Are Rangers really powerful?

[Lynsy]

Oh, I forgot, I said Id post some parsed Data for THF vs RNG at 33-36 range.
This is based off my 2 most Recent PTs with THFs, the first with an Elvaan and the later with a Hume.
PT 1:
WAR/NIN, MNK/WAR, RNG/NIN(Taru), THF/NIN (Elvaan), WHM/BLM, BLM/WHM
Over the 41 parsed fights (the second half of the PT, I kinda forgot to turn it on at first ;x) I did 17,721 dmg to the THFs 12,319 dmg (melee +ranged damage, not WSs or specials). Additionally, I did 3,740 dmg from ws versus 3,244 dmg from the THF. I did 2,413 dmg from abilities (barrage), the THF did 0. Obviously, neither of us did spell damage, so our overall totals were as follows:
RNG/NIN Tar - 23,876
THF/NIN Elv - 15,741
On top of that, we did 992 damage from Piercing > Viper = Distortion.

PT 2:
WAR/NIN, MNK/WAR, RNG/NIN(Taru), THF/WAR(Hume), DRK/WAR, SMN/WHM (yes, it was very melee stacked).
Over 63 parsed fights, I did 26,191 dmg to the THFs 16,659 (Melee + Ranged, not WSs or specials). Additionally, I did 5,411 dmg from WSs versus 5,398 dmg for the THF. I did 4,012 dmg from abilities (barrage) and the THF did 0. Totals:
RNG/NIN Tar - 35,614
THF/WAR Hum - 22,057
On top of that, we did 1,566 dmg from distortion.

PTs went as follows:
Mob 1)
THF pulled, MNK voked, THF SATA on WAR, when MNK and I have TP we do Flaming Arrow > Combo = Fusion. I usually finished fight with ~30-40 TP.
Mob 2)
THF pulled, MNK provokes, I stand directly behind MNK incase I pull hate it wont shift, barrage > Piercing Arrow > SATA Viper Bite = Distortion. Shoot/Melee to death. Usually ended fight with ~100 TP
Mob 3)
THF Pulled, MNK provokes, immediately do Flaming > Combo = Fusion, shoot/melee down. Usually ended fight with ~100 TP.
Mob 4)
THF Pulled, MNK Provoked, Piercing Arrow > SATA Viper Bite = Distortion. Melee/shoot until both MNK and I have TP then do Flaming > Combo and finish the mob.
Mob 5)
THF Pulled, MNK Provokes, SATA on WAR, when I get TP, MNK provokes, Piercing to SATA VB = Distortion to kill it.
Wash, rinse repeat.
I was getting roughly 160-170TP for the 200 (in both PTs) the THF and MNK were getting together, doing roughly 6 SCs every 5 mobs, 3 with MNK and 3 with THF--was doing roughly the same proportion of damage, too.

Pre-Viper Bite, the disaparity was even larger.

[imac2much]

Wow Lynsy! This is very in depth and thankfully gets this thread right back on track... thank you.

I may sound biased since I am obviously a RNG supporter, but this does show some good solid information for once. To play the devil's advocate, I may suggest that perhaps the THF wasn't "playing to potential"... what are your comments on that? Was he a good THF in your opinion? If possible, was there anything he could have done better to increase his overall damage? And if so, would that have been enough to bridge that huge gap between his damage and yours?

It seems to me this level range is optimal for THF too, since he has both SATA and viper bite. Like you said, the disparity would be even larger from 30-32. From 15-29, one of Dan's reasons for THF being better overall (not needing to hold back) would be moot since they don't have trick attack. Also note if you take out the RNG barrage damage from each PT, RNG damage was still overall higher... pre-30, RNG would lack some of their ACC equipment and traits (but still have more than THF by far) and barrage, whereas THF would lack both trick attack and viper bite.

From this parse it seems RNG is still more damaging than THF, and you admit that this THF was even using ranged attacks (I think we can all agree a THF using ranged attacks to complement his melee does more overall damage than a THF doing straight melee like Dan's).

However, I'll be the first to admit that a single parse isn't enough to "prove" per se the RNG vs THF debate in one way or another, but it sure provides the most factual evidence for these levels in this thread so far.

[ClydeArrowny]

Heh, I wish I was on the same server as you so I could parse some lv30/40 cap fights with you imac =P Although personally I believe rng beats thf in total dmg by quite a bit, I also believe I could do better than the thfs Lynsy PTd with from how it seems the PT went.

To Lynsy: Where was this PT and what mobs did you fight? On the second PT how were you able to get enough TP every fight with all those melee unless they were gimp? On my taru I was PTing in garlaige the other day with RNG/NIN SAM NIN BLM SMN RDM and peircing>enpi>disto>MB on beetles, Hobaku>split>frag>MB on bats, would take a good chunk of its life. Other than MB no blm nukes....only melee dmg(well for 99% of the fights)...and rng and sam could barely get enough TP to renkei at the proper time. With 5 good melee I don't see how everyone can get TP at the rate you say, so I assume they were gimp. IMO some mobs would die before rng had a chance to renkei if you had 5 good melee since the 2 not in 2X2 renkei can renkei with each other.

and you admit that this THF was even using ranged attacks

I don't see where Lynsy posted this, but I just may have overlooked the line.

[Lynsy]

Skill wise, the first THF was good-- he plays a DRK/THF so has some experience with the whole set up outside the 3-4 levels he had had TA on THF, his gear was a bit above average, but not top-notch since it was sub leveling to him, but was at a racial disadvantage compared to the other THF. The first THF missed 3 SATA VBs (Which, BTW dropped the damage gap from 200-400 to 25-35, so I do believe that whoever said they were hitting SATA for ~150 may have been right, or IMO, was connecting SA but not TA or something--if you can do that, I do not know).
The second THF was newer to the whole thing and had some difficulties for the first part of the PT setting up SATA quickly and such, but got better by the end.

And while you could make the arguement they weren't playing to their full potential, I don't think I likely was either as I have very little experience in anything that resembles a melee job and have quite a bit of difficulty with things such as remembering that I do in fact have JAs (when Im used to WHM where all I get is Divine seal which I use less than most people use their 2hrs). I'm getting better, and can say from other parsed PTs Ive done a lot more damage than other RNGs without pulling hate (guess that makes me a smarter ranger?) but still am quite aware I have a long way to go. Regardless, how much potential would they have to fill to make up a 50% damage gap?

I'll check later to see if I parsed a PT with a THF 28-32 (I didn't parse anything before then, can't remember if I PTed with a THF or not >.>) if you want another comparison. Either way, I agree that 1 parse does not define a comparison between 2 jobs, just was trying to add to it. =]

Oh, and as for the original purpose of the thread, I can post data from my level range between RNG and MNK, THF, WAR, DRK, PLD, BLM, or DRG if it'll help any.
The MNK is staticed with me, and does a lot more damage than I ever considered--he actually outdamages me on certain mob types or if I use XBow (probably doesnt help that he's elvaan and Im taru ) and he tanks (way to make me feel useless >.>)

[Lynsy]

Originally posted by ClydeArrowny
To Lynsy: Where was this PT and what mobs did you fight? On the second PT how were you able to get enough TP every fight with all those melee unless they were gimp? On my taru I was PTing in garlaige the other day with RNG/NIN SAM NIN BLM SMN RDM and peircing>enpi>disto>MB on beetles, Hobaku>split>frag>MB on bats, would take a good chunk of its life. Other than MB no blm nukes....only melee dmg(well for 99% of the fights)...and rng and sam could barely get enough TP to renkei at the proper time. With 5 good melee I don't see how everyone can get TP at the rate you say, so I assume they were gimp. IMO some mobs would die before rng had a chance to renkei if you had 5 good melee since the 2 not in 2X2 renkei can renkei with each other.

As far as damage goes, we basically replaced a BLM with a DRK and traded THFs (The WAR, MNK and RNG were the same, the other 3 were different). The DRK did slightly less damage over all than the BLM did--which means The MNK, THF and I still had the same amount of mob life to build TP, a little more actually. BLMs do nuke outside of MB, if they arent they are (in most situations) worthless, IMO. The WAR and the DRK did not renkei, and the DRKs TP was somewhat nerfed by the fact that he was an MP fiend and kept having to rest for it. Gearwise, the DRK wasnt gimped--but he was a taru and did a lot of enfeebling vs dmg.
Both PTs were in garlaige on Bats and Beetles.

[imac2much]

Ah, Clyde, I may have misinterpreted Lynsy's post. This is why I thought the THF was using ranged attacks:

Originally posted by Lynsy
I did 17,721 dmg to the THFs 12,319 dmg (melee +ranged damage, not WSs or specials).

...

Over 63 parsed fights, I did 26,191 dmg to the THFs 16,659 (Melee + Ranged, not WSs or specials).

But looking back on it, I guess the "ranged damage" is talking about herself (the RNG) and perhaps the THF's pulling... not that the THF is necessarily using ranged attacks. Sorry for the confusion :sweat:

By the way, this:

Originally posted by Lynsy
Regardless, how much potential would they have to fill to make up a 50% damage gap?

summarizes how I feel in a nutshell about your parses. I agree with you, but I didn't want to come off as overly biased or anything... but honestly I don't see how the THF could "live up to their potential" in order to fill such a wide gap of damage.

[ClydeArrowny]

BLMs do nuke outside of MB, if they arent they are (in most situations) worthless, IMO.

My taru blm did enfeebles....which would draw hate -_- then would MB for ~350....draw crazy hate and almost die....and sit for the rest of the fight. I would aspir every time a beetle was pulled, sometimes with ele seal and I'd still have MP trouble as the fights were so fast(6-7k an hour). INT was +31 with food i believe....MP while resting+2 or so....seers shirt+HQ melon pie, whatever that is. Basically, if I nuked more I wouldnt have had enough MP for nukes and enfeebles and might have died.

or IMO, was connecting SA but not TA or something--if you can do that, I do not know).

You can....either crappy thf or crappy fuido partner can account for it.

But looking back on it, I guess the "ranged damage" is talking about herself (the RNG) and perhaps the THF's pulling... not that the THF is necessarily using ranged attacks. Sorry for the confusion

Lol np, I figured you may have thought that...was a bit confused at first though =P

Edit: tired...wrote errant shirt instead of seers...changed >.>

[Spider-Dan]

Interesting data. I don't recall parsing a 4-5 melee party, so I'm not sure if I could provide a potential explanation. Obviously, landing all their SATAVBs would help, but probably not enough to put them over the top in your party config.

I would suggest, though, that THF is one of the most party reliant jobs in order to max your damage. While nothing in this game is brain surgery, getting SATA down (in the early 30s when you just get TA) and being able to deal with trick dummies does take some experience. Given two people that aren't used to playing the job (or with inexperienced parties), RNG would less impacted than THF.

Nevertheless, this is useful information. I'd like to see a 3 melee/3 mage party to compare it to what I remembered seeing, but that will probably have to wait. Question: was the THF doing the second SATA on you or one of the other melees?

[Lynsy]

One THF was using ranged, not much, but did about 10% of their dmg with it (I believe it was the hume, but Id have to look again). The other only did for pulls.
If your BLM pulled hate enfeebling, your tank sucked. Period. My BLM did 10,940 damage, not including DOTs and never pulled hate.
He failed 3 SATAs in the entire PT, which lasted about twice as long as I parsed for...3 SATAs out of around 100 really isnt bad, 5 if you include the two times it dropped to around half normal SATA damage (likely as a result of landing SA but not TA or vice versa). One SATA failed because the MNK moved the mob at the request of the WHM and it hadnt resettled before SATA went of. One because I pulled hate with my WS, which is why we decided I should stand directly beind the back up tank so when that happened, it didnt shift. The others, I honestly don't know what happened.
And yes, I agree Dan, somewhat--THF would be more impacted by incooperative PT, however the first THF plays a late game DRK/THF--SATA doesnt change from THF to DRK except the damage modifier.
I have no parsings for a 3mage/3melee PT post-TA with a THF as all PTs with a THF I have had have been 4 melee post-30. I do have a parsing for one pre-30 with PLD, RNG, THF, RDM, BLM, WHM if you want that...but if you are contesting that THF should be doing more DMG, then you will like that one even less.

[Caspian]

Awesome parsing lynsy, good job

BTW: I posted this a couple pages back, and it was pretty OT but I was still wondering if anyone ever had those kind of problems with barrage or not?

[ClydeArrowny]

If your BLM pulled hate enfeebling, your tank sucked. Period. My BLM did 10,940 damage, not including DOTs and never pulled hate.

Dont be so quick to judge. My tank was a nin who knows how to tank(lv75 war) and has plenty of experience in other roles of PTs (75brd & 73whm). He has 1.8 million in nin equips at these early lvs. Ninja doesn't get immediate hate as pld does but has to build hate. Initial provoke wasnt enough to cover bio2(for our trigger happy rng who forgets he has utsu)+blind+choke+drown+sometimes poison. The ninjitsu enfeebles and elemental ninjitsu would draw hate back, however they take time to cast meaning I was getting hit a couple times after I pulled hate. He then held hate as i rested a tick or two till the renkei happened, then I'd MB for 350~ and draw hate again. After 2-3 mob attacks he'd usually get hate back(couple times I didn't pull hate from MB but was rare.) Rng and sam both gain TP quickly, meaning more renkei+MB than most PTs. With MP+ while resting food and only doing enfeeble+aspir+MB and still constantly running out of MP how could I still throw in a bunch of nukes and not lack MP for enfeebles and MB? Note, whenever I was not casting I was resting MP, and my aspirs hit for 30-80MP. Also...if both my blm and the nin tank sucked, how were we getting 6-7k an hour in garlaige with rng+sam+nin+rdm+blm+brd?

Oh and Lynsy, though it would be a small amount of damage, were you close enough to be able to parse thf damage the thf did pulling every time? If not that might add on 500-1k dmg depending on what weapon the thf used and how skilled they were in that weapon.

Now back on track a bit: Hmm, thinking back thf probably could keep dmg up with rng or beat rng dmg if and only if they used multiple equip sets and constantly used ranged attacks from 15-30. Post 30, im not sure if thf could hit bow enough times to keep up with rng without peacock charm at 33. However Dan posted his thf only used pure melee attacks, so I greatly doubt a thf at full potential excluding ranged attacks at 15-45 could beat a rng at full potential 15-45.

[Lynsy]

The problem with this whole arguement lies in this:
With the right set-up and enough creative thinking, I, as a taru WHM/SMN, can out damage a PLD/WAR at certain levels on certain XP mobs (67+ on bones in particular)...Does this in any way shape or form mean that a WHM is a better damage dealer than a PLD from 67+? If you want parsings of that, Ill be glad to oblige.

If you want to sit here and argue that if everything is 100% ideal and all things go perfectly in favor of the THF then they will out damage others, fine, go ahead. But consider the fact that most people will still say "if its a perfect world" a shuriken using NIN will outdamge anyone, and yes, that means at 30 as well---but its not a perfect world, so deal with it. In some far fetched, overly idealistic situation, I may be prone to believing a THF will outdamage a RNG, but as far as anything practical goes, I beg to differ.

In theory, you could duo Genbu -- but things would have to go so ridiculously perfectly and would take such a ridiculous amount of time and require so much money that it is, for all intents and purposes, impossible. You're making the same kind of arguement here--"well if they did and had and the PT did and the situation was such, then a THF could outdamage a RNG at these levels." Maybe, but seriously, who gives a fuck...It wont happen. Thats like claiming horror head 2 is the perfect helm for PLD because it gives +50 enmity...on new moon, lights day day time. :spin:

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Lynsy
The problem with this whole arguement lies in this:
With the right set-up and enough creative thinking, I, as a taru WHM/SMN, can out damage a PLD/WAR at certain levels on certain XP mobs (67+ on bones in particular)...Does this in any way shape or form mean that a WHM is a better damage dealer than a PLD from 67+? If you want parsings of that, Ill be glad to oblige.

My point was that in a standard 3/3 setup, based on the logs I saw, THF will put out the most damage. It's not like I'm suggesting some crazy party with 3 THFs, a RNG, and an RDM/WAR tank. The only real condition I'm asking for is a 3 melee/3 mage party who allows THF to use SATA when it comes up. I qualified this condition at the very beginning.

One question I had for you earlier, Lynsy: in the logs you provided, was the THF doing second SATA on you or one of the other DDs?

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
One question I had for you earlier, Lynsy: in the logs you provided, was the THF doing second SATA on you or one of the other DDs?

This concept never sat well with me.

We're considering both jobs operating at full potential right? So why would you consider comparing a RNG that is *intentionally* limited in their damage by having SATA on them? He wouldn't be at his full potential right? You have theoretically 3 other jobs to choose from to SATA on (other than THF, RNG and tank). Yes, BLM would be bad choice. But how about BRD? WHM? As a PLD I've had these situations and they have NEVER gotten aggro. A good PLD will never allow healers or support mages to get aggro in a PT... it's just not feasible. (We are, after all, talking about a group working at full potential) A PLD should have enough defense and good MP management of his own cures and flashes (along with aggro JAs) so that healer never gets aggro. I've held aggro from DS Curaga III (though no smart WHM will use something like this in a PT). A good NIN will take such little damage that even in uh-oh situations where the WHM has to cure, they won't get aggro. So SATA on a mage, or BRD, or something.

Also if you have another melee, might as well SATA on them and not the RNG... you know the RNG will be doing more damage than them.

I think the argument whether the 2nd SATA was on the RNG is moot. Considering this discussion is among THF and RNG at full potential, it's unfair to intentionally handicap the RNG.

Dan, based on the logs you saw, THF did the most damage. No one will argue with that, and you are entitled to your belief based on it. Based on other logs and other people's experiences, RNG did the most damage. There has been proof shown for both sides, although you have never displayed your parses (I trust your word, I'm not saying you're lying). I guess it just depends how GOOD your RNG was, and how GOOD the THF in Lynsy's PT was. Neither are noobs, and both are trying to play to their potential. So I guess it's hard to say with just one person's parse on each side.

And again, my offer still stands to parse my RNG with your THF, but like hell I'm going to let you SATA on me to intentionally decrease my damage (since I would get too much aggro)

Btw I don't recall you specifying the 3 melee/3 mage PT at the beginning. This is your first post that started this debate:

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Based on different parsing I have done with my THF and my RNG, I honestly think that from 15-~45ish THF is the most damaging DD in the game, but doesn't get much credit for it. (note: From 30-32 a gun RNG would probably outdamage THF.)

This assumes a party where THF is allowed to do max damage. Specifically, I mean a party with a good tank (one that doesn't need SATA to do their job). In these parties, THF can drop two SA(+TA) in the first 30 seconds or so (one on tank, one on other DD), and it's really hard for any other DD to overcome that huge lead.

Since you never specified only 3 melee, if you have 4 melee, just trick onto the 4th melee. Also, we were discussing whether the PT would rather choose a THF or RNG as their 6th spot for sole purpose of dealing damage... in this case, RNG isn't even in the PT, so you can SATA all you want. On the other hand, if the RNG is chosen, THF isn't in the PT so he doesn't have to worry about someone stacking MORE aggro on him. Who would win out?

Another thing I dug up from earlier pages (scanning for where you specified 3 melee/3 mage PT):

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
And you're saying I wasn't playing my RNG properly? Seems more likely that your parties didn't know how to use a THF properly. SATA is not that hard.

Like you said, SATA is not hard. I'm not saying you played your RNG poorly, but I find it equally hard to believe that Lynsy's PT THF played his THF poorly, since he obviously isn't a noob. Thus both qualifiers have been met (capable RNG, capable THF) but with different results.

[Lynsy]

The MNK would provoke the mob off and all SATAs would be on the WAR--usually done to conside with WAR recasting Utsusemi.
And, no, the situation for me as a WHM to outdamage a PLD at 67+ on bones isnt that bazaar -- it takes a total gear change worth <100k to acomplish it.
I agree, with certain mobs, in certain situations a THF could outdamage a RNG at certain levels--however the arguement was that they "do" and has become "if things go oh so perfectly for the THF, they shoud."
Stop picking arguements and then, when its pointed out that you are wrong, shifting them slightly over and over so you can claim that you still are correct ~.~