Are Rangers really powerful?

[Cat]

Clyde,
Obviously my point was that he didn't maximise his damage. If he didn't do this why should I think that he is a good enough ranger to be considered to compared to anyone.

He also pointed out that he didn't do 100 dmg per hit. He's a gimp thats why simple as that. You don't have to try to manipulate things If you use the gear I said and use food you will break 100 dmg consistantly and have about as high of an accuracy rating as possible it should break 80% consistantly on exp mobs.

The point is, when they do hit they will do more damage than horn. Why then is he not getting higher damage results than you claim you got per single hit?

Different gear, Food, support job, exp mobs, party configuration. Pick one. If he didn't do as much as many of the rangers here claim to do he is a gimp. A below average ranger simple as that.

[Cat]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan

• first SATA on tank gets messed up "all the time"
• daggers do slashing damage
• Viper Bite ends Reverberation
• at start of fight, Flaming/Piercing Arrow will pull hate from a tricked PLD who just voked
• SA stacks with Gust Slash
• Gust Slash is acceptable to use in exp party
• SA+VB does less than 150 dmg at LV33
• Silver arrows don't quiver

Ill go through these. Some of them I are accurate.

SA does mess up when hate changes suddenly.

Daggers and knives do slash damage polearms and ranged weapons do piercing.

Viper Bite ends reverbication -- I mix up reverbication and distortion sometimes. I dont remeber saying this but I probably did.

I said that a strong WS can change hate and cause a sneak attack to fail this happens all the time especially when the thf takes too long to SATA. (SATA often makes other members hold back for a while like this or not use their WS right when they have 100 tp or use abilaties right when they are available)

Gust slash is acceptable in dunes... none of the dagger weaponskills when a THF is in dunes are good. Shadowstitch and wasp sting are equally worthless.

SA+VB does 150 dmg at lv33 first I never said that. I said if you gave a level 20 thf VB it would do about 150 dmg. with SA only. I also said it was hypothetical I also said don't over analyse it. I said this because if I say a THF sataws does anything less than 500 at level 33 you cry like a baby. And If I say a ranger hits for 100 you cry like a baby. If I say SATA under 300 dmg you cry like a baby. The fact is sneak attack is not consistant on its damage. You're taking the best dmg SATA and acting like you can hit that hard everytime. Ranged attack DO tend to do the same damage over and over unlike SATA which can varry by hundreds of damage.

Silver arrows quiver. My mistake but you missed the point. They are still a horrible choice for ammo and that was my point but here you go distracting people from the focus of my argument AGAIN. I realised that right after I posted it and I would have edited it but I got a party invite and I wasn't going to leave my PT and logout just to avoid super THF's insults.

lets not loose track of the main points here: (try to focus responses below this point of this post so we can get somewhere)

1. THF can't keep up with a fast paced party and still land multiple tricks per monster (by fast paced chain 5+) Means under 1 minute between monster deaths.

2. THF can't even land 1 trick if they party is going to go to chain 6+ (30 seconds between deaths)

3. A good ranger should have 80% accuracy or higher at 15+

4. A good ranger can and will do 100+ dmg at level 30+ (they dont NEED acid bolt to do this) --this point is not important though because to outdamage a thf they don't need to do anywhere near 100 per hit see below in bold --

5. THF trick attack dammage is more inconsistant than ranged attack

6. THF get TP much slower than rangers because ranged attack and melee timers both start ready and advance simotaneously part of the time such as durring abilaties and weaponskills and durring a brief part of the ranged attack.

7. Dan's ranger didn't equip himself as well as what I've posted to be a good ranger's equips so his rng wouldn't be considered by me to be good enough to compare to a good THF.

8. You've said next to nothing to indicate how a THF can outdamage a ranger in a party. All you do is say THF > RNG and attack me with minor unimportant details about my posts like whether silver arrows quiver. You did propose that thf Trick the tank then the DD, guess what, THF do that all the time its not that unorthidox thats how your supposed to do it. You still don't compare to a ranger in damage because you can only average 1 SATA per minute at best. Don't use pulling downtime to your advantage, a good party wont have enough for you to SATA twice. Without tricking twice every fight your argument is nonexistant especially since SATA hits for 2x 1 ranged attack (this is what you said earlier) and SATAWS is 3x a ranged attack (you also said this). I guess the rangers only need to fire 2 per fight shots to = your damage then unless you viper bite then we have to shoot 3. Hmmm come to think of it if you did SATA twice per fihgt we'd only need 4-6 shots to land huh.... We pulled, thats 1 shot right?

--- Pay attention to this part -----
So if you do 1 SATA:
- 1 shot durring the fight will tie us with you (plus the pull dmg)

If you do 2 SATA durring the fight
- 3 shots will tie us (plus the pull dmg)

If you do 1 SATA + 1 SATAWS
- 4 shots will tie us (plus pull dmg)

If you have enough time to do 2 SATA the RNG has enough time to hit well over 4 shots durring the fight. Mabye twice that many.

Note: This doesn't even consider Ranger weapon skills.

Here is a retorical question to think about:
Q: If a member has to hold back his abilaties so THF can SATA should this count against the THF dmg? (Like if a DRK wants to souleater but has to wait because it might mess up THF SATAWS.) or if a blm has full mp and holds off nuking for the same reason. I realise sometimes this is only 5 seconds or so but often thats the difference between chaining and not chaining.
Which can mean an extra 1k-2k an hour exp.

[ClydeArrowny]

Originally posted by Cat
Clyde,
Obviously my point was that he didn't maximise his damage. If he didn't do this why should I think that he is a good enough ranger to be considered to compared to anyone.

Most people don't go to the extreme maximum for damage. I understand this thread is about the maximum potential, but you dont have to make such broad statements that arent really relevant to the current discussion.

Originally posted by Cat
He also pointed out that he didn't do 100 dmg per hit. He's a gimp thats why simple as that. You don't have to try to manipulate things If you use the gear I said and use food you will break 100 dmg consistantly and have about as high of an accuracy rating as possible it should break 80% consistantly on exp mobs.

quote: The point is, when they do hit they will do more damage than horn. Why then is he not getting higher damage results than you claim you got per single hit?



Different gear, Food, support job, exp mobs, party configuration. Pick one. If he didn't do as much as many of the rangers here claim to do he is a gimp. A below average ranger simple as that.

Different gear: Possible, but he did state he has "all the good gear" meaning if not "1337" it should at least be above average.
Food: Staple food is meat mith; I greatly doubt Tokitoki ate a different food than this unless it was a chief kabob which adds the same amount of STR and one tenth of one percent more attack.
Support job: Pre 30 sub really doesnt affect the damage per shot.
Exp mobs: First, he said he was fighting "IT" mandras. Second, do you honestly believe someone is gimp for fighting a mob that wont maximize damage for that one job if it is better for the PT's exp overall?
Party config: Only way this would affect damage is brd minuet or a second rng using xbow for acid bolts. Also, do you believe someone is gimp for not being invited to the optimal PT setup?

Accuracy does not affect the damage per shot in any way. You seem to constantly like to bring up you have 2 HQ hawkers . Good for you you probably have good rng acc; however it does not mean you will be doing more damage per shot because of them. Tokitoki had quite a bit less rng acc than you, but seemingly had higher DMG equips. This accounts for stronger, less accurate attacks. Stronger attacks do more damage. Less accurate may mean less damage over time but that is not what we are analyzing. We are focusing on the number of damage done in a single hit.

Now considering there factors, how could a RNG with a higher DMG rating, albeit less accuracy rating, hit for a whole 20 dmg less per hit on average?

Originally posted by Cat
So can rangers and rangers get an accuracy bonus the entire time they level through dunes and they get sharpshot and rangers necklace. If you'd read the thread you'd have seen me post that many times by now.

Rangers do get accuracy bonus where thf doesnt. Rng also gets rng necklace than thf doesnt. That's rng acc+15 which is significant. However subjob of rng gets sharpshot too. It's not rng specific.

Originally posted by Cat
You don't have to try to manipulate things

How am I manipulating things? I quote a point that is posted and counter it with a point of my own. Can you counter my counter-points? If so please go ahead, but you seem to have disregarded many of the points I have stated.

EDIT:

Originally posted by Cat
Daggers and knives do slash damage polearms and ranged weapons do piercing.

Daggers and knifes do piercing damage along with polearms, arrows, bolts and bullets. Throwing weapons generally are not piercing type. It is a widely known facts daggers and knives are piercing types. Personally I doubt you have a high lv thf if you do not know this.

EDIT 2:

Originally posted by Cat
You still don't compare to a ranger in damage because you can only average 1 SATA per minute at best. Don't use pulling downtime to your advantage, a good party wont have enough for you to SATA twice.

SATA timers can count down while you are pulling. Basically you are saying including pull time a good PT should kill 1 mob per minute at the slowest. Assuming 200 exp on average per kill(a good PT would chain up to 300 and have a much higher average number) you would be making 12,000 exp per hour in a PT of this setup(60 minutes * 200exp/minute = 12,000 exp.)

EDIT 3:

Originally posted by Cat
Gust slash is acceptable in dunes... none of the dagger weaponskills when a THF is in dunes are good. Shadowstitch and wasp sting are equally worthless.

First, gust slash is never an acceptable WS for lv PT. Dagger thf pre 33 is a worthless member of a PT and gimped to no end. Sword and grapples are the only 2 acceptable weapons for thf in lv PT pre-33. Also, no elemental WS such as gust stacks with fuido.

[Elsurion]

Dagger do piercing not slashing. I always had a problem with boneys and pierching resist mob. Doing only around 50% dmg of them isn't nice... For boney or piercing resist mob (not exp mob) i'm normaly switch to dual sword or h2h.
on exp mob it's dagger and sword for some big deal dmg.

[Cat]

SATA timers can count down while you are pulling. Basically you are saying including pull time a good PT should kill 1 mob per minute at the slowest. Assuming 200 exp on average per kill(a good PT would chain up to 300 and have a much higher average number) you would be making 12,000 exp per hour in a PT of this setup(60 minutes * 200exp/minute = 12,000 exp.)

Yes, but i think we figured it to be more like 10k an hour because things happen from time to time that interupt that flow and perhaps a brief pause after a chain breaks to recover mp and let some respawns come in.

As for the rng who didn't do 100 per hit a lot of people thing they have "good gear" I say his gear is gimped because of the fact he can't keep up with the other RNG who are doing 100+ some of whom have posted that they do so. But they don't count afterall that would be devistating to the THF side of this discussion...

When I talk about accuracy and damage its because I said a RNG can consistanly do over 100 dmg per shot. If you miss half your shots you aren't very consistant now are you. I was not suggusting that higher accuracy = higher damage per shot. I never said that, this is what I mean by you manipulating what I said.

[Cat]

SATA timers can count down while you are pulling. Basically you are saying including pull time a good PT should kill 1 mob per minute at the slowest. Assuming 200 exp on average per kill(a good PT would chain up to 300 and have a much higher average number) you would be making 12,000 exp per hour in a PT of this setup(60 minutes * 200exp/minute = 12,000 exp.)

more like 10k an hour because some mobs don't give 200 exp when your pulling that fast you can't be too picky. This isn't hard in Elshimo on madys and suicidal goblins. You're looking for a PT makeup like 2NIN/war to trade hate 2 RNG/NIN a WHM and a BRD or if you want you can probably take 4 RNG/NIN and throw hate around a bit more.

I was never trying to say accuracy makes you do more damage per shot this is what I meany by you manipulating what I said.

I said a RNG can do 100+ dmg consistantly at level 30 if you have bad accuracy you don't do very consistant damage now do you. Also if he didn't get good accuracy gear more than likely he didn't get good damage gear either.

We are talking about potential in this thread so yes a good party is a must. Afterall, if the THF gets a good PT, so do I. Thats fair isn't it? If you are going to post saying your RNG doesn't hit for 100 and you know you dont have the same or better gear than the people who are claiming to do 100+ or a good party makeup then why are you posting... He also didn't post his damage party makeup current level etc. Enough people are saying yes (they)'ve seen 100+ dmg consistantly from RNG at 30 that you should accept it as an amount of dmg a good RNG can do at that level and either Admit that RNG do more damage then THF there or state your counter argument with 100 dmg as the normal RNG damage per shot.

[bonovoxpsu]

this thread has become worse then the drk vs mnk threads.

jesus, can we just let this go?

[imac2much]

Just adding my two cents:
Cayne, along with polearms, bullets, bolts, arrows, both dagger/knives and rapiers also do piercing damage.

[Cat]

Originally posted by Elsurion
Dagger do piercing not slashing. I always had a problem with boneys and pierching resist mob. Doing only around 50% dmg of them isn't nice... For boney or piercing resist mob (not exp mob) i'm normaly switch to dual sword or h2h.
on exp mob it's dagger and sword for some big deal dmg.

Enough people said this I'll accept it however. The flying mob I was refering to most at these levels is Damselfly in dunes. If dagger weaponskills aren't good enough to use you are most likely using sword or H2H which means RNG > THF in dunes while on flys say through level 17 or 18 because RNG get that bonus while THF don't unless they wana use gimped weaponskills.

[imac2much]

Hm, I didn't even think about that but it's a good point. Since I think this debate was focused around level 15-45, it should be noted that more thal 50% of that level range an optimal THF will NOT be using dagger (from 15-32) except to skill it up, and thus in essence they do have slashing damage.

Honestly I don't think it makes too much difference since you only fight flies for a little bit, but it's worth noting. I'm still of the belief RNG can consistently outdamage THF in a PT fighting IT++ even on non-flying mobs.

I've stopped posting as much in this thread because it's become a war of pride and speculation... most of the people arguing are people who cannot reproduce the circumstances needed for testing (levels are too high, etc). I agree with Bono that this thread has taken a turn for the worse and gone off on many tangents.

Since I've already presented my theoretical arguments, but don't have enough factual evidence to back it up, this is probably my last post on this topic: my offer still stands with Dan. We should meet some weekend when we're both free, get some good equipment, get some people to help us get to Promyvion lvl 3, and fight some IT's there.

Lv 40 is possible too (in Phomyian Aqueducts) but I think those monsters were VT at lv 40 on the most part. Perhaps the monsters in the level capped Pso'Xja would work? I believe some of those were IT+ at 40.

[greysenn]

3. A good ranger should have 80% accuracy or higher at 15+

What? 28-30+ maybe.
Rangers have good enough accuracy to get hate from 15 on, and thats really all they need.

[Ljarin]

Originally posted by Cat

Daggers and knives do slash damage polearms and ranged weapons do piercing.

1. THF can't keep up with a fast paced party and still land multiple tricks per monster (by fast paced chain 5+) Means under 1 minute between monster deaths.

2. THF can't even land 1 trick if they party is going to go to chain 6+ (30 seconds between deaths)


5. THF trick attack dammage is more inconsistant than ranged attack



Here is a retorical question to think about:
Q: If a member has to hold back his abilaties so THF can SATA should this count against the THF dmg? (Like if a DRK wants to souleater but has to wait because it might mess up THF SATAWS.) or if a blm has full mp and holds off nuking for the same reason. I realise sometimes this is only 5 seconds or so but often thats the difference between chaining and not chaining.
Which can mean an extra 1k-2k an hour exp.

Daggers get damage bonuses (and penalties) on the same things as Archery, could care less if it's slashing/peircing/farting/whatever type damage.

1) Wrong.

2) Wrong.

5) Really? never has been for me.

A. As a whole without a thf the pt would have to hold back nuking/abilities even more over the time of the pt because of the lack of hate control meaning slower exp overall because of more holding back than if it was simply waiting a few seconds for the thf before using whatever. And no killer skillchain closer either.
People in the pt holding back for 5 seconds creates more damage in total because of the extra damage the thf can then deal which will be putting more hate on the tank therefore people can hold back even less afterwards.

But from reading all your posts you really do assume an awful number of things about thf which are not even close to being accurate - some of it is complete trash. And trying to preach that trash to other people really isn't going to work when you aren't even right to begin with.

[Mephisto]

While I do beleive in raw damage a RNG beats THF, a capable THF, in the long run, can lead to more damage. It all depends on setup. For discussion purposes I'll use my set as an example (we have DRK/THF, but in this case, its the same). On pulls where we do a light renkei, I use virtually no MP to hold hate, because the sheer damage sticks hate on me for the rest of the fight. After the light renkei, anyone can do WHATEVER they want and never get hit. Without a THF or DRK/THF, I'd be burning 100+ mp to do the kinda damage that occurs after the SC. All in all, it leads to LESS downtime, because over the course of fights we do SC, I lose virtually no MP, and usually end well above where I started. A few nights ago I was at 300/306 MP after a chain5 because it worked out that we were able to renkei both the chain4 and chain5.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Cat
SA does mess up when hate changes suddenly.

Your exact words: "ALL THE TIME"

Daggers and knives do slash damage polearms and ranged weapons do piercing.

You vs. the world on this one.

Viper Bite ends reverbication -- I mix up reverbication and distortion sometimes. I dont remeber saying this but I probably did.

"THF tricks with viper bite for 400dmg
well give him the reverbication credit too 250dmg and 100 dmg in melee dmg"

I said that a strong WS can change hate and cause a sneak attack to fail this happens all the time especially when the thf takes too long to SATA.

"I can use a weaponskill at the start of a fight and easily pull hate off a tricked pld who just voked."

Bullsh*t. Not before Sidewinder, you can't. And unless you somehow managed to have Sidewinder before LV45...

Gust slash is acceptable in dunes... none of the dagger weaponskills when a THF is in dunes are good. Shadowstitch and wasp sting are equally worthless.

Gust slash is never, ever acceptable in exp party. Even though you shouldn't be using dagger in those levels, Wasp Sting and Shadowstitch is still better than Gust Slash, because they stack with SA and will result in higher renkei effect damage. (That is, assuming the THF is closing the SC, which yours was not.) Thanks for making your THF knowledge level even more apparent.

SA+VB does 150 dmg at lv33 first I never said that. I said if you gave a level 20 thf VB it would do about 150 dmg. with SA only.

"The fact is even if you gave him viper bite at that level he still wouldn't outdamage a RNG. He got 3 weaponskills off assuming viper bite did a generous 150 damage at level 20 (which is more damage it does at level 33 without trick on it) [...]"

Under no circumstances have I ever seen SA+VB hit for less than 200 damage. You're simply wrong, once again.

Silver arrows quiver. My mistake but you missed the point. They are still a horrible choice for ammo and that was my point but here you go distracting people from the focus of my argument AGAIN.

No, I'm pointing out that you simply have no clue on the vast majority of the subject at hand. You clearly don't know the first thing about THF at all, and most of the numbers you bring up for RNG are highly suspect. You claim to both have better accuracy than a Mithra with more AGI and the same RACC, and do more damage than an Elvaan with the same STR, same RATK, and higher damage arrows. I call BS.

P.S. What level is your "high-level THF"? I am interested in exactly how far you got with THF while having no clue about the class at all.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Cat
As for the rng who didn't do 100 per hit a lot of people thing they have "good gear" I say his gear is gimped because of the fact he can't keep up with the other RNG who are doing 100+ some of whom have posted that they do so. But they don't count afterall that would be devistating to the THF side of this discussion...

Why don't you list EXACTLY what gear you had at LV30 that allowed you to hit 100+ dmg per hit "consistently"? I'm guessing that other than Hawker's +1, VE pin, LL boots, and Nomad's +1, you had exactly the same gear as Tokitoki (oh, except he was using higher damage arrows). None of your extra equipment increases damage per hit ONE BIT, and in fact, you would do LESS damage per hit, because of your lower damage arrows. So please inform the rest of us poor, underfunded RNGs exactly how to be non-gimp and do 100 per hit at LV30.

When I talk about accuracy and damage its because I said a RNG can consistanly do over 100 dmg per shot. If you miss half your shots you aren't very consistant now are you.

Are you kidding?

Accuracy has nothing to do with damage per hit!