Are Rangers really powerful?

[Cat]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
You claim that you were doing "100 per shot" with a longbow. Pre-30, gun+bullet is D66, longbow+arrow is D48. If I'm not doing 100 damage with my gun, there is no way in hell you are doing 100 damage per shot with a D18 handicap. And again, NIN/RNG's skillcap using gun is a whopping 6-7 points behind RNG pre-30. Please don't act like NIN/RNG's gun is firing blanks.

Your ninja might as well be firing blanks if your going to compare it to a ranger. The fastest exp I ever got was in Elshimo with another ranger both of us hit for over 100 on mandys and goblins every hit other than his acid bolt for the very first hit. I guess we were lucky there wasn't a THF slowing us down huh. I doubt he'd get very many sneak attacks with 0 second pulls (pulling before the mob is dead) and 20-30 sec kills This is really the only way to get past chain 5. I believe you did say

Oh and you were trying to say THF were more useful earlier guess your chaging what you said

[quote]One might argue that that is "defeating" THF's purpose as hate controller, but ultimately, hate control is only useful if it results in faster exp. If THF SATAs on both tank and DD, then they essentially cancel out (from a hate generation standpoint) and the Tank:DD dynamic is just like a normal non-THF party.[/quotee]
Aren't you saying that THF out damage RNG in a party situation when the main goal is EXP/HR? I mean what good is high damage if we have to wait for your trick attack 40 seconds between every fight.

Yes your mithra and have +1agi over me with that gear difference but I'm elvaan and have a huge str bonus over you and the boots even out our agil. So im just as accurate and I hit harder STR affects ranged damage more than AGI (Accuracy set aside) ive tested this.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Cat
I'm not even going to respond when you make me repeat myself Ill just do this.

Instead, why don't you answer the question?

You claimed multiple times that RNG should be expected to do "100 damage per shot" pre-30. If gun doesn't even break this barrier, how the hell can longbow with 18 less DMG?

All the numbers you cite are so far removed from reality that it's not even worth discussing.

[Cat]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Instead, why don't you answer the question?

You claimed multiple times that RNG should be expected to do "100 damage per shot" pre-30. If gun doesn't even break this barrier, how the hell can longbow with 18 less DMG?

All the numbers you cite are so far removed from reality that it's not even worth discussing.

I already answered it you moron. Your trying to get me to take on a level 30 gun with a level 16 bow and your ignoring ranged attack bonuses anyway. And your ignoring that I said around 30 not pre 30

Greatbow +1 doesn't have 18 less dmg than your stupid gun.

I'll be very precise and clear.

With Great Bow+1, food, and horn arrows a ranger can break 100 damage consistantly against IT mandys at level 30. And with a powerbow he can probably do this as well if acid bolts are used.

Mabye not a mithra because elvaan have 5 STR advantage over them. But I've done it and I've seen hume do it too

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Cat
Your ninja might as well be firing blanks if your going to compare it to a ranger. The fastest exp I ever got was in Elshimo with another ranger both of us hit for over 100 on mandys and goblins every hit other than his acid bolt for the very first hit.

Do I even need to respond to this?

Either one of you was using an xbow full-time, or he was resetting his TP for each fight. And I can guarantee you that he wasn't doing 100 damage per shot with a crossbow pre-30. No way at all.

Aren't you saying that THF out damage RNG in a party situation when the main goal is EXP/HR? I mean what good is high damage if we have to wait for your trick attack 40 seconds between every fight.

No, I'm saying that the party is better served by THF using SATA whenever it's up, rather than saving it only to use on the tank (strictly for hate control).

Yes your mithra and have +1agi over me with that gear difference but I'm elvaan and have a huge str bonus over you and the boots even out our agil.

Did you just miss the entire calculation I stated?

I have 7 base AGI over you. You have AGI+8 in those three slots (head, back, feet), I have AGI+3 in the same slots. All the rest of our gear is the same. That means that I still have a (10-8=) 2 AGI advantage over you. Your STR does not affect your accuracy one bit.

So im just as accurate and I hit harder STR affects ranged damage more than AGI (Accuracy set aside) ive tested this.

Like I said, if I didn't have 80% accuracy (with more AGI and the same RACC), I strongly doubt you did.

And of course if you "set accuracy aside," STR affects ranged damage more! That's like saying, "If you set TA aside, STR helps THF damage more than AGI." You're setting aside the whole point of equipping the stat!

[Macht]

Wow, so many pages when I last saw still seem to be the same debate of what I read after my last post and what I saw on a few in-between and then what Cat summerized it as.

Unfortunatly I haven't been with THFs to often in a party to really compare damage output to say who's better. Nor have I been with a good THF that actually tries to maximize their damage output. The best damage I've seen a THF do up on my way to lv. 55 was 400 damage at 45.

At lv. 30 the THFs I've partied with only could get 200 damage, my Piercing Arrows easily matched that and we both put out that same damage at the same time. My Bow and Arrows from lv. 20 have always been at least 80 damage and peaking at 140 on EXP mobs. At lv. 30 it was average of 90 damage a shot and 155 at best. I usually coupled Berserk with my WSs too so at that time my WSs were getting out 250 damage a shot.

When I reached lv. 40 my first barrage (was with berserk and meat mithkabobs active) I let out a 516 damage hit. I play RNG/WAR and probably will always. Most of the complaints I've seen of RNG/WAR getting hate and not loosing is usually because the person playing that combination didn't learn control properly. They usually let barrage or sidewinder go after the monster has lost about 1/4 of it's life.

Sometimes I've seen this done without any skillchain or anything actually trying to finish that monster off fast so that is basically an idotic succide attack to do. When I reached lv. 45 my barrage in EXP parties was hitting a regular 530-580 damage a shot.

At lv. 50 with the War Bow +1 I've been getting 550-650 damage. A few days ago I had a great party no THF though and with all the Attack boosts my Barrage was reaching 700-720. My regular shots are nearing 200 a hit and Sidewinder I can't say yet, been lv. 54 a LONG time now (Not because of no invites I get tons still, mostly because I was more intrested in exploring areas).

Unfortunatly I can't parse quite frankly because I have absolutly 0 trust in 3rd party programs not ok by the program developers that this 3rd party program is working with. Which is why while i saw that thread of people posting how they got hacked from a parser program they downloaded only thing I could really do was LMFAO.

As far as what I've seen with parsers just about every job with some consideration of being DD at some point to reach damage capabilities that match a RNG that is using a crossbow or bow. However not a single job is able to match the damage output of a RNG with a gun.

[Cat]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Like I said, if I didn't have 80% accuracy (with more AGI and the same RACC), I strongly doubt you did.

And of course if you "set accuracy aside," STR affects ranged damage more! That's like saying, "If you set TA aside, STR helps THF damage more than AGI." You're setting aside the whole point of equipping the stat!

If you dont have leaping boots or emp hairpin you have -6 in your gear than me. +7 for being a manthra I mean Mithra. You have a whopping 1 agil over me wow I should be so much lower than you in accuracy. You said you used gun. Thats -7 ranged accuracy compared to bow (2 from bow 5 from arrow) why wouldn't I have more accuracy than you?

I made the statement STR affects ranged damage more because some people thing AGI raises ranged attack. Keep changing what I say though its getting funny. By level 30 I had 2 +1 hawkers at the time they were two of only three in the server so I'm sure we didn't really have the same gear and I'm sure I had an advantage in accuracy over you at level 30. I was asking if you had thsoe items because I consider them important for any ranger to have. If you dont have those items or at least the hairpin and +3 magna boots or something with +3 agil in your foot slot I consider you somewhat gimped. And at level 30 dual hawkers or youre somewhat gimped. You picked an expensive job you might as well get the items that make you get the most hits and damage from your expensive ammo. After all you will spend millions on Ammo before reaching 75.

[Cat]

Great post Macht very good infor for ranger damage averages. RNG/WAR is a very good combo as long as you don't hold back your damage due to hate. After Sidewinder you may ahve mixed feelings about WAR... mabye not thought since they changed cover timer. You get some neat options though like earth staff for when you get too much hate or firestaff and lightning staff if u wana see really high numbers on normal shots. My highest normal shot vs. IT was 450 on a critical vs a fly in dragon avery after some debuffs. I'd really focus on DMG over accuracy if I played a RNG/WAR and try to party with bards for prelude.
Just some stuff to think about good luck ~^

[Tokitoki]

Originally posted by Cat
I already answered it you moron. Your trying to get me to take on a level 30 gun with a level 16 bow and your ignoring ranged attack bonuses anyway. And your ignoring that I said around 30 not pre 30

Greatbow +1 doesn't have 18 less dmg than your stupid gun.

I'll be very precise and clear.

With Great Bow+1, food, and horn arrows a ranger can break 100 damage consistantly against IT mandys at level 30. And with a powerbow he can probably do this as well if acid bolts are used.

Mabye not a mithra because elvaan have 5 STR advantage over them. But I've done it and I've seen hume do it too

I was just lvling RNG today in Mandys, IT, with Silver Arrows (more DMG than Horn) and a powerbow +1 until i hit 30. The only time i broke 100 was on Piercing Arrow or Flaming Arrow.

After 30 i would hit highest of 98, crit for 110 and im using food, im Elv, ive got all the good gear, im using higher damage arrows, etc etc. Im now over halfway through lv 30 since i stopped at 5:00pm EST and havent played today since, ive yet to hit over 100 on a NORMAL damage arrow.

[John Doe III]

You can break 100 damage at level 30...

[Cat]

If you didn't break 100 I'm guessing.

You didn't use acid bolts.
And you don't have dual hawkers+1 and at least 2 or 3 of the other gear pieces from the set were talking about because u didn't claim to have them in your post.

Just because YOU didn't break 100 doesn't mean every elvaan RNG in the game can't.

Also in response to Acid bolt sometimes I just give them to other Pt members to borrow or have a second RNG acid bolt. Or as a last resort use acid bolts Immediatly after a weapon skill so they dont cost much TP. DAn's all acting like its gonna cost me some huge amount of damage.

Tokitoki, silver arrows are for rangers with mental handicaps. They are slower a lot less acurate more expensive and don't do much more dmg. And don't bundle.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Cat
If you dont have leaping boots or emp hairpin you have -6 in your gear than me. +7 for being a manthra I mean Mithra. You have a whopping 1 agil over me wow I should be so much lower than you in accuracy.

For the third time, learn to count.

I had two AGI+1 items in head and feet slot (RF. Headband, RF. Clogs). Therefore, you only had AGI+4 over me in those slots.

The point is not how much more accuracy I had over you. The point is that you didn't have more than me.

You said you used gun. Thats -7 ranged accuracy compared to bow (2 from bow 5 from arrow) why wouldn't I have more accuracy than you?

I said I used gun as NIN/RNG. As RNG, I had all the same gear you said you had (except head/feet/back), yet I didn't have 80% accuracy. So your 80% accuracy claim in the dunes/qufim is suspect at best.

I made the statement STR affects ranged damage more because some people thing AGI raises ranged attack. Keep changing what I say though its getting funny. By level 30 I had 2 +1 hawkers at the time they were two of only three in the server so I'm sure we didn't really have the same gear and I'm sure I had an advantage in accuracy over you at level 30.

Good for you. Seeing as how Hawker's Knives didn't even exist yet when I was LV30, I can pretty much agree that you probably had more accuracy. That's why I haven't even mentioned post-30 accuracy; I know you will take every chance you can get to brag about how much money you have.

I was asking if you had thsoe items because I consider them important for any ranger to have. If you dont have those items or at least the hairpin and +3 magna boots or something with +3 agil in your foot slot I consider you somewhat gimped. And at level 30 dual hawkers or youre somewhat gimped.

Yeah, I was pretty gimped for not having items that didn't exist. By the same logic, I consider you pretty gimped for not having Noct gear at LV30. (BTW, even with your 6 AGI in your head/feet slot, you still had less AGI than me... interesting definition of "gimped" you use.)

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Cat
If you didn't break 100 I'm guessing.

You didn't use acid bolts.
And you don't have dual hawkers+1 and at least 2 or 3 of the other gear pieces from the set were talking about because u didn't claim to have them in your post.

And what do dual hawker's +1 have to do with breaking 100 damage per shot? That's right, nothing at all.

Quit trying to name drop gear in inapplicable situations. We can all see from your sig that yes, you have lots of crafts leveled, and yes, you probably have lots of money.

Tokitoki, silver arrows are for rangers with mental handicaps. They are slower a lot less acurate more expensive and don't do much more dmg. And don't bundle.

You should take some of your mountains of gil and buy a clue.

It would be one thing if you made an occasional mistake about some random, obscure factoid. But this thread is filled with repeat examples that you simply don't know WTF you are talking about:

• first SATA on tank gets messed up "all the time"
• daggers do slashing damage
• Viper Bite ends Reverberation
• at start of fight, Flaming/Piercing Arrow will pull hate from a tricked PLD who just voked
• SA stacks with Gust Slash
• Gust Slash is acceptable to use in exp party
• SA+VB does less than 150 dmg at LV33
• Silver arrows don't quiver

Half of that stuff might be understandable if you had never played THF, but you claim to have a high-level THF, so...

[ClydeArrowny]

You didn't use acid bolts.

If hes using bow he can't use acid bolts without resetting TP and messing up renkei.

And you don't have dual hawkers+1 and at least 2 or 3 of the other gear pieces from the set were talking about because u didn't claim to have them in your post.

When has Ranged Accuracy been changed to increase damage per shot

Just because YOU didn't break 100 doesn't mean every elvaan RNG in the game can't.

True, but you have not stated a good reason why he shouldn't have broken 100 dmg if you didn't.

Or as a last resort use acid bolts Immediatly after a weapon skill so they dont cost much TP. DAn's all acting like its gonna cost me some huge amount of damage.

Uhh, wont the monster be a good deal dead by then? Acid bolts are most efficient when used at start of fight.

Tokitoki, silver arrows are for rangers with mental handicaps. They are slower a lot less acurate more expensive and don't do much more dmg. And don't bundle.

The point is, when they do hit they will do more damage than horn. Why then is he not getting higher damage results than you claim you got per single hit?

[Ljarin]

Originally posted by Cat
snip

You haven't read the whole thread. Nice of you to chyme in though.

===================
Before level 30 RNG get
===================
Beetle arrows +5 accuracy
Ranger's Necklace +5 ranged acc
2 beetle rings +8 ranged accuracy (bone ring+1 in dunes 6 accuracy)
Sandorian Tunic +1 AGI
Nomad mantle +1 +2 AGI (not in dunes)
Leaping Boots +3 AGI
Emperor Hairpin +3 AGI (Kingdom headband +1 agi in dunes)
Martial Slacks +2 AGI (not in dunes)
Power Bow +1 +2 ranged accuracy

In dunes:
+18 ranged accuracy ( a lot more accurate than most jobs pre 20)
+5 AGI

@ level 24:
+20 Ranged Accuracy
+11 AGI

Actually I have read the whole thread, but way to go throwing in random accusations.

You obviously failed to notice that a thf can equip themselves to have +13 (and higher) r.acc and +7 AGI in dunes, so really not enough to make the differences in accuracy you are claiming.

[Cat]

Yeah, I was pretty gimped for not having items that didn't exist. By the same logic, I consider you pretty gimped for not having Noct gear at LV30. (BTW, even with your 6 AGI in your head/feet slot, you still had less AGI than me... interesting definition of "gimped" you use.)

No, you didn't because I also had dual hawker+1s


Actually I have read the whole thread, but way to go throwing in random accusations.
.

You obviously failed to notice that a thf can equip themselves to have +13 (and higher) r.acc and +7 AGI in dunes, so really not enough to make the differences in accuracy you are claiming

So can rangers and rangers get an accuracy bonus the entire time they level through dunes and they get sharpshot and rangers necklace. If you'd read the thread you'd have seen me post that many times by now.