Are Rangers really powerful?

[greysenn]

Guess that should've been prefaced by
"If you're in a good party, and your thief is good"

Daggers get the same piercing damage attribute that arrows do I believe.

It dosen't mean that the thf will always win, but I've certainly seen it happen. It's even more likely if you have semi sporadic pulls. Thf starts fight off with a 350 sata, By the time ranger starts to catch up and actually beat that damage, the thf has the tp to throw down a 450-550 viper bite.

[bonovoxpsu]

Originally posted by Cat
It's statements like this that make me avoid reading forums entirely... Most of these people spend so much time in the forums they never play the actual game.

That quote above is pretty strong considering how often SATA fails because of lag or some moron in the party not paying attention or not doing his job.

Q:How often in a party does the DD take hate off the tank at the start of a fight?
A:ALL THE TIME. Oh I'm sorry Mr. Thf you wanted to do Piercing arrow >> Viper Bite? OK oops ur SA attack failed because I took hate with Piercing arrow... thats ok next time stand behind the tank and when I take hate you can SATA him... ooops that time I didn't do enough damage and you wasted your SA.... Oh that time you waited too long after my WS to ready SATA.... Oh that time I missed my piercing arrow... Oh that time the Pld moved to cover the WHM... That time the 3rd DD used his WS and botched it... see my point? This happens all the time at lower levels by the time it stops RNG have Sidewinder (after sidewinder RNG take the lead easily).

You would have tp hit your SATA nearly 100% of the time to compare to a ranger's damage even then its gonna be a close call. And if you are XPing against flying monsters (like rangers SHOULD do) you won't parse more damage. NOTE: Flying mobs take almost double dmg from ranged attacks. (for those who didn't know) A thf can use ranged attack too but they will miss a lot more than a RNG because of gear bonuses and they won't hit as hard either.

THF make great support characters for a party I'd love to see a THF use Acid bolts for me so I wouldn't have to switch weapons and loose TP. THF skillchains are awsome and the extra treasure is nice especially if you fight HNMs. I wonder how many people realise that the only reason they have that scorpion harness, nobles tunic or whatever is because a thf was in their alliance and that venomous claw/shinning cloth(etc) wouldn't have dropped otherwise.

I love a good thf some of the best players in midgarsormyr play thf and they have earned quite aname for themselves and have strong followings. But I don't feel they were meant to be primarily damage dealers and the fact you even posted that probably means you didn't play your ranger properly.

why are you so offended with what he says?

he's pretty much right. at least from 15-20 as i've lvl'd my drk, thf's do some serious damage with sneak attack - i'd say so far they do the most damage. they're definitely up there so far and it was quite suprising to see this first hand.

he did state that it was his opinion, he did state with a good tank... and you jump all over him and get all defensive.... its almost like you took what he said as a personal attack.

settle down, beavis. :sweat:

[poweryoga]

which is why the rng is subbing /war if they pt with thieves...

piercing arrow/sidewinder doesn't turn mob? Voke it.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Based on different parsing I have done with my THF and my RNG, I honestly think that from 15-~45ish THF is the most damaging DD in the game, but doesn't get much credit for it. (note: From 30-32 a gun RNG would probably outdamage THF.)

This assumes a party where THF is allowed to do max damage. Specifically, I mean a party with a good tank (one that doesn't need SATA to do their job). In these parties, THF can drop two SA(+TA) in the first 30 seconds or so (one on tank, one on other DD), and it's really hard for any other DD to overcome that huge lead.

Hm... overall, I can see where you're coming from. However, so many disclaimers have to be slapped on this setup that it's almost irrelevant.

I agree that THF can be a pretty good DD at low-mid levels *if* they set up SATA correctly and efficiently every fight (i.e. use SATA before monster comes so he can hit it, then immediately SATA again). I think at these levels SATA does around 250-300 and SATA viper does 400-500 right? (my numbers might be a bit off) Considering how RNG WS primarily suck at these levels and barrage is only 4 arrows max, I can see how a properly played THF with a smart PT can occasionally outdamage RNG.

However, this requires not only a good THF, tank, and other members (not to turn the mob at the wrong moments), but SATA also has a one minute timer. In my multi RNG PTs in Garlaige, we pull so fast that often times we were fighting 2 monsters at a time, or the 2nd monster would be available right after 1st monster dies (due to puller leaving early). In this case SATA won't always be ready, and from what I've seen, in hectic pulling parties (which are the best IMO), RNG will usually outdamage THF.

Anyway I can see where you're coming from, but I sure haven't experienced it. And the higher level you get, the DD capabilities of THF decrease noticeabily with respect to other jobs, so I guess the point is moot at later game anyway. I have some great friends who are THF, but I don't see much point using a THF post 66 than a DRK/THF esp. with a PLD tank. Maybe THF is still better than DRK/THF post 66 with NIN tank, but with PLD, THF seems to get the short end of the stick.

In closing I think THF may be as damaging as RNG with certain conditions, but it's so situational, which is probably why they don't get the credit you think they deserve.

[Kesai]

I don't really Pt much with thf's but even at 60 a drk/thf using soul eater + guillotine tricked onto me followed by sidewinder/slug shot makes a mob dead, and I can actually get hate back after the sidewinder in that situation if the mob didn't die for some reason.

:spin:

Anyways to address the original topic, yes rangers are that powerful, given enough pulls having a good rng is the diff between a 4k hr pt and a 7k+ hr pt

[Macht]

In a party with a /THF (which I usually end up in a LOT). I've had RNG/NIN with me being RNG/WAR and really if you want to see insaine damage RNG/WAR is definatly it. A RNG/NIN just can't obtain that damage a RNG/WAR pulls off so easily.

BCNMs are great to test against, and I've been to many BCNM 40s with 3 other RNGs the other two usually RNG/NIN and me RNG/WAR. Once you slap on the meat mithkabob and berserk the damage you do compared them is crazy. To this day I've yet to see a RNG/NIN go to a BCNM 40 and peak at 800 damage with barrage, for a RNG/WAR though it's quite common.

In the statement of how powerful RNGs are I have seen some RNGs solo EM monsters. The combination is simple enough but seems to take some luck and starting that fight with some TP. The pattern basically is Sidewinder > Barrage > Sidewinder with a RNG/WAR the damage from that is just plain deadly since a RNG/WAR can basically take their current attack power and push it up about 62% were the best a RNG/NIN can do is 21%. Hell in terms of just damage RNG/DRK can outdo a RNG/NIN since they are capable of peaking their attack power to 36% even though it's brief.

Really though which ever way you go RNG is still quite powerful, even if you went with something like RNG/BRD the damage output you do as RNG is going to make you a good DD still. Honestly though in terms of Raw power a BLM is truely top, but to really push that extreeme power to become practical they would have to horde all methods of MP Regen they can get their hands on as well as all the defense they can get. Then they would be able to spit out crazy damage that could put a RNG to shame.

[Timoham]

RNG vs. THF? THF can outdamage a RNG with a good party easily. I've been in a group with a thief who was doing 500 damage SATAVB followed by a 250+ renkei. Very impressive. On command though, RNG gets the crown. Barrage or sidewinder can probably outdamage just about anything any other class can throw out there (except SMN of course).

RNG/WAR vs RNG/NIN? In anything but exp situations these days I'm /NIN for the little accuracy boost I get and blink. Since I pull, it saves MP on the mage types for greater chaining justice. I also tend to get hate more than the RNG/WAR in the static simply because he's using xbow. But he tosses out a slugshot with darksteel bolts and does comparable damage to me if he's berserked with a damn xbow :x That's about the only time he's able to grab hate. But BCNMs, AFs, Questing, etc. it's all about the /WAR for berserk. You won't have accuracy troubles with barrage or sidewinder on most non xp mobs so berserk adds a lot more to it.

But mostly, go with whatever fits your playstyle and what you enjoy. I used to love /WAR in exp parties but started to get my ass kicked too much so I went with /NIN

[imac2much]

Timmy, what's so impressive about a 500 SATAVB+250 distortion? I'm guessing you're talking about crabs for your level, a single slugshot with gun or sidewinder with ebow does 650-750 damage... and we get TP a ton faster than THF as well. I don't see how SATAVB once every two fights (at the rate 3-4rng pt kill things) is even comparable to RNG damage.

Esp when we start fighting weak defense cheese like raptors, SATAVB still only does like 750 while my sidewinders do 1k+ and I can do them more often, plus my regular DoT is higher, plus we have barrage. I don't find THF our level impressive at all.

To clear things up, I never meant to say RNG/NIN (or any job combo at all) was the "totally most damaging"... what I meant was RNG/NIN is probably most damaging on many pt situations *without* being detrimental to the team. Sure RNG/DRK can be powerful, but how long would they last? Plus LR only lasts 30 seconds. RNG/NIN can go all out and tank a lot without being too detrimental to PT thanks to utsu.

I have both subs leveled because there are certain occasions where /WAR wins out, but I just think in 3-4 RNG PT, all RNG should sub /NIN, since we're passing hate so much anyway. My two cents.

[Tokitoki]

This coming from a THF, RNG out-damage us no mater what... Unless you dont get a bunch of idiots through the noob areas (1-45 though 45 you should have good groups) they always will be better, if you dont get noobs then we might be able to stand up to them more, maybe pass them by a bit, but you do more damage per arrow and your WS arent something to be looked over.

[Timoham]

Should have made myself more clear. This was before I had sidewinder :p She was doing SATAVB twice a fight and outdamaging both the RNGs over time generally. When we got sidewinder, that changed :x

[Cat]

why are you so offended with what he says?

Because anyone who says THF can consistantly out damage a RNG has brain damage.

Most Knives are slash damage not piercing BTW.

Scanareo though

Ranger pulls: 150 dmg
THF sets up for trick attack
Ranger hits:150+150dmg
THF tricks onto tank and tank vokes THF:250 dmg
thf jerks off for 30 seconds
Ranger hits 4 more times or so and does a weaponskill
RNG: 150x6= 900 + 200 weaponskill 1100 dmg lets be nice say the thf has 100 tp which he might
THF tricks with viper bite for 400dmg
well give him the reverbication credit too 250dmg and 100 dmg in melee dmg 400+250+100=750 dmg

THF has 750 dmg
RNG has 1100 dmg

and I was more than nice to the thf considerirng most thf dont get 100 tp in 30 seconds and the RNG didn't use any Job Abils

Also the crazy talk about the RNG/WAR that only works at lower levels. What you gain in extra berzerk damage you will loose in your WHM's MP resting time and you lowered hit rate with sidewinder. I've pt'd with RNG/WARs i still out damage them its just that every once in a while they do an insane sidewinder and can't drop hate. then they get raped by attacks like Sickle Claw, Final Sting, Jet Stream, double attacks... These are attacks that even PLD fear at times. How are you going to take them with lowered defense? Also berzerk can't be used that often. You dont see me pulling barrage against the THF in my example...

[tdh]

I won't sit here and deny that a THF can do a ton of damage. I won't even argue if you wanted to say that THF is a DD who supports the hate system. But I'm not about to agree to THFs being the best DD from Lv.15-45.

They do great burstable damage, but over all damage, I don't even think they're worthy of a podium appearance.

Even with SATA+Viper Bite and SATA's, a DRK/THF at those levels can make up, equal, and pass that damage.

SATA+Viper Bite = 550 (Most I've ever seen in an EXP party)
SATA = 350 (Again, most I've ever seen)

SA+Slice = 470 (Most I've ever done as DRK/THF in EXP party)
SA = 275 (Again, most I've ever done)

After that the THF's up 900dmg to 745dmg. But now factor in melee damage, as DRK/THF I can make up that 155dmg in two swings of my Scythe. (75-95dmg - obviously at Lv.45 and not Lv.15 lol) So my best, Vs their best and two extra hits. Games tied. Factor in the rest of the melee work, and nobody would argue that a DRK is way ahead of a THF.

I know this is quite some ways off from the original inquiry, but I had to comment on that notion.

[Cat]

Yes, thank you. Very much agreed. DRK/THF are very good damage dealers that seem overlooked at times because they don't do all their damage at once. And souleater..... And a good DRK can stun a mob and buy me just enough time to recast utsusemi.

I'm becomming a forum whore because I can't play ffxi at work:dead:
I'll post some vids here tonight if I can find time to show what I'm talking about a bit...

[greysenn]

If you add about 100 to 150 to the thf's SA/TA and viperbite, then figure that they were doing probably 1/3rd the damage I was in melee, then you can see where I'm coming from.
Ranger is only hitting 120ish in that lvl range as well.

I think damage from thf melee is way underestimated at mid level range in general. I don't dispute that they are the weakest melee class without Sa/Ta, I just don't think it's as weak as everyone wants to make it out to be. When you start fighting hard shelled stuff in the 50's, then the arguement for no damage may hold.

Anycase, we can dispute scenarios all day, but I distinctly remember the thf giving me a damn good run for my money damagewise that party, if not beating me.

[Tokitoki]

Originally posted by tdh
SA+Slice = 470 (Most I've ever done as DRK/THF in EXP party)
SA = 275 (Again, most I've ever done)

Thats really high damage for a lv what? 45 you said? i was confused about that Anyway, SA is only a crit of your normal swing, which means that that 76-95 dmg would only be 152-~200, not ~275. And SA+Slice would only really do that damage with a good boost in TP, 200 ish? and how often do you see that? You're also basing this off a "most ever seen" not average damage on each.

550 seems a little low for around 45 though, not sure what lvl you're talking about though, but even as an Elv THF i did around 600 at that lvl, high of upper 600s. Might be brought down to gear on the THF though, ive always been pretty stacked with DEX and AGI.

Not trying to say you're wrong, I personally think we should do some parser tests as far as damage goes. Since thats all parsers can really do.