Are Rangers really powerful?

[sylvanas]

right, if youre hunting wyvernpoacher dont forget that EES is blinkable ^^b

[imac2much]

Yep I get the same results as Cayne when I'm in a PT with non-RNG DD's. I've only been in two of those, and I forgot to save one of the parses. The one I forgot to save had a DRK and a BLM, and I did about 2x damage as both of them.

The one I remembered to save had PLD, THF, BLM, RNG, BRD, RDM:

http://www.saiyajin20.svhosting.net/10-15-2004.html

Oyuki - THF
Maynard - PLD
Pythian - BRD
Tojo - BLM
Lobonator - RDM

A well equipped RNG will do about 2x as much damage as a well equipped DRK or BLM from what I've seen. I really don't see how DoT's, absorbs, etc will make up for that brute force damage. I think it may change 66+ when we make more use of level 3 skillchains, but I know multi RNG PT's do very well at high levels as well (maybe Cayne can contribute more on this end).

[greysenn]

Bah, I still see any overpowered problem coming from unlimited blink ability being gay (particularly post 74). Rangers Z rank evasion, low hp, and nonexistant defensive skills are perfectly (or at least relatively) covered for with the temporary invincibility blink provides to most attacks. I'm willing to bet BLM can lay down more damage until they run out of mp, they just can't sub ninja and pretend like they're not being attacked.

Fira has a nice workaround for it though, gravity + kite.

On another note, mostly blm parties are pretty scary too. The stuff you're fighting usually incinerates in the first or second volley of spells.

[imac2much]

That's true too. 5 BLM+RDM PTs or 4 BLM+RDM+BRD PTs are crazy in action. So are 5 SMN + BRD PTs post 70. However, these are a lot harder to set up than 2-3 RNG PTs.

You're right... maybe a BLM can do more damage if they wanted to go all out. But you already stated the problem with this: they have no reliable defense. RNG can blink away the hate (even before 74 utsu: ichi is a good 6 shadows if used properly, enough for the tank to get hate back or for the multiple RNG to kill the enemy). The other problem is that BLM is limited by his MP. So what if the BLM goes all out in one battle to do slightly more damage than the RNG? You'll now have to wait a bit for the BLM to gain MP back, especially if he really did go all out. RNG don't need to wait for anything. The only reason we'd EVER need time between pulls is to recast utsusemi...

Also if you are talking about optimal high amounts of damage in a certain situation (in your case, BLM has lots of MP + won't die from getting hate), RNG still win. I doubt a BLM can do as much damage in the amount of time a RNG can do slugshot -> barrage with hellfire -> slugshot.

[greysenn]

I'm not so sure how it would turn out with blm/rdm if they threw in their 2 hour. Some of those spells bust out some major pain.

Anycase, I always hate seeing these comparisons because blm's uses in party is rarely straight up raw damage. In "normal" parties you use them for heavy damage on command when the SC isn't ready, not to mention crowd control, back up healing, escape/teleport, spell interruption etc.

[imac2much]

I know I know... RNG are the least versatile of the DD's. But I'm just speaking about brute force damage, and RNG win big time.

I agree you lose a lot if you do multi RNG, as in crowd control etc, but that can also be compensated since multi RNG PT only do well with a BRD.. and BRD = horde lullaby. But yeah you don't have escape if fit hits the shan, but in good parties this is a small price to pay. Multi RNG PT can still stall adds by pulling it with an arrow while blink is up to absorb some hits, running away then shadowbinding. Sleep bolts/arrows also work well if you spam it, although this isn't as efficient as having a mage just sleep it.

Anyways, I'm not exactly saying RNG is better than all other DD jobs in all ways, because like I said in a previous post, most other DD jobs have some unique element they bring to the table as well. However, I find it ridiculous to believe a 4 DRK + tank + support PT or 4 DRG + tank + support PT will be able to rake in 8k+ xp/hour. Like I said, it's all about the end item, and in the end I feel RNG wins the race.

I may be biased since I currently play a RNG, but this is how I felt after 74 levels of PLD as well, so I have experience playing in various different PT setups.

And one note about BLM 2hr: I agree it blows RNG 2hr out of the water :sweat:

[dworkin]

i was in a pt with a JP rng. i used guillotine, an he used sidewinder. i was doing oddly enough about 600-750 on it. the rng was doing about the same. anyways what i noticed the rng doing every 3 minutes was cool.. after hed sidewinder. mob turn to him. i then cast stun long enough for rng to get back behind pld an use barrage. then pld would use cover.. nothing like watching the rng doing 800+ damage off a weapon skill, then hiding behind a pld for 300+ barrage damage..


rng's sometimes get over locked like drks do. nothing like a rng using def lowering arrows. so the other melee can take advantage off it. plus i dont see rngs spam arrows like the logs usually show. those i team u with keep it steady enough not to pull hate. but long enough to have the tp when you do..

[truong]

imac2much: In a standard PT, RNG/DRK is the single best DD duo. Nothing kills shit faster on chain #5 than Arching > Spin > Barrage > Soul Eater lol. Guaranteed 5. But yeah, a PT of multiple RNG is stupidly good, but you don't see that everyday. And it's kinda dangerous too, considering one fuck up = dead RNG. But I agree, multiple RNG PT is the best.

And BLM because, since a team of RNG/DRK does so much damage on its own, the BLM would only need to nuke (and MB) when it's SC time. The rest of the time they can cure, freeing up a slot for RMD, cuz a WHM really isn't necessary in this format. BLM, BRD and PLD are more than enough curing. Though this PT requires everyone to be skilled and know exactly what to do.

[truong]

and also to imac2much: RNG may do 2x the damage then DRK at your level, but come level 65+, the gap between the 2 is a lot closer. SA/TA+Spin =

[wstussyb]

on sunday I was in a nin/rng/rng/rng/rng/rng pt ( 6th rng came after blm left) with semitry as nin and flufflykitty was another rng, forgot who the other ppl were, 2 using xbows 3 using bows,
in Gar. Cit on bats we(well I got) did 11,307 exp in a hour and 15 min, every rng was rng/nin, with the few beetles that we killed the avg hiot rate on beetles was 45-61 while on bats it was 86-115, with the hate passing around and basically no one taking dmg a large amount of time I keep thinking this is too good to be true, and will never see anything like this again
Only downside was biting the dust leaving, with tonko up a stink still attacked me from a distance, thought they arggo via site :mad:

[imac2much]

Haha truong, at first I thought you were saying the job combo RNG/DRK, and I just had a big :confused: on my face. But I agree, RNG + DRK/THF is great post 66... in fact as a PLD I always liked RNG/WAR + DRK/THF in these kinds of PTs. SATA Spin does so much tricked damage, esp with the light bonus, that RNG can go all out and not worry about aggro. RNG/NIN can't always turn the mob from a good PLD, so RNG/WAR is best in this case.

I agree with lvl 3 skillchains the differences will become a lot smaller, but the differences will still exist. At high levels I guess it depends on what you're xping on, since obviously MNKs will outdamage RNG by far in KRT. But for the majority of the game, I'd say levels 1 ~ 65 definitely, a well equipped RNG will always do significantly more damage than another DD. I won't speak for 66+ since as PLD I don't always keep all my damage filters off, but I do notice we killed things a lot faster in multi RNG PTs, even taking into account the fact we didn't use lvl 3 skillchains. It sucks when the DRK/THF with optihat, hauberk, 2xsnipers, thick set still struggles to get 100% TP in one battle (and I have 150-200% TP by the time he has 100%). By the time a DRK/THF has 100%, the RNG could potentially have 300%... meaning at least 2 sidewinders. Food for thought.

wstussyb, yeah, those levels are the easiest to get high xp. That was the only place I got consistent 300 xp chain 5 and 6's before the patch (the one that increased possible xp... but then again at that level 300 is still the max). 2 RNGs can basically duo those IT garliage bats, NIN isn't needed whatsoever. Honestly the best PT would probably be 5 RNG + BRD for some paeon and healing, since you just pass the hate around. I'm not surprised you got so much xp there... not to mention single bat types are the easiest monster types in the game IMO even for non RNG. After a while you lose the chance to xp on those though...

[Cat]

Theres been a lot discussed since I posted last so I'll cover some of it for now...

Comment: BLM do more dmg than rng if they go all out on a fight
ok we're assuming all JA's and MP are full so to be fair the ranger has all JAs and TP full and we can run through this. I can't say much about the blm but the ranger does the hat trick combo I posted earlier for at least 3500 dmg (sidewinder barrage sidewinder) usually doesn't leave the mob with much left. 4 more shots and a 3rd slug shot can be fired. But the mob is dead unless the only DD in the party is the RNG similarly the BLM can do fireIV blizagaIII and aeroIII for like 2500 dmg and prolly even another aga spell for 3500 to match the ranger though i doubt he can get all 4 spells off in the time it takes to fire 2 slugshots and 1 barrage.
However some monsters rangers just arent the best choice for namely skeletons but I fought aquarius and it was rediculous how low my damage was because of his incredible defense i mabye did 1/4 my normal damage. I'm sure a BLM would trounce me on that fight. Just know where your pt is going and make the best choice from who is available to pt (isn't that what we all do anyway?) If you are really torn between the two jobs pick BLM its cheaper to level and you probably get just as many invites.

As for Multi-ranger parties: I seem to have an addiction for them and I still throw a BLM into the parties from time to time when i feel I dont have enough DD i've never tried more than 4 rangers though but the best pt Ive had in a long time was RNG RNG RNG RNG BRD WHM (a bard really compliments rangers well) I really think when using rangers at high levels a tank is optional for two reasons 1. If your DD are doing their job the tank can't get hate off you. 2. Utsusemi
This party configuration was a lot of fun because you can do lots of damage and it felt a bit risky with no tank and it takes an hour or so to get used to. In my experience rangers are always looking for other rangers to pt with.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
But for the majority of the game, I'd say levels 1 ~ 65 definitely, a well equipped RNG will always do significantly more damage than another DD.

Based on different parsing I have done with my THF and my RNG, I honestly think that from 15-~45ish THF is the most damaging DD in the game, but doesn't get much credit for it. (note: From 30-32 a gun RNG would probably outdamage THF.)

This assumes a party where THF is allowed to do max damage. Specifically, I mean a party with a good tank (one that doesn't need SATA to do their job). In these parties, THF can drop two SA(+TA) in the first 30 seconds or so (one on tank, one on other DD), and it's really hard for any other DD to overcome that huge lead.

One might argue that that is "defeating" THF's purpose as hate controller, but ultimately, hate control is only useful if it results in faster exp. If THF SATAs on both tank and DD, then they essentially cancel out (from a hate generation standpoint) and the Tank:DD dynamic is just like a normal non-THF party.

[greysenn]

Hate generation at that point is of course, irrelivant because the mob is dead :D

But yeah, setup properly a good Thf is probably king from 30 to at 49 or so.

[Cat]

Based on different parsing I have done with my THF and my RNG, I honestly think that from 15-~45ish THF is the most damaging DD in the game

It's statements like this that make me avoid reading forums entirely... Most of these people spend so much time in the forums they never play the actual game.

That quote above is pretty strong considering how often SATA fails because of lag or some moron in the party not paying attention or not doing his job.

Q:How often in a party does the DD take hate off the tank at the start of a fight?
A:ALL THE TIME. Oh I'm sorry Mr. Thf you wanted to do Piercing arrow >> Viper Bite? OK oops ur SA attack failed because I took hate with Piercing arrow... thats ok next time stand behind the tank and when I take hate you can SATA him... ooops that time I didn't do enough damage and you wasted your SA.... Oh that time you waited too long after my WS to ready SATA.... Oh that time I missed my piercing arrow... Oh that time the Pld moved to cover the WHM... That time the 3rd DD used his WS and botched it... see my point? This happens all the time at lower levels by the time it stops RNG have Sidewinder (after sidewinder RNG take the lead easily).

You would have tp hit your SATA nearly 100% of the time to compare to a ranger's damage even then its gonna be a close call. And if you are XPing against flying monsters (like rangers SHOULD do) you won't parse more damage. NOTE: Flying mobs take almost double dmg from ranged attacks. (for those who didn't know) A thf can use ranged attack too but they will miss a lot more than a RNG because of gear bonuses and they won't hit as hard either.

THF make great support characters for a party I'd love to see a THF use Acid bolts for me so I wouldn't have to switch weapons and loose TP. THF skillchains are awsome and the extra treasure is nice especially if you fight HNMs. I wonder how many people realise that the only reason they have that scorpion harness, nobles tunic or whatever is because a thf was in their alliance and that venomous claw/shinning cloth(etc) wouldn't have dropped otherwise.

I love a good thf some of the best players in midgarsormyr play thf and they have earned quite aname for themselves and have strong followings. But I don't feel they were meant to be primarily damage dealers and the fact you even posted that probably means you didn't play your ranger properly.