Are Rangers really powerful?

[Cat]

Because last time I parsed I only had 6 fights and the data was dismissed and because it was requested of me. I will post some data I got today in Quifm level 22. Seraphane also used ranged attacks and had maxed marksmanship however he used acid bolts. We had a lot of members come and go and I'm not trying to prove a point here about RNG vs THF really... I'm just offering some data I parsed to be considered. Our THF was a rank 7 who knew his way around the game and I was very pleased with his performance. This parse im using power bow+1 and beetle arrows the THF uses sword and fast blade on sneak attack (I think ) which would hit for over 100 dmgmy ranged attacks hit from 40-70 around 45-55 90% of the time 60+ after acid bolt.

Seraphane (22 THF/WAR)
Total Fights: 23
Average Damage: 168.74
Average Percent: 26.92
Average Accuracy: 54.91
Estimated DPS:

Cayne (22 SAM/RNG)
Total Fights: 31
Average Damage: 245.97
Average Percent: 38.37
Average Accuracy: 65.66
Estimated DPS:

Kyouryoku (22 THF/WAR)
Total Fights: 8
Average Damage: 96.38
Average Percent: 14.19
Average Accuracy: 68.75
Estimated DPS:

[imac2much]

First, I admit my wrong in my previous post. It does matter that you said "you think.." The way you have been arguing against all the opinions and counterevidence in the past 20+ pages made me assume you were stating your claim as fact. But that was my wrong, so I take the blame there.

But on to other matters:

No, actually, I'm claiming that in the logs I had, THF had the biggest relative damage lead. Most of the rest of the 20+ pages consist of me trying to defend the POSSIBILITY of such a result against everyone who says it WILL NOT HAPPEN unless the RNG is somehow gimped; i.e. I am trying to explain HOW THF can outdamage RNG.

As I've said several times already, if you just thought "In my parses I think my THF outdamages my RNG 15-45", who would have complained? This hasn't been what you have been arguing, so don't try to act all innocent all of a sudden and make excuses.

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
If you don't believe me, fine. I properly and completely qualified my statement to begin with. Based on the logs I saw, I think THF outdamages RNG from 15-45. Other people agreed with me even before ranged was mentioned, and did not mention ranged at all in their reasoning.

You are clearly saying here that you think that THF is the most damaging DD 15-45, based on your logs. You are NOT saying "it is possible for THF to outdamage everyone in the PT" or "it is possible for THF to outdamage the RNG in a PT." This has NOT been what you've been claiming, so stop changing stances now just because there is actually hard evidence to disprove your claim. Once again, your claim is "THF is most damaging DD 15-45" with the special conditions you provided (some of them several pages later). Lynsy's parses pass all conditions:
1) 3melee/3mage party
2) THF tricks onto both tank and other DD
3) level 15-45
4) good players who know what they're doing

On a side note, it's funny how you cite other people's opinions when they agree with you, but now in the more recent pages with more people bringing up solid evidence and personal experience that disagrees with your claim, you ignore them. Oh right, we all have "an axe to grind."

NINETEEN pages ago, I made it crystal... f*cking... clear... that I was talking about a 3/3 party where THF is tricking on the other DD. (I think this is a common scenario, you don't.) Do you, or do you not, think that THF can do the most damage in that scenario? Because for at least TEN PAGES, no one would even agree that THF COULD outdamage a RNG (without /ra).

First, I never said 3/3 isn't common. What I said SEVERAL times is that scenario A + scenario B combined occurs more than scenario C.
Scenario A : 4 melee/2 mage with RNG
Scenario B : 3 melee/3 mage without RNG
Scenario C : 3 melee/3 mage with RNG

If you can't read, fine, but don't blame me for not repeating myself another five times.

Second, of course ANY job CAN potentially outdamage everyone in a PT. THF can probably outdamage RNG if he uses club (SATA True Strike) when fighting bones. What's your point? This hasn't been about "the possibility for THF to outdamage everyone." You have actively been claiming that, given your conditions, THF *IS* the most damaging DD 15-45. Are you claiming otherwise?

Yeah, it's just my ego. Which is why Clyde also said...

Cute. Take clyde's quote from page 19 or something, which was addressing a totally separate parse. The THF's in those previous parses were never explained to be good or bad. Lynsy specifically said in her latest parse that the THF in her PT was one of the best players she's known, who is both a 70+ PLD and DRK and knows what he's doing. Clyde didn't respond with your quote to the latest specific parse that we have all been talking about (because this one specifically addresses all your conditions). Grasping for straws again?

This is the problem I see here. For the past 20+ pages, you have been claiming this:
Given the conditions you've outlined, THF will outdamage RNG 15-45.

Now you are saying this:
Given the conditions you've outlined, it is possible for THF to outdamage RNG 15-45.

Unfortunately, these are not the same thing. I would never have argued with the latter claim. It is possible for many things to happen in this game. Given good players, it is still possible for a BLM to outdamage RNG in many PT. Sure the BLM may die a lot and/or it may require ballad1+2+refresh+blackcloak and other optimal equipment, but it can happen. Would I claim that this is always the case? No.

[Tokitoki]

I do agree with you on that Dan but you do have consider that RNG have to limit themselves more so than THF becuase THF is able to transfer hate to a primary or secondary tank. You really cant eliminate the hate factor because then RNG will obviously win, but we are talking in a PT sense, which job will do more?

RNG going all out will die, while a THF going all out will survive, though the primary/secondary tank may die because they constantly have the hate. So it ends up the RNG dying as a result of too much hate during the battle and a THF being able to keep going on during that same battle. At low lvls the battles are short either way but in Crawlers and Garliage etc etc the mobs will hit too hard for a RNG to try to go all out unless they are an incredible blink tnak with only Ichi >.>

[Lynsy]

Ive never died because of hate control on RNG...ever.
And I have no hate control ;x. This is probably due, in no small part, to the fact that I have primarily been maintank (used drain bolts, was good fun--try it some time) or used a MNK main tank who does 15-30% less dmg than I do (slightly less to a bit more than most THFs Ive PTed with, BTW) and provokes and such for added hate. I used a PLD tank last PT...I did have major hate control issues then--he seemed pretty good, but, um, the MNK tank thing worked a lot better.

[imac2much]

Hm.. interesting. I almost always xp with a NIN (ethreal, deft or toan) so I'm not too used to other tanks. I've PT'ed with 2 PLD's or so, and I have to admit in a selfish way I prefer PLD. I can go all out more thanks to cover, and they generally have better hate holding than NIN, even well played and well equipped NINs like the aforementioned ones. However, they also take a ton more damage and IMO it would be impossible for them to tank the IT++'s that we fight every day.

I've tried a 3 RNG+MNK PT a few days ago, and it didn't work out too well. In my parses, the MNK only did 1/3~1/2 of each RNG's damage, and when he voked, he got hit for 120-150's generally. And this was on skimmers and steelshells at lv 62... With my NIN SPT we fought Darters at this time so I can only imagine they would hit the MNK a ton harder. On a side note, the MNK barely outdamaged the NINs I PT with. The MNK was doing an average of 630.76 damage per battle on skimmers and steelshells, whereas our NIN does an average of 605.22 damage per battle on darters and processionaires. Sometimes I think NIN damage is underrated... when they spam all their ninjutsu, especially elemental ni's, they seem to inflict some respectable damage.

What monsters are you fighting at the moment Lynsy, and how much does your MNK get hit for? I guess MNK tank would work at low-mid levels when everything hits for relatively low damage (mandragoras, beetles, crabs), but it might be a problem when upgrading to pugils, raptors, birds, crawlers, scorpions, coeurls perhaps? I don't know, I just can't imagine a MNK tanking efficiently in my PT setup, so I'm curious to know more details about your MNK tank :p

On a sidenote, nsx and I have died several times due to hate control (him more than me.. go galka!). This happens when we both unload barrage or sidewinder when monster is 50% and one of us misses :p A few unlucky crits and double hits and that's taru mincemeat.

[Tokitoki]

We're talking about 15-45 where all tanks suck and there isnt any good armor to keep you alive while fighting pugils/crabs/crawlers etc etc. Maybe my tanks are just worse than all other servers but i cant hit the mob more than 6 times in a fight and expect to live >.>

[Lynsy]

I personally believe that a MNK could tank 1-75 and be at no major disadvantage to PLDs, NINs or WARs given you are using each of them in the right situation. Where one shines, almost by design, another will fail.
Im making a seperate thread, however, because this one is off-topic enough as is.
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sho...threadid=49454

[jinshyro]

rugal,
I played my nin to lv 55 and im wondering how you were able to xp on IT+++. I find it very hard to evade hard ITs.. how does your static nin able to tank em? what was his equipment based on? evasion, atk or accuracy?

another thing, how much xp you get is largely based how how much hate ur tank can get and how fast you kill the mob. so how was your nin able to hold so much hate with 2 rngs in the pt with no thf?

i made a pt at lv 54 with me nin, war/nin, blm, blm, blm, rdm before. the blm had to hold a lot back because i wasnt able to hold enough hate for them to go all out. usually at the end of the fight the blms had about 80% mp left. so i just decided for them to just mb freeze an was able to get around 5k/hr

so my question is what am i doing wrong to be able to hold enough hate to get 7k+/hr. i do use the the ninjitsu enfeebles as well as mb with the elmentals. i also have 2 snipers and a mermaids with eris earrings as well.

[imac2much]

First off, I have only one constant member in my spt, and it is our friendly death-happy taru RNG Nsxtasy. Our SPT started probably around 40ish or so, and it included me, nsxtasy, and ethreal (NIN + 2 RNG). However, allow me to fast forward to level 50, which is when the new xp caps come into play and really allow for the huge amount of xp that a good pt setup can obtain barring lack of spawn.

NIN tank allows a PT to fight monsters much higher than normal. This is especially true with certain monster types like the moblins and such in Movalopolis.. I suspect they hit about 1.5-2x harder than goblins same level, but also don't have that annoying bomb toss. At the level we fought these at (around 55), PLD will die there so fast; even at higher levels.

I think our tanks have a typical NIN build (fuma kyahan, ochido kote, etc) plus a scorpion harness when they reached the level to equip that.

Our general PT setup consisted of NIN, 2RNG, BRD, random healers. Much of the time, the people we randomly invited sucked royally, or were just extremely frustrating to be around, and eventually we either booted them out, or tried to bear with it. Sometimes we fought with only 5 people (or 5 people plus a random melee that ended up doing 1/5 of my damage, sometimes less than the NIN's damage).. NIN, 2RNG, BRD, healer is enough for our strategy.

Our strategy consists of NIN holding hate for first 50% of the monster's hp. Neither RNG is using WS or barrage yet, just spamming ranged. Sometimes we get a bit of aggro, but the NIN also spams enfeebles, elemental ni's, provokes, whatever, so eventually they'll get aggro back (and we have utsusemi: ichi to hold over until he does). At 50% we unload sidewinders and whatnot... I think this works better with RNG than BLM for a couple reasons:

1) Although both jobs are capable of doing huge damage, RNG can consistently do more damage in a short time span than BLM (sidewinder or barrage).
2) RNG are able to temporarily tank when NIN loses aggro (first part of fight) or at the end when unloading everything to finish off the monster due to utsusemi.
3) RNG aren't limited by MP, meaning no downtime.

Supposedly 4 RNG pt's like this work as well (with no tank), with RNG's juggling utsu around... I tried this before and didn't like it. It was tough for the BRD to keep prelude on everyone (long recast), and wastes a lot of time since everyone is constantly applying utsu: ichi. Also if RNG gets smacked with its paper defense, the WHM will quickly get aggro since they have to heal so much... I much prefer having a NIN to hold hate.

Unfortunately I can't directly answer your question because I don't know too much about the NIN job. It's true that against IT++ it's hard to evade, but as long as they have haste they seem to do ok. BTW we don't use mambo evasion songs, the BRD sings madrigal, minuet, preludes, and ballads (etudes on himself if he needs to lullaby an add).

With enough firepower, it's not too hard to get over 7k xp/hr if there's enough spawn, as long as you are fighting monsters that give you more than 200 base xp. If you just get chain 4's with something that gives 220 xp, that's approximately 220 + 240 + 260 + 280 + 300 = 1300 xp per chain. Each chain takes about 10 minutes, and since the WHM doesn't need to heal too much since we all have utsu, we have very little to no downtime. 1300 x 6 = 7800 xp/hour.

It's not about killing faster than everyone, because sometimes we don't even reach chain 5's (if we forget to save a barrage, or something). The key is just to fight things that give over 200 base xp.

In case you are curious, these are the leveling spots we followed to the best of my knowledge:
49-51: kuftal robber crabs (xp'ed here with 5)
51-53: boyahda robber crabs and knight crawlers
53-55: terrigan robber crabs and goblins
55-56: gustav goblins and robber crabs
56-58: movalopolis moblins and bugbears
58-59: valley of sorrows raptors and perytons
59-60: ru'aun gardens flamingos (xp'ed here with 5)
60-62: boyahda skimmers + steelshells
62-64: boyahda darters and processionaires
64-present: den of rancor tormentors (xp'ed here with 5 near the end)

[jinshyro]

thx rugal thats very informative.

Well when i get back to my nin I'll try to make a pt similiar to that if i can. Ill see how my enfeebles stick to IT+++. Not having blind stick is a real pain. Well hopefully it'd be a lot easier when i can wear scorpion harness. and get hotogisu =( 0/10 on it.

but must finish rng first just need 6 more lvls.

[Thegod]

Originally posted by Cometgreen
Just an example from my playtime last night...

Fighting an IT maze maker in Shakrami:

Blackmage does aero for 33 dmg
Blackmage does fire for anywhere from 4 - 44dmg
Ranger shoots iron arrow for 50 dmg
Ranger uses Piercing Arrow weaponskill for 90 dmg
Ranger uses 2-hour Eagle Eye Shot for 275 dmg

Unfortunately, the ranger also happens to miss quite a bit.

That's just a little example from a ranger in the lower levels (15 at that time). I forgot some of my past damage ratios from beta, but I'll try to remember em or find em. But yes, rangers do a helluva lot of damage.

Cometgreen

my rng is only level 40, but this post is insulting to my level 54 BLM.

yeah rngs are the best DDs in the game, they do dmg by hitting hard with each arrow fired and landed, and do BIG damage with JAs (i.e. barrage) and WS i.e. sindewinder.

BUT by no means are they the all in all rulling DDs of the game, i've seen a level 75 smn and rng comping argus and the smn whooped the rng is dmg (i sat and watched the whole fight.)


I was just doing Af1 for BLM with a friend and we got aggro from a bunch of ooze type mobs (the ones higher level then ooze) the rng level 56 when i was 53 was doing sidewinder over and over, and he could only kill two before i killed the 5 other with fiagraII cast twice.

so i mean in exp parties yeah, but honestly you wont be in exp parties all the time.


thats why i have both rng/nin, blm/red &wht, and mnk/war for when we need to fight the undead and i wanna own some rngs who think crappy gear will still make then #1

[Thegod]

Originally posted by Cometgreen
Just an example from my playtime last night...

Fighting an IT maze maker in Shakrami:

Blackmage does aero for 33 dmg
Blackmage does fire for anywhere from 4 - 44dmg
Ranger shoots iron arrow for 50 dmg
Ranger uses Piercing Arrow weaponskill for 90 dmg
Ranger uses 2-hour Eagle Eye Shot for 275 dmg

Unfortunately, the ranger also happens to miss quite a bit.

That's just a little example from a ranger in the lower levels (15 at that time). I forgot some of my past damage ratios from beta, but I'll try to remember em or find em. But yes, rangers do a helluva lot of damage.

Cometgreen

my rng is only level 40, but this post is insulting to my level 54 BLM.

yeah rngs are the best DDs in the game, they do dmg by hitting hard with each arrow fired and landed, and do BIG damage with JAs (i.e. barrage) and WS i.e. sindewinder.

BUT by no means are they the all in all rulling DDs of the game, i've seen a level 75 smn and rng comping argus and the smn whooped the rng is dmg (i sat and watched the whole fight.)


I was just doing Af1 for BLM with a friend and we got aggro from a bunch of ooze type mobs (the ones higher level then ooze) the rng level 56 when i was 53 was doing sidewinder over and over, and he could only kill two before i killed the 5 other with fiagraII cast twice.

so i mean in exp parties yeah, but honestly you wont be in exp parties all the time.


thats why i have both rng/nin, blm/red &wht, and mnk/war for when we need to fight the undead and i wanna own some rngs who think crappy gear will still make then #1

[imac2much]

Huh?
Who said RNG is the most damaging DD at all times?

It's easy to find certain situations where a job can outdamage a RNG. You're right, on bones MNK outdamages us. On melee-resistant monsters like slimes BLM will very likely outdamage us (especially on things like Sewer Syrup). On low level monsters it is possible for SMN to outdamage us because I believe (though not 100% sure) that avatar damage is totally uncapped (no fSTR and pDIF cap in damage formula).

But I think the point people are making is that *overall* RNG is best DD in the game, and you agree with this. So why do you find the concept "insulting"?

Why is it "insulting" to state some facts or experience? If you show how your BLM outdamaged a RNG on sewer syrup, I sure as hell wouldn't take offense. It's just the way things are.

If you are insulted by the game's mechanics, then take it up with the developers or something, or try not to take it personally.

[Thegod]

he's talking about BLMs VS rngs on maze makers.

everyone knows rngs arnt very good untill level 14 when they get that much needed 5 ranged accuracy...ok say he was level 14.

then he must be comparing himself to a naked BLM, because BLms dont get resisted that much at that low of a level, even naked.

imac why must you reply to my post like this...lol

relax guy i play mnk rng/nin and BLM, the best DDs minus smn late game.

read the line again its sarcastic

my second line was an answer to the original poster's question (how do rng deal the most dmg)

I was just stating, not arguing that rngs arnt the best over all DDs in the game, because they are thats why i chose mithran thats why rng was my first adv job.

...anyway yea rngs are very powerfull, at level 55 they can deal 1k dmg every minute if they so chose, sidewinder is absolutely amazing, and i will never contest that.

but like i said its good to know your stregths and weaknesses, and obviously you do.

good times fellow its all in fun anyway.

dam this is making me wanna go level my nin sub to 37 so i can finally get back to level rng.

[Macht]

Ranger in general are the strongest DD. They can exceed most other jobs on a larger number of monsters in damage. Of course though there are the exceptions and there is one monster type extreemly suseptible to them (Flying types).

The two most common types that RNGs can't do well with are amorphic and undead. Some shell types though a RNG can flux between being the strongest and weakest, especially with those shell types in the CoP areas. When those shell types go defensive a RNGs damage is very pathetic, but if timed right to attack those shell types when they are open a RNG can exceed all others in damage.

This design is perfect and intentional to help keep an importance for many of the jobs, because no single job will exceed everyone in damage in everything they fight.