Are Rangers really powerful?

[imac2much]

Dan, do you even read posts? I mean, it's obvious from the other thread you had selective reading, but this is getting ridiculous. You made this huge response, supporting what I said. Good job, and thank you.

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
"99% of the time?" How much have you played THF?

I guess here we have to come to a decision. From what you guys are saying, either THF simply does not join 3/3 parties, THF tricks on a mage-class for 2nd SATA, or THF does not do a 2nd SATA at all (unless the DD consistently takes hate, which REALLY shouldn't happen with a decent tank that's being tricked on).

Where are all the other THFs in this thread to comment on this? Again, for all this talk of tricking on BRDs and WHMs, I have yet to see any mage-class volunteer to be tricked on, yet now it's supposedly standard practice?

...

So are you saying that a 3/3 party where THF does 2nd SATA on the DD is an "extreme condition"? From everything that I've seen as a THF and partied with THFs, it is the most common condition.

Hm, what did I just say?

Originally posted by imac2much
Trick onto tank twice? Trick onto BRD? Trick onto another DD? That's what happens 99% of the time. No GOOD THF tricks onto a RNG... maybe we're overestimating your intelligence in playing the job.

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
In fact, I would venture to say that in nearly every party I've ever seen with RNG/NIN + THF, the THF has tricked on the RNG. Were you talking about RNG/WAR this whole time?

I have never been in a PT with either RNG or THF where the THF consistently uses 2nd SATA onto RNG. What usually happens is the initial trick onto tank, then skillchain with rng (satavb or satade) on tank. Either that, or 4 melee PT. PLD, WAR/NIN, RNG, THF, healer, BRD or BLM (BRD generally better but you know how rare they are) is a standard RNG+THF PT. All of these previous conditions cited happen more frequently than THF consistently doing 2nd SATA on RNG. This is why I ask why you keep bringing that up.

If 3/3 parties where THF does 2nd SATA on 3rd melee is an extreme, ridiculous, totally unacceptable scenario, why is this just coming out now when I clearly stated that as the condition within the first five posts I made?

Cool. For added emphasis, I'll quote my previous post again.

Originally posted by imac2much
Trick onto tank twice? Trick onto BRD? Trick onto another DD? That's what happens 99% of the time. No GOOD THF tricks onto a RNG... maybe we're overestimating your intelligence in playing the job.

I know you have selective reading problems and you don't like focusing on the point of posts, but it gets funnier when you seem like you're arguing with me, yet you're agreeing with what I said.

The point was: your initial post made a claim that was general and all encompassing, and in the way you have been defending yourself, you believe it is the most common of all conditions. Yet, it's not. Here are the more common scenarios:
1) PT that has BOTH rng and thf. The THF will rarely trick onto RNG as I have said. He will do initial SATA on tank, next sata on other DD. If none are available, he saves it so he can skillchain with RNG.
2) PT that has only one of the aforementioned classes. In this case, which class will do more damage compared to eachother? (i.e. PT1 has 5 fixed jobs, PT2 is PT1+RNG, PT3 is PT1+THF) If you parsed both of these PTs, which would do more damage (THF or RNG) and which would kill things fastest?

In both of these cases, in the most common scenarios, the evidence and opinions points to RNG. You are still defending your statement that "THF is the most powerful DD from 15-45 but don't get credit for it." Please explain, provide counterevidence, or for once admit you were wrong (whoa!). Citing specific rare conditions that are not the norm is not proving the statement for the majority of gameplay.

[Jaggywaggy]

Slashing type weapons have no bonus or reduction on any type of mob - Greatswords, Scythes, Greataxes, Swords not of the rapier type, Greatkatanas, Katanas

Completely off topic, but slashing are nerfed vs flying mobs, and boosted against plant types. :p

Good tanks do NOT need a THF to control hate. Good tanks can control hate all the way until the big guns are busted out at the end of the fight. We do not need THF. Tricking onto a RNG IS a handicap, and if you think otherwise there's something wrong with your logic.

So if a good tank does not need a THF to control hate, what is the problem here? THF will SATA on both tank and DD, which ultimately evens out. Yes, there will be a short immediate spike on the RNG right after the 2nd SATA, but as long as the RNG was playing normally (and not taking advantage of the first SATA) then the tank will be able to get hate back right after 2nd SATA.

Yep, assuming the tank will be a good one, which imac used in his thoughts with rng not needing thfs. Using your ideal pld that can keep hate no matter what, thf could SATA rng all they wanted given they SATA the pld first. However, if they use side/slug shot from the 'start'' of the fight and it's 900+, it's my SATA VB putting 600-900( VB+SC to get 600-900) back onto the tank saving the rng's ass. As for 600-900, depends if a mage made a mistake and forgot to dispel right before our WSs, and shell hurts SCs. Crabs can be a huge pain when it comes to buffs as we all know. I'll average 550 a SATA VP, and average 200-250 distortion. However sometimes I'll break 600, and sometimes the SC goes 100% unresisted for 350.

Assuming we're talking about very fast paced xp parties, that 3 minute cover won't always be ready. Of course rng and jobs with similar huge burst WSs like that could always wait until the end of the battle so it kills the mob with the spike damage move, however losing out on 30 second battles for instant 200+ xp. So I take great offensive in saying ideally played rangers will not need a thief. Rangers played to their potienal will be able to grab hate from any tank with supported hate added to the tank(thf, /thf). Maybe their is a 5% exception to this, but those amazingly played rangers will pull hate and for longer than some 3 hits for sure.

Let's not forgot in terms of pure damage, rng/war is without question more damaging potienally than rng/nin. There is the case they have to hold back because they're so damaging, but not with a very good thief. Thfs allow the reliable use of rng/nin AND rng/war with no fear of pulling hate on the rng's part if the thief like the ranger and tank, is a good player. Except for side/slug, but which is followed right after by SATA WS. Point of this paragraph is trading hate between rng/nin(s) isn't needed if you have a thief. You can simply get 1-2 rng/war and make for very fast battles. You wouldn't need that many rangers for instant battles if the rangers you had used /war, 1-2 rng/war + thf and ideally a blm is just insane.

Although the functioning of a multi rng party would be different... 3-5 side/slugs for instant kill as well, however it's fairly impossible to get so many willing rangers at the same time, this is an "ideal" situation which many of the posters are agreeing don't happen. Make a good 4-8k per hour balanced xp party in 10 minutes-1 hour or wait several hours and get rngs only thus wasting hours of time? <Hmmm>, this ideal situation sounds like a big fat waste of a day to me, I'll grab the 4-8k per hour party and be very happy with it.

Unless they were staticed, I going to regard claims that it's easy to find that many rangers to get into a party as complete BS. When I search for the 2nd DD, I see 1 rng in my level range 50% of the time. Infact it's never happened that I've seen 4-5 rangers of the same lvl range throught the world post 30 or so. It's an extreme occurance. However there may be anons, but I and everyone wouldn't be able to spot anon anything. The exception maybe being that one friend you have who happens to be a lvl/job you're looking for and he's anon.

[Cat]

Unless they were staticed, I going to regard claims that it's easy to find that many rangers to get into a party as complete BS. When I search for the 2nd DD, I see 1 rng in my level range 50% of the time. Infact it's never happened that I've seen 4-5 rangers of the same lvl range throught the world post 30 or so. It's an extreme occurance. However there may be anons, but I and everyone wouldn't be able to spot anon anything. The exception maybe being that one friend you have who happens to be a lvl/job you're looking for and he's anon.

This statement is not accurate. From 24-75 I only partied in 2-4 ranger PTs, 3 RNG on average. Yes if u search you might only see 1 or 2 rangers in your level range. However, as a ranger I've made an effort to party with other rangers the most common job on my Flist is RNG I have no problem finding rangers. I'm willing to wait for them to end the party they are in and many rangers will leave a party after replacing themselves to join a multi Ranger party. I don't only ask seeking rangers and I dont only ask rangers who dont have a party. Around 72-75 I almost always had 4 RNG parties and a waiting list for more rangers who wanted in. THough I never had a "Static Party" it did seem like it was the same 6 or 7 rangers in my parties most of the time. I know I'm getting off track here sorry.

I have to remind myself this discussion is focused primarily on levels 15-45 and durring THOSE levels I didn't do more than 2-3 rangers most of the time. A good party is worth the wait if your patient you can find the members you need. While I wait I usually craft ammo anyway so its not like there is really downtime.

Edit:
Now that I think about it I partied with multi rangers most of the time except in dunes and quifm... But i spent more time in Maze and Koroloka Tunnel (sp) with up to 5 or 6 rangers vs worms.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Jaggywaggy
Completely off topic, but slashing are nerfed vs flying mobs, and boosted against plant types. :p

Not according to this site I think: http://ff11.s33.xrea.com/cgi2/monster.cgi

Let's not forgot in terms of pure damage, rng/war is without question more damaging potienally than rng/nin. There is the case they have to hold back because they're so damaging, but not with a very good thief. Thfs allow the reliable use of rng/nin AND rng/war with no fear of pulling hate on the rng's part if the thief like the ranger and tank, is a good player. Except for side/slug, but which is followed right after by SATA WS. Point of this paragraph is trading hate between rng/nin(s) isn't needed if you have a thief. You can simply get 1-2 rng/war and make for very fast battles. You wouldn't need that many rangers for instant battles if the rangers you had used /war, 1-2 rng/war + thf and ideally a blm is just insane.

This is a great point that I never even brought up. Note that Dan said THF is the most damaging DD from 15-45... period. Does he presume to think that a THF can outdamage even RNG/WAR? So far the opinions from RNG/NIN (and factual evidence) have proven that THF can't even outdamage a RNG/NIN, so how would the THF outdamage a RNG/WAR? In a PT with both RNG/WAR and THF, the THF could SATA as much as he wanted since RNG/WAR could easily voke to get the mob to turn any time SATA was up. (Provoke gets less hate than a good SATA anyway) Dan, you really think even in this PT your THF would outdamage a RNG/WAR?

In some other threads (contemplating subjobs of RNG), I pointed out that /WAR would only work well in a PT with a THF or /THF (like MNK/THF or DRK/THF). This doesn't mean that the THF is outdamaging the RNG, or that the RNG is only outdamaging the THF because the THF is *letting him* (with SATA's). The RNG could just use /NIN if the THF wasn't there and still outdamage a THF. I just don't understand how someone can keep claiming that THF is the most damaging DD from 15-45 (not using ranged attacks) with all this evidence and opinion stating otherwise. Unless that someone is really stubborn of course.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
Hm, what did I just say?

Seeing as how I specifically stated that I was talking about a 3/3 party, there IS no other DD. Why are you bolding a comment that doesn't apply?

I have never been in a PT with either RNG or THF where the THF consistently uses 2nd SATA onto RNG. What usually happens is the initial trick onto tank, then skillchain with rng (satavb or satade) on tank.

If RNG turns the mob with WS (keep in mind this is pre-Sidewinder so this is far from guaranteed), then I'll SATAVB on the tank. If he doesn't, then that's a different story. What happens from there depends on how much life it has left.

Either that, or 4 melee PT. PLD, WAR/NIN, RNG, THF, healer, BRD or BLM (BRD generally better but you know how rare they are) is a standard RNG+THF PT. All of these previous conditions cited happen more frequently than THF consistently doing 2nd SATA on RNG. This is why I ask why you keep bringing that up.

I clarified that I was not talking about 4 melee party a long time ago. You seem to be insisting that 4 melee parties are more common for THF than 3 melee parties. Again, do you play THF?

The point was: your initial post made a claim that was general and all encompassing, and in the way you have been defending yourself, you believe it is the most common of all conditions. Yet, it's not. Here are the more common scenarios:
1) PT that has BOTH rng and thf. The THF will rarely trick onto RNG as I have said. He will do initial SATA on tank, next sata on other DD. If none are available, he saves it so he can skillchain with RNG.

In this party, what happens if the fight opens with SC? RNG is still not to be tricked on under any circumstance?

You are still defending your statement that "THF is the most powerful DD from 15-45 but don't get credit for it." Please explain, provide counterevidence, or for once admit you were wrong (whoa!). Citing specific rare conditions that are not the norm is not proving the statement for the majority of gameplay.

From the very beginning, I clearly stated that THF would be tricking on another DD. Within four posts, I explicitly clarified that I was talking about a 3 melee/3 mage party. These were the conditions I laid out for a situation where THF should do more damage than RNG. In my experience in parties both as a THF and with them, this is the most common scenario (with a quality tank, as I already said). If you don't think it's common and you want to dismiss the situation as being unusual and irrelevant, fine. But I set the exact stage I was talking about over 15 pages ago. If you don't like those conditions, instead of arguing about damage output and ranged attacks you should have just said, "They aren't fair conditions for the RNG," and left it at that.

Do you even dispute the argument that under the situation I specifically described, THF would do more damage? If you don't, then there isn't much point in continuing.

[imac2much]

Why do you enjoy going on tangents so much?

This is what usually happens when arguing with you: someone proves something you say wrong, or at least somewhat fallible. You bring up some strange reason or excuse why your claim still applies. Someone else shows why your extra reason or excuse isn't applicable, THEN YOU START ARGUING ABOUT THAT REASON OR EXCUSE... not about the actual argument.

Look, we were talking about Lynsy's PTs. Both of her PTs had ADDITIONAL MELEE, i.e. 4 DD. Yet you still asked if the THF was tricking on her. My response was: WHO CARES?? Why should it matter? It *shouldn't*.

You went on a TANGENT to even suggest that this mattered. You were digging for scraps and grasping at straws to try to find a reason why the THF wasn't doing more damage than the RNG. I was showing that it doesn't matter... then you went off on your tangent again.

So 3melee/3mage PT is standard. I think EVERYONE would agree a 3melee/3mage PT with THF but no RNG is more common than 3melee/3mage PT with both THF and RNG. Whether you like it or not, it's more common to have a DRG, DRK, WAR, whatever in that 3rd spot other than tank and THF. I said it's ridiculous to keep saying tricking onto the RNG is standard practice, when it RARELY HAPPENS.

You want to keep going on tangents? Notice how everyone saying it is ridiculous to trick onto a RNG *EVEN IN A 3MELEE/3MAGE PT.* Just SATA onto tank, then wait for skillchain so that RNG shot spam + WS will turn the mob, SATAWS onto tank. This is MORE standard and conventional than your idea of tricking onto a RNG.

Since when have I said that with your "condition" of 3melee/3mage PT, that your claim stands? No. Lynsy and others have pointed out, you are claiming that EVERY LITTLE THING must be working int he THF's favor for him to outdamage the RNG (SATA exacty every minute, have enough ACC to get TP fast and SATAVB on every monster, never miss a SATA, etc etc). If someone counters your claims with opinions or evidence, you add even more claims and conditions, instead of admitting that in the MAJORITY of PT's out there, THF will NOT outdamage RNG.

You still think in the MAJORITY of PT's out there, THF is most damaging DD in the game 15-45? Even compared to RNG/WAR?

I clarified that I was not talking about 4 melee party a long time ago. You seem to be insisting that 4 melee parties are more common for THF than 3 melee parties.

No, I am insisting that a PT with THF but without RNG is more common than a PT with both RNG and THF. There is an overabundance of non-RNG melee out there compared to mages and RNG. You are more likely to have a 4 melee PT with both THF and RNG OR a 3 melee PT with no RNG than a 3 melee PT with both THF and RNG. You want to dispute this?

I already said this multiple times, but like usual I'll have to repeat myself 15 times before you acknowledge it. Your claim has nothing to do with "THF > RNG when they are in the same PT" anyway, you are claiming THF is the most damaging DD in the game 15-45. Like I said, if you had a 3melee PT with THF but no RNG, then replace the THF with a RNG, who would have been doing more damage at their appointed times? Most opinions and evidence is pointing to RNG, but when someone brings these points up, you either ignore it, go on tangents, or just plain act stubborn. Good job, I guess everyone else is wrong, you are right. /bow

Besides, why are you suddenly saying that having 4 melees would make THF less damaging? I don't understand this logic. You still have another person to do your SATA's on. Why does the sole fact you said 3 melee/ 3 mage PT make all evidence and parsings with 4 melee worthless? It doesn't decrease your damage with THF. It might let the RNG shoot more in your OWN pt but I already stated RNG would be the most damaging DD even without a THF to trick onto the tank. Like I said before, competent tanks can hold hate from ranged spam until pulling out the big guns and skillchains near the end of the fight. So why is this 4 melee/ 2 mage PT suddenly null?

[Cat]

SPider dan:
Based on different parsing I have done with my THF and my RNG, I honestly think that from 15-~45ish THF is the most damaging DD in the game, but doesn't get much credit for it. (note: From 30-32 a gun RNG would probably outdamage THF.)

This assumes a party where THF is allowed to do max damage. Specifically, I mean a party with a good tank (one that doesn't need SATA to do their job). In these parties, THF can drop two SA(+TA) in the first 30 seconds or so (one on tank, one on other DD), and it's really hard for any other DD to overcome that huge lead.

One might argue that that is "defeating" THF's purpose as hate controller, but ultimately, hate control is only useful if it results in faster exp. If THF SATAs on both tank and DD, then they essentially cancel out (from a hate generation standpoint) and the Tank:DD dynamic is just like a normal non-THF party.

This is Spider Dans original claim it never says 3/3 party it only says that the party has to have THF , tank, and another DD.
DD includes BLM DRK RNG and sometimes a MNK imho but according to you that could be a second THF as well. It doesn't say that the party must have 3 mages.

On a side point why are you arguing that you should trick on a ranger you gimp. You wana trick on one char so that you can do more damage while he has to compensate for the hate by doing less damage? Its counterproductive and overall doesn't change the parties DPS. Your ranger has to recast utsusemi because u tricked on him instead of shooting, meleeing, and building TP. Yes if you trick on a ranger nearly 9 times out of 10 the ranger will get hate off any good tank... please refer to my earlier comment about how the 2nd trick gives more emnity than the first before you rebutt this comment.

Edit:
But again this is all a distraction because even if the THF tricks the RNG and the RNG has to recast utsusemi the RNG will outdamage the THF everytime the fact is that a THF simply can't compete with the damage RNG does per hit he doesn't even come close. There have been parses testimonies scanareos gear discussions and still nothing has been posted to disprove this. There have only been notions that will narrow the gap slightly. Like 20 damage per shot difference from one ranger to another. This is all fine and dandy but the ranger is outdamaging the THF by hundreds of dmg per fight either way. 80 dmg per hitor 100 dmg per hit it doesn't matter, 75% accuracy or 85% accuracy doesn't really matter THF still wont beat ranger. It's also BS that you even said that I should take the lower spectrum into consideration I dont see why I should have to bottom feed off the rangers who don't even know better than to use horn arrows over silver.

As far as tricking on a RNG its retarded. You are lowering your parties overall damage by forcing the RNG to count hits and not shoot while he recasts utsusemi and waits for an opening in the monsters attacks to get it cast. your doing 100 more DMG (you could have just used SA afterall so its only 100 more dmg or so) so that the RNG can do 300+ less dmg. Don't dispute the numbers its all relative to level but the point I'm making will still be the same your trading damage your not doing more as a party.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
Look, we were talking about Lynsy's PTs. Both of her PTs had ADDITIONAL MELEE, i.e. 4 DD. Yet you still asked if the THF was tricking on her. My response was: WHO CARES?? Why should it matter? It *shouldn't*.

It matters because if the THF is tricking on someone other than the RNG, the RNG is getting the benefit of having a THF in party (higher hate ceiling) while some other DD is getting tricked on. This dynamic would not occur in a 3/3 party unless THF was tricking on a mage, which I have yet to see used as a strategy in an exp party.

So 3melee/3mage PT is standard. I think EVERYONE would agree a 3melee/3mage PT with THF but no RNG is more common than 3melee/3mage PT with both THF and RNG.

Based on the job popularity of RNG vs. THF, this isn't a surprise. The point is that in a 3/3 party, the secondary trick dummy is almost always the third melee. You've repeatedly mentioned tricking on mage-classes, which is something I've never seen done as a standard practice.

You want to keep going on tangents? Notice how everyone saying it is ridiculous to trick onto a RNG *EVEN IN A 3MELEE/3MAGE PT.* Just SATA onto tank, then wait for skillchain so that RNG shot spam + WS will turn the mob, SATAWS onto tank. This is MORE standard and conventional than your idea of tricking onto a RNG.

Great. So you think the conditions I set forth are ridiculous and unacceptable. Why didn't you immediately say so 15 pages ago?

Since when have I said that with your "condition" of 3melee/3mage PT, that your claim stands? No. Lynsy and others have pointed out, you are claiming that EVERY LITTLE THING must be working int he THF's favor for him to outdamage the RNG (SATA exacty every minute, have enough ACC to get TP fast and SATAVB on every monster, never miss a SATA, etc etc). If someone counters your claims with opinions or evidence, you add even more claims and conditions, instead of admitting that in the MAJORITY of PT's out there, THF will NOT outdamage RNG.

I mentioned two very specific conditions extremely early on. 2nd SATA on other DD, 3/3 party. You think it's extremely unusual, I don't. If you can't even agree to the conditions I stated within the first 5 posts, what are we discussing? That RNG can outdamage THF in some other setup that I wasn't even talking about? RNG can certainly outdamage THF in a multi-RNG party, so there you go. However, here you would run into the same "it's not the most common setup!" argument that you're using against me.

You still think in the MAJORITY of PT's out there, THF is most damaging DD in the game 15-45? Even compared to RNG/WAR?

In actual practice, I don't think RNG/WAR will outdamage RNG/NIN in the MAJORITY of PTs out there from 15-45. (I guess I should start doing searches for everyone who has previously agreed with this belief now, because now that I've said it, I'm sure everyone will disagree with it.)

No, I am insisting that a PT with THF but without RNG is more common than a PT with both RNG and THF. There is an overabundance of non-RNG melee out there compared to mages and RNG. You are more likely to have a 4 melee PT with both THF and RNG OR a 3 melee PT with no RNG than a 3 melee PT with both THF and RNG. You want to dispute this?

Not really, but I don't think it matters. In a 3/3 party with no THF, RNG is limited by the tank hate in a normal fashion. It doesn't make much difference to the THF's damage output who the other DD that 2nd SATA goes on is, as long as someone can start Distortion for the THF. If the other DD has Utsusemi (e.g. WAR/NIN or RNG/NIN) then 2nd SATA is usually a non-decision, because a good tank can take hate back before shadows are gone.

Your claim has nothing to do with "THF > RNG when they are in the same PT" anyway, you are claiming THF is the most damaging DD in the game 15-45. Like I said, if you had a 3melee PT with THF but no RNG, then replace the THF with a RNG, who would have been doing more damage at their appointed times?

That would depend on who the other two melee are.

Besides, why are you suddenly saying that having 4 melees would make THF less damaging?

It wouldn't, but it could make a RNG in the same party (that wasn't being tricked on) MORE damaging, via higher hate barrier.

Ultimately, though, since I wasn't talking about 4/2 parties, you're trying to win an argument I'm not making.

[Madden]

Why you guys even try to talk to Spider-Dan, he showed many times hes an idiot that hide behind long posts of pure crap.

[Cat]

Whats this crap about a damage ceiling anyway. Some rangers keep shooting when they have hate by the time utsusemi drops the mob is almost dead anyway. We take a couple hits big deal regen recast utsusemi and pull another one have the pld cure you next fight to build more hate. With a good tank we should have a huge damage ceiling anyway so why is it unreasonable to say THF trick onto a different char.

Wouldn't it be a better idea to have the pld allow the RNG to take hate back then have the THF trick the tank again... if you have good communication this should be a better solution for the whole party. This way none of the DD have to hold back. If THF truely outdamage RNG then your tank shouldn't even need to voke... If THF did more damage than anyjob 15-45 then I think you might see more PLD/NIN in exp parties because if THF do more damage then there is no need for voke afterall no one can get more hate than the highest DD in the game at those levels (LOL) (of course im not serious because THF just don't do enough dmg to accomplish this consistantly enough to use it in a party)

Also dan never addressed the fact that THF tricking on RNG doesn't help the total damage output of the party as I've mentioned 4 times now. Instead he focuses on this "I only said 3/3" argument that doesn't really matter either because the THF still wont outdamage the RNG.

[imac2much]

Laughing. Out. Loud.
You are continually trying to dodge the entire debate by hiding behind your excuses and "after-the-fact" conditions. Several people have quoted your original claim, so here we go again:

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Based on different parsing I have done with my THF and my RNG, I honestly think that from 15-~45ish THF is the most damaging DD in the game, but doesn't get much credit for it. (note: From 30-32 a gun RNG would probably outdamage THF.)

You are saying right here it is the most damaging DD in the game. You brought up this quote LATER:

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
I was referring to standard 3 melee 3 mage party dynamics.

ONLY to counter my post about multi RNG pt. You are claiming in that post that the 3melee/3mage PT is more common than multi RNG PT, and I agree with that.

But stop going on tangents! The point is you are still saying that in MOST PTs, THF is the most damaging DD 15-45. You're not saying anything about THF tricking on RNG to limit his damage, etc, etc. You do NOT need a THF in a PT with RNG! How many times do I have to say this: a good tank (especially PLD) will allow the RNG to shoot spam to his potential. Adding a THF in there doesn't necessarily increase the RNG damage by much. Think of it this way: if you have a PLD, RNG, and 3 mages, and you had a choice between RNG and THF for the last spot... who would you choose? Who would do the most damage? THINK ABOUT THIS CAREFULLY.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Spider-Dan
It matters because if the THF is tricking on someone other than the RNG, the RNG is getting the benefit of having a THF in party (higher hate ceiling) while some other DD is getting tricked on. This dynamic would not occur in a 3/3 party unless THF was tricking on a mage, which I have yet to see used as a strategy in an exp party.[/B]
I CONTINUALLY have said that the whole point of tricking onto a mage is just as likely as tricking onto a RNG. Most 3 melee PT you have won't have a RNG.. you won't be tricking onto a RNG there would you? And I've been in PT's where the THF tricks onto BRD. The BRD is already standing there singing songs, and they get almost no aggro, so why not?

Based on the job popularity of RNG vs. THF, this isn't a surprise. The point is that in a 3/3 party, the secondary trick dummy is almost always the third melee. You've repeatedly mentioned tricking on mage-classes, which is something I've never seen done as a standard practice.

Selective reading at its finest. Did you even read my last couple posts, where I even BOLDED the other part for you. How ignorant are you? Even the fact I BOLDED the relevant information isn't getting to your skull? I even did it twice.

Originally posted by imac2much
Trick onto tank twice? Trick onto BRD? Trick onto another DD? That's what happens 99% of the time. No GOOD THF tricks onto a RNG... maybe we're overestimating your intelligence in playing the job.

I've repeatedly mentioned tricking onto mage-classes AND non-RNG melee. What, that's not common? What game are you playing?

I mentioned two very specific conditions extremely early on. 2nd SATA on other DD, 3/3 party. You think it's extremely unusual, I don't. If you can't even agree to the conditions I stated within the first 5 posts, what are we discussing? That RNG can outdamage THF in some other setup that I wasn't even talking about? RNG can certainly outdamage THF in a multi-RNG party, so there you go. However, here you would run into the same "it's not the most common setup!" argument that you're using against me.

Nah, I admit that multi-RNG PT is not as common as other PT. But when I brought it up, you did not even bring up your 3/3 condition. No, you fabricated your condition AFTER I brought it up. Can you even comprehend that there is a difference between the two situations?

In actual practice, I don't think RNG/WAR will outdamage RNG/NIN in the MAJORITY of PTs out there from 15-45. (I guess I should start doing searches for everyone who has previously agreed with this belief now, because now that I've said it, I'm sure everyone will disagree with it.)

Actually I think most high level RNG agree that in a PT with THF or /THF the RNG should sub WAR. This is a condition where having a THF allows RNG to do more damage (with /WAR sub). However, with /NIN sub, having a THF in PT does not substantially increase the RNG damage.

I already offered this sample condition... probably 5 times now. And as everyone knows, we need to say it 10-20 times before you read it, so here's #6.

If you have a melee (non RNG)/tank/3 mages PT, and have 1 spot left for either THF or RNG, all other things constant, which job would do more damage in that PT? Your claim is that THF will *WITHOUT RANGED ATTACKS* from 15-45 right? Just clearing this up since you keep trying to hide behind conditions and crap. People have already given their opinions and factual experience with this, and you just scoff at it or point out how SOMEHOW it doesn't match your invisible conditions (which you don't even bring up until someone argues with you).

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
It wouldn't, but it could make a RNG in the same party (that wasn't being tricked on) MORE damaging, via higher hate barrier.

Ultimately, though, since I wasn't talking about 4/2 parties, you're trying to win an argument I'm not making.

It matters because what other argument do you have towards Lynsy's parsing results? You really think that faux damage ceiling is increased THAT much with a THF in PT?

I bet now you will decline on my offer to parse my RNG and your THF in a lvl 30 cap zone because "OMG IT'S UNFAIR BECAUSE I'M TRICKING ONTO THE TANK AND YOU GET TO DO MORE DAMAGE ONOZ." Notice how much more damage Lynsy's RNG is doing than the THF: 44-51% more damage. So you brought up the fact it is a 4 melee PT... but are you then saying the RNG got a 51+% damage increase just because a THF was in the PT? Are you nuts? If not, what else do you have to argue with that parse? Yes, it's only one parse, and there are variables... but that is a HUGE damage discrepancy. She admits that both she and the THF were not noobs. What other excuses do you have now?

Originally posted by Madden
Why you guys even try to talk to Spider-Dan, he showed many times hes an idiot that hide behind long posts of pure crap.

It's entertaining because he's completely oblivious to everything. I acknowledge he will never admit fault or wrong (unless he adds a caveat) and will just hide behind tangents and add new post-conditions to his claims... it's entertaining to just see how he wiggles and squirms to survive.

[Lynsy]

Yes, as a WHM I have let THFs trick off me...Is it a habit? No...but I have (mostly because apparently THFs get all giddy when mages let them do that in some twisted evil kinda way), but only with 1 PLD who I would trust to the grave or in random situations (mostly skill-up) just out of boredom. I have been in PTs where the THF has tricked off the BRD. Is it common? No. Do I recommend it? No...But don't say it just doesn't happen=- a lot of shit happens. (oh, and yes...tricking of the BRD, if you absolutely have to, is the best plan for XP PTs as they are the class that pulls hate the least for XP, not true for HNM but that's an entirely different arguement).

Sorry, but my stating that as a WHM I can do as much/more DMG than a PLD is somewhat relevant -- I agree, neither a WHM or a PLD are there to do damage, however, a PLD is typically considered to have a higher damage potential than a WHM, yet in certain situations I can outdamage a PLD...Whether that is their main purpose or not is irrelevant -- a THFs main purpose is >not< damage but hate control, so how is that vastly different?

I explained before how a THF tricking off RNG the second time is not the same dynamics as having no THF -- hate degenerates, at the time of the second trick the hate from the first is more or less gone, so it is almost the same as tricking off them without having tricked off the tank to begin with.

But hell, if it will make you happy Im supposed to go XP again tonight...Ill make a 3mage, 3 melee PT if it kills me and Ill parse it. I always go with a MNK, so I'll have to let the MNK tank but thats not a big deal. Ill share parsings later.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
You are saying right here it is the most damaging DD in the game.

What's that about selective reading?

This assumes a party where THF is allowed to do max damage. Specifically, I mean a party with a good tank (one that doesn't need SATA to do their job). In these parties, THF can drop two SA(+TA) in the first 30 seconds or so (one on tank, one on other DD), and it's really hard for any other DD to overcome that huge lead.

But stop going on tangents! The point is you are still saying that in MOST PTs, THF is the most damaging DD 15-45. You're not saying anything about THF tricking on RNG to limit his damage, etc, etc.

Apparently, there is a problem here.

Party is three melee, three mage.
I said from the start that THF is doing 2nd SATA on other DD.
One melee is tank. One melee is THF. If the third melee is RNG, then isn't the RNG the "other DD"? The one that I said THF would be tricking on from the very start?

Selective reading at its finest. Did you even read my last couple posts, where I even BOLDED the other part for you. How ignorant are you? Even the fact I BOLDED the relevant information isn't getting to your skull? I even did it twice.

And like I already said, in a 3/3 party, if the third melee is a RNG, then there is no other DD! Why do you keep bolding and requoting an irrelevant point?

For purposes of this discussion, it doesn't really matter who the third melee is in the party. In practical application RNG/NIN is usually a good choice because the tank will get hate back before they take any damage, but either way, THF's damage output isn't necessarily affected.

I've repeatedly mentioned tricking onto mage-classes AND non-RNG melee. What, that's not common? What game are you playing?

Tricking on mages is not common, no.

If there is a THF and a non-RNG melee in a 3/3 party, then there is no RNG, so tricking on the RNG isn't an issue, is it?

But when I brought it up, you did not even bring up your 3/3 condition. No, you fabricated your condition AFTER I brought it up. Can you even comprehend that there is a difference between the two situations?

I honestly thought that it was a given that 3/3 party was meant from the start. It is, by far, the de facto standard for exp parties. The first time someone (you) mentioned a non-standard party, I immediately clarified that I was only talking about 3/3 parties.

If you have a melee (non RNG)/tank/3 mages PT, and have 1 spot left for either THF or RNG, all other things constant, which job would do more damage in that PT?

As I already said, that would depend on who the melee and tank were.

I bet now you will decline on my offer to parse my RNG and your THF in a lvl 30 cap zone because "OMG IT'S UNFAIR BECAUSE I'M TRICKING ONTO THE TANK AND YOU GET TO DO MORE DAMAGE ONOZ."

I'm perfectly willing to participate in the 40 cap zone (as you suggested) under the conditions I already described. 3 melee/3 mage, good tank, THF is allowed to trick on tank and other DD. Without ranged attacks, I have no hope of competing, right?

[imac2much]

Yes, selective reading is this:
I cited several times that the event of you tricking onto RNG HURTS us more than tricking onto the tank HELPS. How many times do I have to stress this? You are intentionally limiting our damage.

You yourself admitted that having a 4 melee PT would NOT decrease your THF's damage. Am I right? So for our purposes just have a 4 melee PT so you can do your precious 2nd SATA on other DD. If you intentionally trick onto me, you are just limiting my damage potential. Your claim was not "THF would be more damaging than RNG in the same PT because I limit his damage." Your claim was that THF was most damaging DD period.

But whatever, I should have figured you wouldn't read that (even though I said it like 10 times now). I have a way to solve this, I'll just sub /WAR. Now whenever you need to SATA, I'll just voke. No complaints?

I need ot know more about these lvl 40 cap zones.. not too familiar with them. Have only been to Phomyan Aqueducts. Anyone have any comments?

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
You yourself admitted that having a 4 melee PT would NOT decrease your THF's damage. Am I right? So for our purposes just have a 4 melee PT so you can do your precious 2nd SATA on other DD.

And I also said that 4 melee party with THF would increase the RNG's damage. They have a higher hate ceiling.

How many times do I have to state and restate the conditions? If you won't use them, then just say so and be done with it. I'm not going to do a test with a different scenario than the one I specified and made crystal clear for almost this entire discussion.

Here's a straightforward question: under the scenario that I laid out and clarified, do you expect RNG to outdamage THF?

If so, then we can go test it.
If not, then what are we arguing about? Whether or not THF can do the most damage in a 4 melee party, or when THF is tricking on a mage? I never claimed that THF could do the most damage in those scenarios, so that argument isn't with me.

As I see it, there are two relevant questions in this thread:

1) Will a THF outdamage a RNG in the scenario I described?
2) Is the scenario I described common and practical?

If you want to say that the answer to 2) is no, then fine. There really isn't anything to talk about; you can safely relegate THF outdamaging RNG to the annals of WHM vs. bones or 5 BLM parties.

I have a way to solve this, I'll just sub /WAR. Now whenever you need to SATA, I'll just voke. No complaints?

In my very first post, I said that THF would be tricking on the tank and the other DD. I'm not going to change that. Subbing WAR and getting the benefit of 2 SATAs on the tank would boost your damage considerably.