Are Rangers really powerful?

[DrSerpico]

Hmmm

The specific statement I made was that in a certain level range, I think THF is the most damaging DD, based on the logs I had seen while leveling THF and RNG.

So you go from this (your own explanation of your own statement.) to claiming it's only valid in a VERY controlled environment, i.e. rng being tricked.

You even say yourself that you won't trick the tank twice, because then RNG would easily do MORE damage? Then you are by default LOWERING your party's effectiveness.

In my very first post, I said that THF would be tricking on the tank and the other DD. I'm not going to change that. Subbing WAR and getting the benefit of 2 SATAs on the tank would boost your damage considerably.

Why not trick twice and still let rng rip loose all he wants? I'm guessing because then you would NOT find THF to be the most damaging class within stated level range.

It's one thing to be the better damage dealer, and it's another to be it by limiting others.

To me it looks that you are winning the race just because you poured sand in the other guys engines.

Setting up rules that make it impossible for others to win, and then feeling VERY good about yourself is petty, very very petty. My 5-year old nephew loves doing that.

My bias, not absolute truth stated for noone to contest. I'm not so ignorant as to believe I'm always right no matter what.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
How many times do I have to state and restate the conditions? If you won't use them, then just say so and be done with it. I'm not going to do a test with a different scenario than the one I specified and made crystal clear for almost this entire discussion.

It's kind of hard when you keep making up new conditions on the fly.

Here's a straightforward question: under the scenario that I laid out and clarified, do you expect RNG to outdamage THF?

Hello? Anyone there? Your NEW condition (RNG MUST BE TRICKED ON) effectively LIMITS the amount of damage RNG can do! You are no longer saying THF is the most damaging DD from 15-45! Wasn't that your original claim? You're changing your statements SO much with all your tangents that you actually lost sight of your original claim!!

In my very first post, I said that THF would be tricking on the tank and the other DD. I'm not going to change that. Subbing WAR and getting the benefit of 2 SATAs on the tank would boost your damage considerably.

HAHAHAHAH!!! You NEVER specified that "THF is more damaging than RNG if RNG gets tricked on and limited in damage." You NEVER NEVER NEVER specified this. Are you now adding a brand new condition?

This is hilarious. Keep warping your original claim (THF is most damaging DD from 15-45) until it no longer even resembles the original claim. Your claim now is :
In a PT with THF and RNG, it is possible for THF to outdamage RNG if he tricks onto the RNG.

I would not have argued with that statement. Since you are intentionally limiiting the damage the RNG can do, it's highly possible.

This is NOT the same thing as saying THF is the most damaging DD from 15-45 and does not get credit for it. In fact, it is totally different.

You're not going to admit you're wrong, of course. I wonder what other crap and excuses you're going to come up with.

The best part of your response was how you said you wouldn't allow the RNG/WAR to provoke so that the THF can do sata on thf. What, you're saying this ISN'T common practice? Your freaking claim is "THF is most damaging DD 15-45 but doesn't get credit for it", so why are you now afraid of letting other jobs POTENTIALLY OUTDAMAGING YOU? Why would it matter? You said THF is most damaging DD, and your extra conditions just popped up as people argued with you.

Are you going to admit your claim is wrong now? I know you won't so I guess that's a rhetorical question.

Let's see what crap excuses and new conditions Dan comes up with now.

[imac2much]

Re: Hmmm

Originally posted by DrSerpico
So you go from this (your own explanation of your own statement.) to claiming it's only valid in a VERY controlled environment, i.e. rng being tricked.

You even say yourself that you won't trick the tank twice, because then RNG would easily do MORE damage? Then you are by default LOWERING your party's effectiveness.

This is exactly what he's saying. He's been coming up with extra conditions and claims throughout this thread so much that his original claim (THF is most damaging DD 15-45) isn't even what he's preaching now. But I don't recall any point in this thread where he admitted he was wrong.

Why not trick twice and still let rng rip loose all he wants? I'm guessing because then you would NOT find THF to be the most damaging class within stated level range.

It's one thing to be the better damage dealer, and it's another to be it by limiting others.

You hit it right on the nail and put it in better words than I was able to. I doubt he'll read any of this though so I guess we're just preaching to the choir. (i.e. everyone other than Dan)

[Spider-Dan]

Re: Hmmm

Originally posted by DrSerpico
So you go from this (your own explanation of your own statement.) to claiming it's only valid in a VERY controlled environment, i.e. rng being tricked.

You even say yourself that you won't trick the tank twice, because then RNG would easily do MORE damage? Then you are by default LOWERING your party's effectiveness.

No, what I'm saying is that a scenario where I'm tricking the tank twice is not the same situation I was originally talking about.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
Hello? Anyone there? Your NEW condition (RNG MUST BE TRICKED ON) effectively LIMITS the amount of damage RNG can do!

New condition????

I said that the other DD would be getting tricked on in my VERY FIRST POST! Do I need to quote it AGAIN?

You NEVER specified that "THF is more damaging than RNG if RNG gets tricked on and limited in damage." You NEVER NEVER NEVER specified this.

I specified that the other DD would be getting tricked on from the very start. If the other DD happens to be a RNG, then the RNG will be getting tricked on.

This is hilarious. Keep warping your original claim (THF is most damaging DD from 15-45) until it no longer even resembles the original claim. Your claim now is :
In a PT with THF and RNG, it is possible for THF to outdamage RNG if he tricks onto the RNG.

More accurately stated:

In a PT with THF and [other DD], THF should outdamage [other DD] if he tricks onto [other DD].

If you want to make some other non-multi-RNG party (preferably without a THF, though that's not a requirement) and compare it to a THF's damage in the 3/3 setup, that's perfectly fine with me. Obviously, the parties should be otherwise as similar as possible (i.e. same tank, same mages).

The best part of your response was how you said you wouldn't allow the RNG/WAR to provoke so that the THF can do sata on thf. What, you're saying this ISN'T common practice?

If you want to say that RNG/WAR+THF outdamages THF, I don't necessarily have a problem with that (although under the conditions I stated, I think RNG/WAR would have very little chance of winning in output). In any case, in order for RNG/WAR to do that level of damage, a THF is required, so it's not exactly a knock against THF. RNG/WAR needs THF to do max damage, but THF doesn't need RNG/WAR. Many other DDs can suffice, though RNG is certainly favorable.

Why would it matter? You said THF is most damaging DD, and your extra conditions just popped up as people argued with you.

I have the same "extra conditions" as I had in my fifth post, 15+ pages ago. It's not my fault that you apparently didn't understand exactly what "tricking on other DD" + "3 melee/3 mage" entailed.

[Lynsy]

Ok...So, as promised..I made a 3mage:3melee PT today and let the THF do every other trick attack off me (about even split of normal tricks and VB tricks) and every other off the Tank.
PT set up was as follows:
MNK/WAR, RNG/NIN, THF/NIN, BLM/WHM, BLM/WHM, RDM/BLM and then one BLM left and was replaced by a SMN/WHM.
The THF did not use ranged attacks except to pull, though we both pulled at times. Oh, and the THF is one of the best players I know, period. 75 PLD, 70 DRK/THF, knows his shit.
Sometimes the first trick went on me, sometimes it was the second--either way, the dynamics are the same in the end, right?
____Melee/Ranged|Abilities|_WSs| Totals
RNG: 20,945 ____ | 4,471_|6830 |32,246
THF: 14,178 _____ | 0____ |7527 |21,705

Sooo...In conclusion, even meeting your criteria, I still outdamaged the THF--by a slightly lower margin, but a ridiculously high margin regardless.

Again, this does not include the fact that I was double skill chaining with the MNK and the THF so created more dmg through extra renkei effects and magic bursts.

[imac2much]

Dan you truly are a stubborn fool. I almost feel guilty arguing with you.

Your initial "condition" was tricking onto another DD. I said fine, we'll bring a secondary WAR you can trick on. You can do your damage that way.

Later you brought up 3/3 pt (only because I brought up multi RNG PT), and now you are sticking to that.

Your NEW condition and claim is this:
"In a PT where the THF tricks onto RNG, the THF will do more damage than the RNG."

In a PT with THF and [other DD], THF should outdamage [other DD] if he tricks onto [other DD].

This is TOTALLY different than "THF is most damaging DD 15-45 but doesn't get credit for it."

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
I honestly think that from 15-~45ish THF is the most damaging DD in the game, but doesn't get much credit for it.

Can

You

Comprehend

This?

I even brought up other scenarios (10 times now or more!! You never even read it... hence "selective reading"), citing that parties don't always have BOTH THF AND RNG. So in the condition that they could pick up THF or RNG, who would do more damage? You don't even address this.

Anyways, Lynsy went to the trouble of shutting your great almighty trap. She went under all your inane conditions and RNG still won out by 48.5%.

Please, what are the new conditions and excuses?

"That parse doesn't count because ... um... the RNG was Taru! The THF doesn't use THF as his main job!! The solar flares were acting up! What was your moon phase? I specifically cited the moon phase must be 75%!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[Beastlord]

....and the thread continues. Imac you truly are the "For The Sake of Argueing" King . Lots of great stats and points for this debate though. But it's tough to call.

[imac2much]

This from someone who threatens to find me in real life for something I said in forums, and gives the classic "get a life" quote in the middle of an argument?

Originally posted by Beastlord
Just be happy I dont know you in real life or I might have to pay you a visit for your little comment.

Originally posted by Beastlord
See this is that BS I'm talking bout with the keyboard thugs around here. I wasnt even beefing with no one and I'm getting flamed left and right from Imac's cockstrokers. Whatever. This is only a forum, and Final Fantasy is only a videogame. Go out and get a life guys. This really isnt that serious.

Wait, keyboard thug? Weren't you the one threatening to "pay me a visit"? /gg hypocrite.

Right, I really value your opinion. Figures that someone with your maturity level would side with Dan though. Hypocrites flock together.

How the hell is it tough to call when Lynsy went through the exact same inane, idiotic, and close-minded conditions that Dan added one after another and STILL outdamaged a good THF by almost 50%? Maybe 50% extra damage is too "close" for you to call.

[neighbortaru]

/clap Lynsy

but you know... if that THF was using ranged attacks, he would have owned you...

just playing wit ya

[Beastlord]

Wait, keyboard thug? Weren't you the one threatening to "pay me a visit"? /gg hypocrite.

Right, I really value your opinion. Figures that someone with your maturity level would side with Dan though. Hypocrites flock together.

How the hell is it tough to call when Lynsy went through the exact same inane, idiotic, and close-minded conditions that Dan added one after another and STILL outdamaged a good THF by almost 50%? Maybe 50% extra damage is too "close" for you to call.

Dude I've dropped that sh*t so long ago, I'm not siding with anyone. I was in fact commending you on your argument but once again you read just word deep and bring up old stuff which I was obviously mad about. Like I said I'm not siding with anyone. Just one of those arguments which the only way to satisfy an appropriate winner would be to party with them. Too much factors just make this tough to call on paper.

[Macht]

Wow, this debate seems to of gotten way out hand. Every time I check it's jumped like 5 pages ahead. I'm getting tired of reading the attacks on eachother bits so I'll just comment on the little bits I saw when scanning through that stood out the most.

Between lvls 15-30 I will agree that RNG/NIN has a bit of an advantage damage wise however a RNG/NIN and RNG/WAR are nearly identical. Levels 31-45 RNG/WAR damage wise will always exceed a RNG/NIN if played right. Between these levels you have the safe route of RNG/NIN were you can just fire with less consern of timing. Because of that ability people tend to think that RNG/NIN can do more, however that really isn't true with RNG/NIN you can fire more consistent but the damage is clearly less.

I know that info for a fact from the 25+ BCNM 40 matches I've done with 3 RNG/NINs and me a RNG/WAR. Ever single time we went there NO MATTER HOW WELL EQUIPPED the RNG/NINs were I consistently could outdamage them from 10 - 200 damage per shot/special. Putting this data into a party setup as well were you are getting EXP that amount more a RNG/WAR gets doing that has close to no difference of the hate that a RNG/WAR and RNG/NIN can get hitting a monster shot per shot.

The big advantage that RNG/NIN gives is that you are capable of using Barrage attacks or WS like Sidewinder more freely instead of choosing the correct moments. The downside is that a RNG/NINs Barrage attacks and WSs like Sidewinder are far less damaging then a RNG/WARs. That is were a RNG/WAR has an advantage, but a RNG/WAR does have to choose the correct moments to attacks this means a RNG/WAR has to be very well knowledgible in how much his attack is going to take from that monster.

If you are in a party with a PLD, THF, RNG then it is best that the RNG be a RNG/WAR. This does make it possible for the RNG to assist in doing a 2nd or 3rd SATA. And with the proper coordination between those three members that will draw out maximum potential damage of the melees.

One of my favorite things to in a PLD, THF, RNG party is when the PLD and THF do their SATA to establish hate, if the monster is still pretty healthy and we are ready for a second SATA. I take hate by activating Sharpshot, Berserk, Barrage, and then using WS (This usually will establish hate on you, Barrage pulls in a lot of hate when you just activate it not even used yet and so the WS helps to equate the hate you draw close to what Provoke does).

At that point the THF does his SATAVB for a nice amount of damage and then I fire off my Barrage. Finally the PLD provokes to help keep the hate on him. Usually when done right that entire sequence will do around 1k - 1.2k of damage. Also hate will still be pretty solid on the PLD, I've never had a instance from lv. 40 - 55 were doing that would place hate back on me, as long as I take a slight pause before the next shot it works out perfectly.

Of course that sequence is something you can only do 1 time every 5 min. for the rest of the time instead of using the Sharpshot, Berserk, Barrage to draw hate you just do WS and if the monster doesn't turn Provoke (Do it quickly if you want THF to still get full effect of his SATAVB).

Even though the THFs SATAVB does get them a nice amount of damage in 1 burst like that, it doesn't put them at any number way beyond what a RNG/WAR is capable of achieving by just hitting 2 or 3 shots especially when they have Meat Mithkabobs and Berserk active. What I've noticed with most monsters when doing these kind of attacks they usually are nearly dead by then that THFs I have partied with never see a point to waste the attack on them, they see it better to save and start it off on the next monster.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
Your initial "condition" was tricking onto another DD. I said fine, we'll bring a secondary WAR you can trick on. You can do your damage that way.

Later you brought up 3/3 pt (only because I brought up multi RNG PT), and now you are sticking to that.

Timeline:

1) I said "tricking on to other DD."
2) You brought up multi-RNG.
3) I said that I was talking about 3/3. No objections from you at the time.
4) You later (WAY later) mentioned bringing a 4th melee.
5) I referred to 3).

Don't reorder events to make it look like I changed positions. My position was clearly stated extremely early on.

Your NEW condition and claim is this:
"In a PT where the THF tricks onto RNG, the THF will do more damage than the RNG."

How many times do I have to say it? The [other DD] doesn't have to be a RNG. RNG can be in a separate party for all I care.

I honestly think that from 15-~45ish THF is the most damaging DD in the game, but doesn't get much credit for it.

How the f*ck can you accuse me of "selective reading" when you are quoting me IN THE MIDDLE OF A SENTENCE? Try quoting the ACTUAL ENTIRE SENTENCE I SAID!

I love how when you do the exact same things that you flame me for, it's OK! You're just as much of a hypocrite as you claim I am!

I even brought up other scenarios (10 times now or more!! You never even read it... hence "selective reading"), citing that parties don't always have BOTH THF AND RNG. So in the condition that they could pick up THF or RNG, who would do more damage? You don't even address this.

I addressed it twice already. See if you can find where.

[ClydeArrowny]

Ok, heres what I got out of the whole tricking on the tank then the melee thing.
Its not the most efficient thing to do in a PT. However I believe Dan is trying to make the point in comparing rng to thf damage its not fair to give the rng a higher hate ceiling because without the thf they would have a lower ceiling. Thus, I've thought about a potential solution to this.

PT setup RNG+THF+TANK+DD+mage+mage
Thf pulls with a low D boomerang. Tank vokes. Thf fuido(SATA) on the second DD(will not give tank more hate and tank should be able to pull hate back soon enough.) When time comes around thf does second fuido on other DD; tank should have no trouble keeping hate by now if hes good enough.
This allows thf to do all his fuido dmg and not give the tank a higher hate ceiling. Note this is for test purposes only and is not most efficient in EXP PT.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Lynsy
____Melee/Ranged|Abilities|_WSs| Totals
RNG: 20,945 ____ | 4,471_|6830 |32,246
THF: 14,178 _____ | 0____ |7527 |21,705

Sooo...In conclusion, even meeting your criteria, I still outdamaged the THF--by a slightly lower margin, but a ridiculously high margin regardless.

Interesting. I guess we'll see if the results are the same when imac and I go to parse.