Are Rangers really powerful?

[Minimee]

im a lvl 51 rng. at lower levels we miss alot,but when we hit we do alot of damage. rng is the most damage dealing melee class hands down. eagle eye shot is rngs 2 hour ability. yes it can miss but ive never seen that happen. depending on mob it can do major damage. at lvl 40 i eagle eye shot lumbering lambert he went from half to dead when i did 1185 dmg. ive EES to weaks for over 2600 dmg. flying mobs are weak to rngs. this can be a very fun class. but you really should have another class leveled up so that you can farm. there just is no way to explain how expensive this class is, not trying to scare you away, just letting you know you pay for damage with gil. always keep crossbow (marksmanship) leveled as well as your bow. guns rock but are extremely expensive, when you pay 8k for 99 bullets.

[Elsurion]

Well none of my EES missied, not even in the Promvron-Holla BCNM (0/5)

But it's true, RNG is a very expensive job, a level (up to50) can easly cost about 10k/level to 15k/level.

As for the bullets, thats why i level alchemy and Goldsmithing up to the silver bullet type

And yes, you need another higher Level Job, either to farm for money or farm for ingredients for crafting. At the moment i earn good money from selling Cooking Stuff, but i'm a hunter i have to kill mob

[Negorath]

And yes, you need another higher Level Job, either to farm for money or farm for ingredients for crafting.

No you don't, I've been doing good since NA release using my RNG main for farming to support my costs.

[Corrado]

At the risk of my own humiliation.. i post this.

http://www.apby07.dsl.pipex.com/clp780.jpg

:sweat:

[Elsurion]

@Negorath: i really like to grab some silver coins from the beastmens and with my high eva from the THF i won't get hit too often. Also i get more items with TH2, but that's another discusion

@Corrado: öhm, what level where your party there?
It looks like that Weapon was a Very High Evasion one.

And was that noob for you?

I found this as leveldescription.
Decorative Weapon (WAR) lv75-80

[imac2much]

I wonder why our 2hr is such horrid damage though. As a damage-intensive job, shouldn't they have given us a better 2hr? Well, maybe that would make us too overpowered (we're strong enough as it is), but EES is only good at low levels. As you get higher and higher, its usefulness diminishes greatly. I still think the best DD 2hr in the game is SAM's, with MNK's following closely. My friend's SAM/RNG took off nearly half of Ose's life with his 2hr alone... I think he does something like Sidewinder -> Sidewinder (Reverb) -> Yukikaze (Induration) -> Sidewinder or Gekko (Fragmentation) -> Kasha (Light) -> Barrage -> Hit -> Sidewinder.... it's pretty nuts. Sure puts Eagle Eye Shot in its place :sweat:

And Negorath is right. I know some good high level RNG's who have it as first job (other than 1st job to unlock RNG). Sure, they have to farm some more to get good gear, but as long as they put a lot of effort into farming, they can be good RNG as well.

[truong]

RNG is brokenly good. It's the damage dealing job that puts all DD job to shame. It's the reason the rest of the DD class sit in Jeuno waiting for invites. Honestly, if you have the patience to farm/camp NM, there's no reason to not go RNG. The time it takes the RNG to farm enough gil for arrows is roughly the same time all the DD class sit in Jeuno with flag up. The difference is once the RNG is done farming arrows, he'll get an invite to pt within a minute of putting his flag up, while the rest are still waiting. IMO a team of Tank/RNG/DRK/BRD/BLM/RDM is hands down the best exp team in the later levels. It gets no better.

[imac2much]

I agree RNG is brokenly good. I'm confused by your PT assessment though. Why do you need BLM or DRK if you're talking about optimal PT?

I've parsed quite a few of my last PT's lately. I always do around 2x as much damage as a well equipped DRK or BLM. In my NIN/3RNG/BRD/WHM PT last night, we made 4.2k xp in 30 minutes... and this was with me nerfing xp since I was 59 and everyone else was 57-58. Also, the other 2 RNG didn't have e-bow, so I did 150% as much damage as them (yes, e-bow makes that much of a difference, I can post the parsing if you want). So if all 3 RNG had e-bow, we probably could have got 5k xp/30 minutes, if we didn't run out of things to kill.

Some friends I know do 4 RNG PT, and that might be best, if all RNG are equally equipped so they can pass hate around. That might get tiring on the BRD though, having to juggle 4 hunter's preludes... I personally like having an initial tank to keep hate while the RNG build tp, then everyone sidewinder / barrage when the monster has 50-65% HP.

[Fire]

my rng set pt is so win...
rng rng rng rng rng rdm/war lol..
grav -> voke and run while we kill it

[Karinya]

Parsers are incomplete. They don't see damage from Bio, Poison, elemental enfeebles, and don't take into account the effect of absorbs; even Drain is often counted for the wrong amount (the log shows how much HP the caster gained, which is often less then the amount the monster lost). Skillchain damage is usually counted wrong too (just because *monsters* are stupid enough to think that the closer did the whole SC by himself, doesn't mean that players should duplicate the error). Avatars and wyverns are often not counted at all (either the person who recorded the log had them filtered, or the parser doesn't understand how to count them).

If you just studied parsers, you'd conclude that BRD is worthless; it does pathetic damage and hardly heals anyone either. And RDM isn't much better; what's that "Refresh" spell that doesn't seem to do anything? A parser could theoretically estimate damage prevented by Paralyze or Slow, but I don't know any that even try. And how do you evaluate the value of being hit for 50 damage instead of letting someone else be hit for 150? The game is far more complex than any existing parser, and most jobs contribute something besides raw damage or healing. RNG is one of the few jobs that the parser can actually see and understand everything it's doing (except pulling - another important factor in a party's success that parsers can't understand), so of course it looks better *to the parser*. That doesn't mean it actually contributes more to the party's overall success.

A not-too-complicated example: BLM casts Choke and Burn, DRK casts Absorb-VIT and -INT, BRD casts Madrigal, Minuet, INT Etude and Threnody, SAM and DRK do a skillchain, BLM magic bursts. How much damage should be credited to each of those party members? The methods used by all parsers I know of are not just wrong, but *obviously* wrong; but it's too complicated to figure out the "correct" amounts (in some cases, the formulas aren't even known), so the obviously wrong method is used because it is simpler.


Anyway, RNG can be good, but their accuracy is inconsistent even when well equipped (against ITs, at least), which is especially trouble for skillchains. (Maybe this improves with Prelude, but you know how rare bards are.) And they can't work with thieves well - they often can't even afford to provoke to set up SATA (if they sub war at all), let alone have it done on them the way WAR, MNK, SAM can. And then there's their tendency to screw up hate control, and sometimes move a dangerous AOE user toward your fragile backline - RNG could really *really* use some major -enmity gear, but I don't think they get much if any. There are definite downsides to rangers, along with their big damage numbers.

If you've already got all the defensive, support and utility roles covered - i.e. you have a tank, a WHM, a BRD, a RDM, a BLM, and a DRK - then your party is full and you have no room to invite a RNG anyway. In fact, I stopped at 6 and left out the SAM for more skillchains, the WAR for Warcry and backup tanking, the THF for hate control. You always have to leave out *some* support/utility contributions that other jobs could have made (RDM+BRD parties should probably leave out the WHM against most mobs, particularly if the tank is a PLD), but if you invite a ranger which provides very little other than damage, then you get less of jobs with a support component, which may or may not be worth the tradeoff. MNK, another excellent raw damage dealer, has this problem too; but at least they can be secondary tank for a THF.

[Kastel]

Karinya a lot of that is true, and looked over by many people. As for thf and rng though, in higher end PTs it's much better to not have a start off SA+TA, because you kill so fast thatSA+TA will not be ready in time to kill the mob from skillchain.

Best situations with thf and rng is the following, I did this as thf and it helped immensely. Rng pulls mob, Thf also goes out for the pull. Thf pulls out weapons and hits monster all the way back to camp, usually you will not steal hate from the rng, and the monster still follows back to camp after rng. this helps thf get maybe 20-50% tp just on the pull. For thieves that want to try this, you have to draw weapons, and on your screen run in front of the monster to actually hit it. We all know about server latency and mobs not being where they really are on your screen, hence why you cant swing at a monster when chasing it.

anyways, thf has already 50%ish~ tp, and rng has no problem getting tp quickly. tank vokes and proceeds like normal, rng stands behind monster, thief behind tank. rng starts skillchain, mob turns, thief finishes skillchain with monster being safely tricked back on tank, mage burst, monster dead. Really no time for initial fuidama and it helps thieves not be so gimp in exp PTs. on the other hand, i dont know any other thieves that do this, so i dont like to invite thieves as my rng lol (this "trick " is all post-sidewinder ~.^) multiple rng pts for me plz^^

[imac2much]

Karinya, I agree with you, but I think we are on two different pages here. First of all, I was never saying that parsers tell you what job is *best*. I am talking about pure DD's. Parsers will tell you how much damage you are doing, taking, in melee, ranged, skillchains, etc. I agree BRD, RDM, etc won't look great in parsers... but so what? I know that :p I'm not saying a 6RNG PT would be the omg best in the entire game anyway.

Originally posted by Karinya
They don't see damage from Bio, Poison, elemental enfeebles, and don't take into account the effect of absorbs; even Drain is often counted for the wrong amount (the log shows how much HP the caster gained, which is often less then the amount the monster lost).

You're absolutely correct that parsers do not count DoT spells well. But are you saying that DoT spells are making up for all the damage they are doing less than a RNG? That would be implying that you are doing as much damage in DoT as with direct damage, if the RNG is doing 2x the amount of damage as a BLM or DRK.

Next, I agree that every DD job has other uses than just pure DD. DRK, for example, has absorbs, THF can obviously manage hate, DRG can be a good trick partner, has wyvern, and can drop hate, etc etc. However, in certain PTs, if you have enough RNG, their insane cumulative direct damage will overpower the need for any of those nuances other DD jobs bring. Why do we need any of those if we can just blast 3 sidewinders on a Peryton to bring it from 50% to 0% in 2 seconds?

Skillchain damage is usually counted wrong too (just because *monsters* are stupid enough to think that the closer did the whole SC by himself, doesn't mean that players should duplicate the error). Avatars and wyverns are often not counted at all (either the person who recorded the log had them filtered, or the parser doesn't understand how to count them).

The parser I have separates skillchain effect from other damage. And I never parsed anything with a DRG anyway.

Anyway, RNG can be good, but their accuracy is inconsistent even when well equipped (against ITs, at least), which is especially trouble for skillchains. (Maybe this improves with Prelude, but you know how rare bards are.)

My RNG ACC was over 90%. I think that's miles above any other DD. In fact, RNG has the best ACC of all DD's, since they have 4 acc up traits, and +rng acc gear is cheap and easy to obtain. The only "accuracy" issue is with ranged WS, but that isn't a problem if you just build tp a bit. Our BRD dropped for 30 minutes or more, and we still killed and chained raptors and perytons (with just 5 people) until he came back. Accuracy isn't an issue for RNG relative to other DDs.

And they can't work with thieves well - they often can't even afford to provoke to set up SATA (if they sub war at all), let alone have it done on them the way WAR, MNK, SAM can. And then there's their tendency to screw up hate control, and sometimes move a dangerous AOE user toward your fragile backline - RNG could really *really* use some major -enmity gear, but I don't think they get much if any. There are definite downsides to rangers, along with their big damage numbers.

Actually RNG work well with a THF if you want to make a conventional PT. Sidewinder -> SATA dancing edge is great, along with Arching Arrow -> SATA shark bite. Rng can pull, be secondary tank (while utsusemi eats initial hits) so THF can do first SATA onto the tank at start of battles. Also, I'm always at frontlines (melee damage is good for building tp, and also contributes well at 63 with francisca) so the latter point isn't really a problem.

Let me repeat, I never said parsers will show which jobs are best or not. However, when you are looking for DDs, that is exactly what you are looking for : damage. This is recorded in parsers.

SAM for skillchains, BLM for MBs, DRK for absorbs, etc etc... yes that is nice. But can that honestly make up for the crazy brute force damage a RNG puts out? In my experience, no. In all my parties as PLD, I never made more than 5k xp/hr unless I had multiple RNGs. With 2-4 RNG in a PT, 5k xp/hr is a low number; you can usually get much more, depending on spawn and competition.

It's all about the end product. Sure, all those other DDs may have something to contribute that a RNG cannot. But in the end, what PT setup kills faster with less downtime: i.e. more XP/hour? We're talking about fastest XP when we talk about an optimal PT right? And that definitely comes from multi-RNG PTs. Brute force wins over subtlety in this game.

P.S. Every RNG I get in multi-RNG PTs sub NIN. If I subbed WAR, I'd obviously do more damage, but I'd get even more hate, so I would have to hold back. Actually I would have to hold back a ton more, since I have no utsusemi to keep me alive, and thus mages would waste more MP healing me. RNG/NIN already get enough aggro (as can be seen by the amount of absorbs and damage I take in parsers... almost equivalent to our NIN tank), so I don't really see the point of RNG/WAR in this scenario (unless ill equipped). As a PLD, I only liked RNG/WAR if I had a THF or DRK/THF (post 66) for him to skillchain with. RNG/WAR is probably the most damaging job/subjob combo in the game in terms of brute force, but they would die too quickly in a PT without THF IMO, making them hold back, and losing all advantages /WAR sub would give.

[coolffxi]

NO RNG SUCK!!!1 go some other job like "The all powerful DRK!!!" or mayb a BLM! BLM MAJOR DD! i wana be a rare rng whos dmg is below a drk..

[Cat]

Lets just dispel all the rumors right now... Rangers powerful?

I'm a 74 RNG I rarely post in forums... I can't play right now games down for me so Ill pull up some parsed info and post it here this is from monsters in lower kuftal tunnel and Im using a gun in a party full of rangers I'm half asleep not really using all my JA's just trying to push myself to ding 74... Monsters here have about 4000-5000 HP


Cayne 73/36(RNG/NIN) yes after i dinged 74 we ended the pt...
Average Damage: 1508.83

Stone 74/37 BLM/WHM a very good blm actually
Average Damage: 921.8

This is only after 30 fights in my parser...

I didn't pull big numbers or find a log that glorifies rangers in fact this log is lower than most of the logs I have because no one was using acid bolts for me Ive had parties with multiple rangers that use defense down bolts and you see fights where rangers do over 4000 dmg with this combo here:

Ranger TP (100) at start of fight from previous

puller pulls with acid bolt lowering mobs defense

Ranger uses barrage and sharpshot so sidewinder wont miss.. note: that when you use barrage the weaponskilll doesn't use ur barrage effect up the following shot does...

Slug Shot with Hellfire (1800-2300) dmg to flying mob) TP from 1 shot 17 - 18 Ranger TP now 18

ranged attack with barrage effect (1000 dmg or so) adds 90 TP so 108 total now

slug shot again (1800-2300 dmg) this whole time utsusemi ni is eating the hits and it doesnt really matter cuz this mob is dead

so whats the total damage about 4600-5600

and with sharpshot we dont miss often at higher levels also with AF pants its pretty good chance of hitting all those hits

[Cat]

also in all my time as a ranger ive seen 1 eagle eye shot miss and it was durring my Maat fight when i used a blink band and maat missed his Eagle Eye shot against me... I dont even think that should count