Are Rangers really powerful?

[poweryoga]

would it kill you to listen sometimes dan?

god forbid you learn something. -_-

[Kilgraw]

<insert "my job is better then your job" flame>

[Cat]

The comment lynsy made about the ninjas is probalby true ninja would outdamage anyone if htey used shuriken like rng use arrows. (probably)

Nice parses by the way and nice job explaining what was going on in the parties nice to see some info that will pretty much end the non-sense.

Dan are you still saying in a 3/3 party THF will outdamage ranger?

You don realise specifying the party makeup is kind of manipulation.

If I pt with 5 WHMs I can solo a VT mob and do 100% of the damage afterall.

If youre arguing that 3/3 is a "normal party makeup" then I have to ask why you consider it a normal party make up. I think you should consider that its only normal for THF and when a THF actually parties WITH a ranger the THF damage will reduce most likely because the ranger is doing more damage than a normal melee and there are less monster HP left to claim for the THF leftover (I am having trouble wording this)

Mabye this helps:
IF
Mob has 1000 hp
Ranger does 600 per fight
leaves only 400 to claim for everyone else

If theres no ranger and a weaker melee job in his place
doing 300 dmg per fight it leaves 700 for everyone else.

Perhaps your parses can be explained by this. Its a fault when comparing two things to have two varriables (changing the THF with RNG would be 1 and if any other jobs change that would be a second) however sometimes you have no choice so it's understandable to do this dan.

Unless you are comparing DPS for an entire pt vs another then changing two jobs wouldn't be a problem.

[Caspian]

Originally posted by Cat
Mabye this helps:
IF
Mob has 1000 hp
Ranger does 600 per fight
leaves only 400 to claim for everyone else

If theres no ranger and a weaker melee job in his place
doing 300 dmg per fight it leaves 700 for everyone else.

Perhaps your parses can be explained by this. Its a fault when comparing two things to have two varriables (changing the THF with RNG would be 1 and if any other jobs change that would be a second) however sometimes you have no choice so it's understandable to do this dan.

Unless you are comparing DPS for an entire pt vs another then changing two jobs wouldn't be a problem.

Best explanation I think I've heard on why his parses might be this way (obviously we cant say for sure, we'll have to ask him his pt makeup), never thought of that but it sure as hell would change numbers drastically. Good job

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Lynsy
The MNK would provoke the mob off and all SATAs would be on the WAR--usually done to conside with WAR recasting Utsusemi.

OK, so the THF wasn't using second SATA on you. That's consistent with a 4 or 5 melee party.

And, no, the situation for me as a WHM to outdamage a PLD at 67+ on bones isnt that bazaar -- it takes a total gear change worth <100k to acomplish it.

Your exact statement was, "Does this in any way shape or form mean that a WHM is a better damage dealer than a PLD from 67+?" WHM as a DD is a bizarre situation in and of itself.

If your point was simply that WHM could do more damage than PLD vs. bones, I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that, but I don't see the point. PLD's job isn't to deal damage; it's to tank. Any exp party where a WHM and a PLD are focusing their gear on raw damage output would reasonably be classified as "bizarre."

I agree, with certain mobs, in certain situations a THF could outdamage a RNG at certain levels--however the arguement was that they "do" and has become "if things go oh so perfectly for the THF, they shoud."
Stop picking arguements and then, when its pointed out that you are wrong, shifting them slightly over and over so you can claim that you still are correct ~.~

I stated the conditions from the very beginning. I clarified that I was only talking about 3 melee/3 mage parties (arguably the most common party setup) over 15 pages ago.

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
I was referring to standard 3 melee 3 mage party dynamics.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
We're considering both jobs operating at full potential right? So why would you consider comparing a RNG that is *intentionally* limited in their damage by having SATA on them? He wouldn't be at his full potential right?

It shouldn't be a factor. Without the THF, the RNG (or any other DD) is strictly competing against the tank's hate generation (in a standard party setup). With a THF, the tank's hate generation is boosted (by the damage of SATA). If THF tricks on both the tank and the RNG, then the net effect on hate (for the tank and the RNG) is zero; you're back to the normal dynamic of RNG hate management vs tank hate generation.

If the THF is second SATAing on some other job, then RNG has a higher hate ceiling that they wouldn't have without the THF there.

You have theoretically 3 other jobs to choose from to SATA on (other than THF, RNG and tank). Yes, BLM would be bad choice. But how about BRD? WHM? As a PLD I've had these situations and they have NEVER gotten aggro.

I have yet to see a mage class volunteer (or allow themselves) to be tricked on, so I didn't include that as a factor. I guess you could, but I certainly wouldn't consider tricking on mages standard practice.

[Lynsy]

Dan, do everyone a favor and stop sucking your e-penis long enough to come up for the fresh breath of air that is reality.

If your point was simply that WHM could do more damage than PLD vs. bones, I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that, but I don't see the point. PLD's job isn't to deal damage; it's to tank. Any exp party where a WHM and a PLD are focusing their gear on raw damage output would reasonably be classified as "bizarre."

Actually, I wasn't trying to a be a DD...I was meleeing because it was a BRD/RDM/WHM PT and None of the mages ever had to rest so I figured WTH, I wanted the 1.2 club skill points to get black halo quest, and did it in normal gear while still keeping up with WHM duties...And yes, I'm aware that PLDs aren't intended to be damage dealers, however I doubt many people would dispute that in that capacity they are better than WHMs. I wasn't proposing that WHMs and PLDs are damage dealers, but they do have some capacity to deal damage. I fail to see how stipulating that it be a BRD/RDM/WHM/PLD/dmg/dmg PT at 67+ on bones varies, on a base level, from you stating its a 3mage/3melee PT from 15-45 where the THF can trick off a damager (except more people would contest tricking off a RNG than would contest XPing off bones). :spin:

But either way, my point was that you are taking a situation where what you say may or may not be true even in that situation, however is only possible because of a severe handicap you place on one person versus yourself (I.E. -- Some WHMs, depending on other factors, may outdamage PLDs 67+ on bones because club gets a dmg bonus and sword gets a dmg reduction and hexa is pretty >.>) to your benefit. Very few, if any, THFs I know make it a habit to trick off a RNG...Why? Because its dumb -- RNGs are there to do damage and pull hate enough, why...the...fuck...would you conciously chose to limit their damage output for your own sake also giving them an even higher likelihood of pulling hate? Oh, that's right...Cause you're a selfabsorbed moron ~.~

And yes, Dan...you did state the conditions on page 4, I remember--however, there is one point that you seem oblvious to (well, more than 1...but we'll start there).
Tricking off the tank and then later off a DD != the same as never tricking...Ask any tank worth anything and they'll tell you that. Hate decreases overtime--the hate generated from any action is a big burst followed by a slow and steady decline. This decline is sped up by taking damage. If you trick off the tank and then later on a DD, the hate has declined from the TA to the point where you are, at that moment, placing more hate on the other DD than the tank has left from TA--the dynamics are no longer the same, because, well, the situation is dynamic and time is a factor. If you had 2 THFs both SATA on a PLD and a RNG at the same time for the same ammount, sure the hate situation would be similar--but thats not what you are proposing.

Oh, and BTW...you said NOTHING about 3melee:3mage PT in your first post.

You made a sweeping generilzation

Based on different parsing I have done with my THF and my RNG, I honestly think that from 15-~45ish THF is the most damaging DD in the game, but doesn't get much credit for it.

based on an already ridiculous situation

This assumes a party where THF is allowed to do max damage. Specifically, I mean a party with a good tank (one that doesn't need SATA to do their job). In these parties, THF can drop two SA(+TA) in the first 30 seconds or so (one on tank, one on other DD), and it's really hard for any other DD to overcome that huge lead.

and then continued to add other limitations to it as people poked holes in your statement

I was referring to standard 3 melee 3 mage party dynamics. Although I usually did the most damage in all my parties during those levels, the margin was generally greater with THF (according to logs).

etc.

Now, all of that being said--I WSed for ~150 on average and did so roughly twice as often and the THF. The THF SATA VBed for ~300 dmg (Ill say 350 to make you happy) and normal SATA for ~150. My normal hits were ~90. His normal hits were ~15(x2). I was also far more accurate, but hell...we'll pretend thats not a factor. We'll also pretend I never got a melee hit in. We'll ignore the fact that my near double TP rate meant twice as many SCs and MBs. That means, normal attack rounds I did ~60 more damage than the THF. We'll consider half of my WSs as balancing with the THFs SATA's without WSs. So, he gets a 200 damage lead from SATA VB over my WSs...I can make up that damage gap in 3-4 attack rounds. Sorry, but you are not going to kill it fast enough for me to not make up that damage gap--If you did, SATA wouldn't be available again.

Also, you mentioned that skill difference was removed as a factor comparing your THF to your RNG--I disagree, Im a far better WHM than I am RNG but...Im the same person. Your aptitude with one job does not necessarily correlate to it with another--I agree good players are usually good at most every job and bad players are bad at most every job, but there will still be a noticable difference at a persons skill between 2 jobs.

I agree with Rugals analysis after you psted originally--sure, it might be true but a statement with that many limiting factors is largely irrelevant when you try to apply it to a general situation.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Lynsy
And yes, I'm aware that PLDs aren't intended to be damage dealers, however I doubt many people would dispute that in that capacity they are better than WHMs. I wasn't proposing that WHMs and PLDs are damage dealers, but they do have some capacity to deal damage.

The point is, since PLD's goal is not to do damage, bragging that you may do more damage than them (as a WHM) doesn't mean anything, whereas a THF doing more damage than a RNG would (since both of them are actually trying to do damage).

But either way, my point was that you are taking a situation where what you say may or may not be true even in that situation, however is only possible because of a severe handicap you place on one person versus yourself (I.E. -- Some WHMs, depending on other factors, may outdamage PLDs 67+ on bones because club gets a dmg bonus and sword gets a dmg reduction and hexa is pretty >.>) to your benefit.

What is this "severe handicap" you are talking about? Tricking on RNG is nothing of the sort, as long as you are tricking on the tank first. I guess you think that it's an unfair handicap for RNG to be tricked on, yet totally fair for RNG to get the increased hate ceiling afforded by THF tricking on the tank?

Very few, if any, THFs I know make it a habit to trick off a RNG...Why? Because its dumb -- RNGs are there to do damage and pull hate enough, why...the...fuck...would you conciously chose to limit their damage output for your own sake also giving them an even higher likelihood of pulling hate? Oh, that's right...Cause you're a selfabsorbed moron ~.~

That's funny, because as an alternative, the suggestion is to what... trick on a mage? Not trick at all? Who's being selfish here?

THF almost universally does 2nd SATA on the third melee in a 3/3 party, unless the tank is incompetent and actually needs the THF to help do their job, which is a condition I eliminated from the start.

For all this talk of not tricking on 3rd melee in a 3/3 party, I have never seen a mage volunteer to be tricked on so the DD isn't "severely handicapped". You have a WHM, right? Do you volunteer to be tricked on in parties with a THF?

And yes, Dan...you did state the conditions on page 4, I remember--however, there is one point that you seem oblvious to (well, more than 1...but we'll start there).
Tricking off the tank and then later off a DD != the same as never tricking...Ask any tank worth anything and they'll tell you that. Hate decreases overtime--the hate generated from any action is a big burst followed by a slow and steady decline. This decline is sped up by taking damage. If you trick off the tank and then later on a DD, the hate has declined from the TA to the point where you are, at that moment, placing more hate on the other DD than the tank has left from TA--the dynamics are no longer the same, because, well, the situation is dynamic and time is a factor.

That's correct. However, the first SATA still allows the 3rd melee to do more (initially) than they would have been able to do without it, even if they have to hold back after the 2nd SATA. A decent tank should be able to get hate back almost immediately after the 2nd SATA unless the RNG started going absolutely nuts after the 1st SATA; a condition that the RNG would not have been able to do without the first SATA's hate boost to begin with.

Oh, and BTW...you said NOTHING about 3melee:3mage PT in your first post.

Yes, I actually clarified it in my 5th post. 15 pages ago. So if you want to accuse me of rampant waffling and flip-flopping during the three posts in-between, feel free. The only example during that timeframe of people "poking holes" in my statement (regarding party dynamics) was imac's mention of multi-RNG parties, which even he agreed is not a party THF would be invited to.

[ClydeArrowny]

because club gets a dmg bonus and sword gets a dmg reduction

Just to clarify:
Damage Bonus on bones is with blunt weapons - Club, Grapples(H2H), Staff
Damage Reduction on bones is with piercing weapons - Daggers, Arrows, Bolts, Bullets, Spears(except Bourdounase[sp?]), Rapiers
Slashing type weapons have no bonus or reduction on any type of mob - Greatswords, Scythes, Greataxes, Swords not of the rapier type, Greatkatanas, Katanas

I think I may have left a few weapon types out, just cant bring them to mind right now.

With the right set-up and enough creative thinking, I, as a taru WHM/SMN, can out damage a PLD/WAR at certain levels on certain XP mobs (67+ on bones in particular)...Does this in any way shape or form mean that a WHM is a better damage dealer than a PLD from 67+? If you want parsings of that, Ill be glad to oblige.

I believe this is very possible. Whm usually cant melee for crap because of low skill no where near the cap(and at higher levels errant gear.) Square gave whm a good capcity to melee assuming you have full skill cap and a few acc+ items which every melee needs anyway. Hell, I saw a lv50 JP PT in quicksands with a whm/war tank doing a great job in both keeping hate and hitting for a good amount close to what a pld would do. Imo, the problem with whm doing stuff other than being a cure and buff tank is the limitations people have placed upon themselves about the job.

The comment lynsy made about the ninjas is probalby true ninja would outdamage anyone if htey used shuriken like rng use arrows. (probably)

It is 100% true. Ninja friend of mine throw some fumas(10k per one[not 1 stack only a single throw] on ragnarok) and did 200 dmg a hit on lv mobs....keep in mind this is with 192 delay.

In some far fetched, overly idealistic situation, I may be prone to believing a THF will outdamage a RNG, but as far as anything practical goes, I beg to differ.

Well, this whole thread is about the optimal situation, or so it seems. Also, though a top notch thf will out-damage a top notch rng for most the levels mentioned if both have every single equip possible, even ones that cost 10 mil+ and thf uses ranged attacks with multiple equipment sets. HOWEVER this thread is talking about the ideal situation between a thf NOT using ranged attacks and a rng using all it has. In this situation I believe the rng will beat the thf in damage no contest.

Also let me say, thf and rng are probably the 2 jobs best suited for each other. Rng may outdamage thf....but the thf allows the rng to do more dmg than they would have originally been allowed to do. Well....at least before genkai4.
It is off topic...but just let me say this one thing. A great tank has no need of a thf past 65 unless a war or pld tank gets less hate than a nin tank which most people say is not true. So even if thf can perform a great job in PTs at lower levels, they suffer at higher levels in ideal PTs. Nin+rng+thf+whm+rdm+brd was the PT. Fights were on darters which rng and thf both get dmg bonus on which would seem to give the rng a much better chance of pulling hate. The rng was the puller as he had stryders, he was using silver bullets and gun and had all the rng equip anyone would dream of including peacock charm; and on top of all that he was subbing war. Fights would last approximately 30 seconds each meaning I, the thf, had no time to fuido on the nin to give him initial hate. The nin held hate perfectly until the renkei(switched between slug>dance and heavy>shark) in which he would lose hate, however the renkei also killed the fly meaning losing hate didnt matter one bit. Also....rdm didnt even have time to MB as the renkei killed the mob, and he could have added on a 500+ dmg MB to it so saying a thf's strong WS killing the mob was a factor doesnt really count. Keep in mind this nin is, in my opinion, the best EN nin on ragnarok when hes awake(which he was during this PT...but is usually drained from 12 hr work shifts and not up to par.) However, having a great tank is not very common in a pick up PT, which gives thf some usefulness in those PTs to help the tank control hate. With most tanks, that rng/war would have died in a heartbeat if he went all out as he did in this PT, which is hate control would help in the average PT but not the ideal one in which a rng is present.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
What is this "severe handicap" you are talking about? Tricking on RNG is nothing of the sort, as long as you are tricking on the tank first. I guess you think that it's an unfair handicap for RNG to be tricked on, yet totally fair for RNG to get the increased hate ceiling afforded by THF tricking on the tank?

This is ridiculous. Of COURSE it's a handicap to trick onto a RNG. Are you nuts? And what do we get out of it? Ability to do more damage? Psh, most of my PTs are WITHOUT THF, and I guarantee I still do more damage than if someone replaced me with a THF. Good tanks do NOT need a THF to control hate. Good tanks can control hate all the way until the big guns are busted out at the end of the fight. We do not need THF. Tricking onto a RNG IS a handicap, and if you think otherwise there's something wrong with your logic.

That's funny, because as an alternative, the suggestion is to what... trick on a mage? Not trick at all? Who's being selfish here?

Trick onto tank twice? Trick onto BRD? Trick onto another DD? That's what happens 99% of the time. No GOOD THF tricks onto a RNG... maybe we're overestimating your intelligence in playing the job.

That's correct. However, the first SATA still allows the 3rd melee to do more (initially) than they would have been able to do without it, even if they have to hold back after the 2nd SATA. A decent tank should be able to get hate back almost immediately after the 2nd SATA unless the RNG started going absolutely nuts after the 1st SATA; a condition that the RNG would not have been able to do without the first SATA's hate boost to begin with.

I still don't understand why you keep bringing about these situations. Your claim was NOT "THF does more damage than RNG if they are in the same PT." RNG do NOT need THF in their PT to do MORE damage than them. We do not need your "benefit" from SATA'ing onto the tank to do more damage. Conversely, stop bringing up the situation where the THF will do a 2nd SATA onto the RNG. This is ridiculous.

Your statement is that THF is "overall best DD from 15-45 but does not get credit for it", assuming THF does not use ranged attacks. So you're saying most THF are best DD, but people just don't realize it.

You can keep "waffling" as you described yourself, or changing your mind, making excuses, whatever. Everyone knows you never admit when you're wrong, even when the vast majority of proof, evidence, and opinions side against you.. it's obviously an anti-dan conspiracy isn't it?

You know, fighting in KRT against spartoi warriors and mages at high levels, a WHM/NIN with kraken club and Mjollnir most likely outdamages a RNG with optimal equipment. Is this enough to say "I believe WHM is more powerful DD at high levels than RNG, but don't get credit for it." NO! Providing extreme conditions that are rarely met is not a basis to make a general all-encompassing claim like what you made.

Think tricking onto a mage or 4th melee is rare? Well, heck, it's freakin more common than tricking onto a RNG.

You can change your original claim to, "I think in certain situations, THF has the potential to be the most powerful DD at some levels" and it would be 100% true. Depending on setup, competence of RNG, tank, and other jobs, weapons, monsters, etc, it is definitely a possibility. But the same can be said about DRG, MNK, DRK, WAR, etc. It's not a breakthrough claim.

Saying, "Based on different parsing I have done with my THF and my RNG, I honestly think that from 15-~45ish THF is the most damaging DD in the game, but doesn't get much credit for it" is totally different. You're making a huge general statement (which you still believe even though most evidence and opinion is against you). A better man would have taken the high route and admitted that perhaps his parsing is not enough to make such a bold claim... but not our man Dan. The art of graciously admitting fault is lost with this one.

[Cat]

Just to add my two cents...

Tricking onto a RNG is no better than tricking on a mage. We dont have heavy armor we dont have defense bonuses infact due to my +1 sniper rings I have lower defense than some mages. I have utsusemi but at 15-45 you dont have utsusemi till 24 and you never get utsusemi ni. Also some attacks dispel the blink effect and as a general rule if I take hate I have to recast utsusemi to get my optimal 6 blinks and durring the time I'm recasting I can't be shooting/meleeing also a double attack timed right can destroy utsusemi and some RNG are left with the choice of either

1. keep doing damage while getting hit at the cost of ur WHMs MP
2. try to recast utsusemi and risk getting interupted over and over until hate changes or the mob misses us. at the WHM's MP cost

(lets also remember if a WHM cures us too much you are also putting your WHM at risk)

Both descisions lower the RNG damage output so why would you trick on us. Its retarded to increase one party members damage output by 200 if you decrease the other members damage by 300+ (3 hits + tp) and put them at risk of harm or death (especially if u risk the WHM). Come on, I thought you were a good THF. Rangers are just BLM that cost more money :p . You wouldn't trick on a BLM would you?:

[Anakron]

Originally posted by imac2much
This is ridiculous. Of COURSE it's a handicap to trick onto a RNG. Are you nuts? And what do we get out of it? Ability to do more damage? Psh, most of my PTs are WITHOUT THF, and I guarantee I still do more damage than if someone replaced me with a THF. Good tanks do NOT need a THF to control hate. Good tanks can control hate all the way until the big guns are busted out at the end of the fight. We do not need THF. Tricking onto a RNG IS a handicap, and if you think otherwise there's something wrong with your logic.

I think what Dan's trying to say is that if the THF tricks onto the tank first, and then on the RNG, the THF effectively did not trick onto anybody. Giving the tank 300 damage's worth of hate and then giving the RNG that same 300 damage's worth of hate is the same as giving neither any additional hate.

I actually think even if the THF tricks onto both, it's giving slightly more hate to the tank. In any given battle, if the THF SATAs 2 times, it's usually

1) [SATA] then [RNG WS + SATA WS]

or

2) [RNG WS + SATA WS] then [SATA]

In the first case, the SC along with MB at the end is most likely going to kill the mob, so the additional hate on the RNG shouldn't matter too much (especially RNG/NIN).

In the 2nd case, the SATA + WS on the tank is much more powerful then the 2nd SATA on the RNG, so it's still effectively giving the tank an advantage.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
Good tanks do NOT need a THF to control hate. Good tanks can control hate all the way until the big guns are busted out at the end of the fight. We do not need THF. Tricking onto a RNG IS a handicap, and if you think otherwise there's something wrong with your logic.

So if a good tank does not need a THF to control hate, what is the problem here? THF will SATA on both tank and DD, which ultimately evens out. Yes, there will be a short immediate spike on the RNG right after the 2nd SATA, but as long as the RNG was playing normally (and not taking extreme advantage of the first SATA) then the tank will be able to get hate back right after 2nd SATA.

Trick onto tank twice? Trick onto BRD? Trick onto another DD? That's what happens 99% of the time. No GOOD THF tricks onto a RNG... maybe we're overestimating your intelligence in playing the job.

"99% of the time?" How much have you played THF?

I guess here we have to come to a decision. From what you guys are saying, either THF simply does not join 3/3 parties, THF tricks on a mage-class for 2nd SATA, or THF does not do a 2nd SATA at all (unless the DD consistently takes hate, which REALLY shouldn't happen with a decent tank that's being tricked on).

Where are all the other THFs in this thread to comment on this? Again, for all this talk of tricking on BRDs and WHMs, I have yet to see any mage-class volunteer to be tricked on, yet now it's supposedly standard practice?

I still don't understand why you keep bringing about these situations. Your claim was NOT "THF does more damage than RNG if they are in the same PT." RNG do NOT need THF in their PT to do MORE damage than them. We do not need your "benefit" from SATA'ing onto the tank to do more damage. Conversely, stop bringing up the situation where the THF will do a 2nd SATA onto the RNG. This is ridiculous.

Obviously, if THF is SATAing on both tank and DD, there is no benefit to the DD. The benefit is to everyone else in the party (higher overall hate threshold for them) and (theoretically) in more total party damage output.

You know, fighting in KRT against spartoi warriors and mages at high levels, a WHM/NIN with kraken club and Mjollnir most likely outdamages a RNG with optimal equipment. Is this enough to say "I believe WHM is more powerful DD at high levels than RNG, but don't get credit for it." NO! Providing extreme conditions that are rarely met is not a basis to make a general all-encompassing claim like what you made.

So are you saying that a 3/3 party where THF does 2nd SATA on the DD is an "extreme condition"? From everything that I've seen as a THF and partied with THFs, it is the most common condition. In fact, I would venture to say that in nearly every party I've ever seen with RNG/NIN + THF, the THF has tricked on the RNG. Were you talking about RNG/WAR this whole time?

If 3/3 parties where THF does 2nd SATA on 3rd melee is an extreme, ridiculous, totally unacceptable scenario, why is this just coming out now when I clearly stated that as the condition within the first five posts I made?

[neighbortaru]

um, my experience with THF is limited to the 40's (so make of that what you will), and that was a long time ago. Regardless, when playing as THF in a 3/3 party with a RNG as DD, I had the RNG turn the mob with spam range and a WS, then used the second SATA onto the tank again. Never, ever attempted second SATA on the RNG unless I was sure my strike would be the killing blow.

[Cat]

So if a good tank does not need a THF to control hate, what is the problem here? THF will SATA on both tank and DD, which ultimately evens out.

The more recent trick attack will outweigh the original trick attack. Not to mention this adds more restrictions on when the THF can use his TP.

If you uses SATAWS on the 2nd trick then you have a hate control problem to deal with (though you may argue the mob is almost dead now, a strong sickle slash, final sting, or screwdriver attack may end the ranger if his utsusemi falls which happens a lot when the mob double attacks at the right time). Which could lead to an MP problem if it happens too often and the WHM has to heal the 2nd trick dummy. In the best case scanareo the Ranger you trick on will have to cast utsusemi again and this takes valuable time we could be getting TP and more damage. It's hardly worth the trade off.

If you dont use SATAWS you have to wait till the start of the next fight so everyone in your skillchain has to do the same. Your strategy as a whole seems to gimp the other party members constantly. My last post explained it well enough but you dont reply to posts unless I mess up a minor detail in them so you can focus on that. Mabye I should have said scorpion arrows don't bundle or something in that post huh?

Edit:

um, my experience with THF is limited to the 40's (so make of that what you will), and that was a long time ago. Regardless, when playing as THF in a 3/3 party with a RNG as DD, I had the RNG turn the mob with spam range and a WS, then used the second SATA onto the tank again. Never, ever attempted second SATA on the RNG unless I was sure my strike would be the killing blow.

Yes, I've seen this technique and it is MUCH better than tricking on the RNG because there isn't a damage comprimise. In fact, the added hate control allows the ranger to do even more damage.