Are Rangers really powerful?

[Aiarin]

Originally posted by Cat
Quit changing the subject though the debate is THF vs RN 15-45 I demand you stop changing the subject and let spider dan respond to my last post.

Oh, you demand do you? I'll post whatever I damn well please, so kindly take your demands elsewhere. If you're going to attack me as if I'm trying to prove Dan's point when I clearly stated otherwise, I am going to defend my subject. If you're so single minded that you can't handle multiple subjects in an already derailed thread, don't flame me just because you assume you have a clue what you're talking about.

I try to add some facts and perspective to this discussion and all I get is a catfight. Swell. Go defend your wounded ranger pride from mean 'ol Dan. I won't stop you.

[Cat]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
[B]Seeing as how I am primarily a RNG, that's pretty funny. I must have conflicting self-hate!

The fact that you continue to argue with no support would point me to think that.

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
First off, you claim that you did a Distortion for 0 damage, yet the log does not reflect this. Why is this data missing from the log? What else is missing?

The distortion was before the last 6 fights. Thats why we stopped doing it. But I already pointed that out. If I have to say everything twice this will take a long time.

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Second, let's take a look at the damage breakdown. 8 critical hits out of 54 attacks. You mean to tell me that every single one of those 8 crits was a SA? So over the course of 54 landed hits, THF (the job with the highest base DEX in the game) did not get one plain old critical hit?

This was a parse of only 6 fights and it was pretty much 1 steady flow of mobs there wasn't always enough time for a THF to get 2 trick attacks I run a faster paced party than that. You can't get past chain 3 or 4 and still have thf tricking twice per mob. This is a normal pace for players who run through levels quickly.

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Third, you said that this was a 20THF/10WAR in the dunes, fighting against pugils:

A 20THF fighting in the dunes, doing 50-70 damage per SA? Against pugils that are T-VT?

Yea thats what happened, pugils have defensive moves that lower strength and raise their defense similar to snippers in this area.

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Fourth, again, look at that WS damage (average: 35 dmg). That is obviously not stacked with SA (even the incredibly gimped SA that you already cited). A THF that uses WS without SA speaks for itself.

He did a SA / Gustslash (I think) for 52 and one when waterwall (the pugil's defense boostwas on for only 17 with sneak attack. SA+WS doesn't parse as a critical hit so its more than likely he had 8 criticals and 3 SA+WS again your ignoring the pugils defensive abilaties.

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Fifth, with no /RNG accuracy bonus at all (you were LV19), your SAM had 76% melee accuracy. This THF, who has more base DEX than you, had 58.7% melee accuracy. Are you sure this THF had a subjob? Were they wearing the gear (and weapon) that you start the game with?

Zando had 28 hits and none critical and I only had a single critical hit. My gear was gimped so lets not bring that in as an excuse because if his gear was gimped it just levels the playing field. I don't examine exeryone in my party its rude and annoying.
It seems when we hit for 0 dmg the parser counts it as a miss. This might have something to do with a TP gained calculation he is going to put in later I'm not sure. But no ones low melee dmg is 0 and we DID hit for 0 a lot. However my katana hit through the waterwall for light damage (6-12) the one handed weapons couldn't do this. This also explains my higher accuracy.

[Cat]

Originally posted by Aiarin
Oh, you demand do you? I'll post whatever I damn well please, so kindly take your demands elsewhere. If you're going to attack me as if I'm trying to prove Dan's point when I clearly stated otherwise, I am going to defend my subject. If you're so single minded that you can't handle multiple subjects in an already derailed thread, don't flame me just because you assume you have a clue what you're talking about.

I try to add some facts and perspective to this discussion and all I get is a catfight. Swell. Go defend your wounded ranger pride from mean 'ol Dan. I won't stop you.

You're changing the subject again.:p

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Cat
The distortion was before the last 6 fights. Thats why we stopped doing it. But I already pointed that out. If I have to say everything twice this will take a long time.

Then I suggest you stop responding to the same post two times.

This was a parse of only 6 fights and it was pretty much 1 steady flow of mobs there wasn't always enough time for a THF to get 2 trick attacks I run a faster paced party than that. You can't get past chain 3 or 4 and still have thf tricking twice per mob. This is a normal pace for players who run through levels quickly.

You missed the point.

You claimed that every one of those 8 criticals was a SA. If so, then the THF did not land a single non-SA critical hit. This does not seem likely.

Yea thats what happened, pugils have defensive moves that lower strength and raise their defense similar to snippers in this area.

So wait a second... was that 50-70 SA damage "every time," or just when the defense buff was up? You were also talking about ranged attacks landing for 65 "every time;" was this with or without defense buff? Hmmm.

He did a SA / Gustslash for 52

...

SA+Gust Slash. Nice. Sorry, I'll let you finish...

He did a SA / Gustslash for 52 and one when waterwall (the pugil's defense boostwas on for only 17 with sneak attack.

Seriously, you've got a THF wasting TP on ***Gust Slash*** and you're trying to pass this off as a meaningful parse?

SA+WS doesn't parse as a critical hit so its more than likely he had 8 criticals and 3 SA+WS again your ignoring the pugils defensive abilaties.

Actually, if he was using SA+Gust Slash, seeing as how SA does not stack with Gust Slash I'm going to guess that none of those WSes had SA applied. I am amazed that you can claim to be an accurate judge of THF damage and not know this, as it makes a huge difference in damage output. But then again, you insist that daggers are slashing, not piercing damage, so...

Let me make sure I have everything correct. You had a LV20 THF in dunes, using dagger (instead of sword or H2H), and using Gust Slash (!!!).

This is the equivalent of me parsing a RNG that's using a boomerang.

If you don't see a problem with a THF using Gust Slash in SCs, that pretty much explains why you think THF doesn't do good damage.

[Cat]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Then I suggest you stop responding to the same post two times.


Way to miss the point.

Yeah I posted than elaborated after looking closer at the parse way to change the subject AGAIN.

You claimed that every one of those 8 criticals was a SA. If so, then the THF did not land a single non-SA critical hit. This does not seem likely.

Its highly probable in 6 fights because it happened to another member of the party. as i've already said once again I have to repeat myself to get the point across.

So wait a second... was that 50-70 damage "every time," or just when the defense buff was up? You were also talking about ranged attacks landing for 65 "every time;" was this with or without defense buff? Hmmm.

I never managed to connect with him durring his water wall buff I only have like 30% accuracy with my bow.

...

SA+Gust Slash. Nice. Sorry, I'll let you finish...

He did a weaponskill I am trying my best to remember which one but this was 6 fights that happened 2 days ago and I had bout 6 parties that day give me a break I can't remember every detail. He used a weaponskill for 54 dmg and once for 17 while the mob had defense up. You're changing the subject and focusing on unimportant details.

The fact is even if you gave him viper bite at that level he still wouldn't outdamage a RNG. He got 3 weaponskills off assuming viper bite did a generous 150 damage at level 20 (which is more damage it does at level 33 without trick on it) he would do 450 more damage and outdamage me by 150 damage. Now... put a ranger in my place and in 6 fights do you think the ranger will hit 3 more times than me? yes, of course he would. In fact at 80% accuracy he would hit 16 more times than me for at least 60 damage a hit if he uses beetle arrows (thats only 6 more dmg than me with irons). total comes to 960 damage. oh samurai melee harder. ok lets say the rng melees for 0 (yea right) ok - 300 dmg because thats what I meleed for. so were at 660 MORE than me for the ranger who has 0% melee accuracy and oh thats right we didn't add in ranger weapon skills did we? I mean 16 more hits thats quite a bit of TP. Nah lets leave this alone its obvious who does more damage.

I gave the THF:
3 freeViper Bites (means the thf got 300 more TP than everyone else free)
3 free sneak attacks
No damage subtracted for trading in a normal SA with Viper bite
Level 33 attack damage durring weapon skill (Actually a bit more)

I pentalised the ranger with:
0% melee accuracy (even though rng have accuracy bonus)
No weapon skills (this would add like 300 damage assuming)
A low damage estiment
No equipment or food bonuses

Super handicapped ranger still beats the Uber THF by 210 damage LMFAO.

This is hypothetical don't over analyse it.

[imac2much]

Yeah SA+Gust Slash sucks :p

Anyway, Dan would you mind respondin to my post? Seriously I am curious how a THF can outdamage a RNG, because I haven't got any theories exactly how it is possible. I already presented my case why they can't.

Some people have stated that THF can do high burstable damage at the start of the fight "and it will be hard for the ranger to catch up to if the fight is short." This argument has some inherent fallacies:
1) If the fight is short enough that a burst of SA (usually 100 dmg) then SA+FB/combo (usually 200) at start of fight is the bulk of the damage, you probably aren't fighting IT+ anyway.
2) If the fight is so short, what's the likelihood that the THF would have gained enough TP to repeat the same tactic in the next fight? Unless you're fighting T or VT or something.

If you think THF is most damaging DD at early level because they can potentially open a fight with a big burst (SA then SA+WS or at 30 SATA then SATA+WS), then you have to explain whether you are fighting VT or IT+. If that big burst is the majority of the damage on an IT+, like I said, the THF won't be able to repeat the same thing in the next fight.

I don't see any other argument or theory how a THF can outdamage a RNG, since their melee dmg is automatically less powerful and less accurate than RNG damage.

Well you can keep arguing with Cayne but whatever. As requested I presented my thoughts and just waiting for counterevidence, or as you would say, 'onus of proof'. Otherwise, let's meet in the weekend and parse (on IT+ of course, the stuff ppl would xp on, probably Promyv lvl 2 or 3).

[ClydeArrowny]

Reply to the topic: Yes RNG is powerful, it is so powerful it's in a way unbalanced imo.

Cat: That THF you were PTing with in dunes must have sucked, seriously. I'm not saying a good thf can out damage a good RNG, but you shouldn't use a very poor thf as an example of thf dmg when making a comparson such as this.
Also, 150dmg at lv20 is possible on pugils in dunes with combo and fuiuchi(SA). It's not some uber impossible act.

About THF in general: It's off subject(not concerning thf vs rng even) but I'm just posting this to try to clarify some misconceptions about THF and DD abilities. In my opinion, THF and dama(TA) is overpowered lv 30-40. For example, at lv 30, fuidama(SATA)+fast blade can literally take away 70% of the HP of a totetote(IT) sahagin. I don't have proof of this but I hope you can trust my word on this. Only thing I can think of for possible "proof" of thf being good at these levels is this. I think most people can agree that level 50-59 THF isnt as powerful compared to other jobs as 30-40. During these levels(50-59) I parsed some of my PTs and found out, surprizingly, I outdamaged "normal" DDs with good equips in total damage over the course of a PT as an elv thf; arguably the worst race possible for this job.
The parser results I have are in Japanese, and I'll willingly post them if someone tells me how to screenshot it.

Some examples since i dont know how to SS it[parser log looks a bit messy since I didnt have chat filters for a lot of the time]:
lv50-51 PT in Garlaige (since dagger has advantage on bats I filtered them out of the results, parsing beetles only. I can gladly add the bats back in, although only 1 or 2 were fought the whole PT)
Job :::: Total dmg
DRK :::: 18250
THF :::: 45415
NIN :::: 19945
BLM :::: 16300
RDM :::: 2278
WHM :::: 158

lv51-53 PT in crawlers fighting helm beetles (1 fight wasn't from this PT so I adjusted the damage accordingly[thf total dmg - 875])
SAM :::: 27374
THF :::: 37259
NIN :::: 10218
RDM :::: 30510
WHM :::: 2262
BRD :::: 546

lv58-60 PT in Teriggan fighting crabs and pugils
DRG :::: 29164
THF :::: 52915
PLD :::: 10278
RDM :::: 10682
WHM :::: 514
BRD :::: 4630

Like I stated before I have these logs on my PC, just don't know how to screenshot it. I can give more in depth details as far as WS dmg, melee dmg, magic dmg, and renkei(SC) dmg. Btw, one thing people like about THF is large renkei(SC) and I did not include that information in my damage calculations though I have it on hand(No I didn't add renkei[SC] damage to thf dmg....) Basically THF does not do crap dmg like Cat seems to be stating and can pull its own weight in PTs(I added this info so people dont think thf is crap and decide to never invite them.)

P.S. I originally imported FFXI so the Japanese terms are more familiar to me. Thus I use the term I'm more comfortable with first and put the translation in parentheses for people who dont understand. I'm not trying to be "UBAR 1337" or something. Oh and its 6AM here so please forgive any grammatical errors.

[imac2much]

Thanks for your insight, Clyde. However, here is the problem:
I don't think parses of random PT's are any indication of how powerful a job is at its full potential. I'm not singling you out at all, so don't take this the wrong way. It also applies in general, including Cayne's parses.

The problem is that in a random party, it's highly likely for a 'subpar' job to outdamage everyone else if the others have below average equipment or skill. The best way to test this is to have 2 players who both know what they're doing, with good equipment, to join a PT and take those parsings. A good RNG vs a crap THF isn't a good parsing, and vice versa.

In dunes you admit that SA+fb/combo can take off 100-150 damage (wouldn't FB be better since it's only 2 hits, and SA only affects 1 hit of WS?). That implies a normal SA will only take off 75-100 anyway. At these levels our basic ranged attacks do very close to that damage, and we're more accurate as well.

Another thing, you talk about how fast a SATA+FB or VB can kill a monster. If SATAVB+distortion really does take off 70% of the monster's life, how is the THF even getting TP? That would imply the THF can only get enough TP for WS every 2 or 3 fights, especially if a RNG is in the PT accelerating kills. This is high burstable damage, something THF is noted for, but does not necessarily equate to high overall damage.

They have strong attack at most once a minute (often times less due to outside factors, so it's probably more realistic to call it once every 1.5 minutes). Their normal melee attack is extremely subpar, and more inaccurate than RNG. Don't be fooled by high burstable damage and think it is the same as high overall damage... this is the same pitfall many new players fall into when they see Freeze magic bursts and think that is the best PT strategy >_<

[greysenn]

Another thing, you talk about how fast a SATA+FB or VB can kill a monster. If SATAVB+distortion really does take off 70% of the monster's life, how is the THF even getting TP? That would imply the THF can only get enough TP for WS every 2 or 3 fights, especially if a RNG is in the PT accelerating kills. This is high burstable damage, something THF is noted for, but does not necessarily equate to high overall damage.

It is very easy to chain 5, and have a thf SA/TA and Sa/Ta+VB per mob, if you time pulls right. This is how thf can do it.

[imac2much]

What I'm asking is this: If you are fighting IT+, and yet you are saying the burst damage is so huge that you kill the monster fast, how is the THF getting 100% TP per fight?

[ClydeArrowny]

Doesnt get 100% TP per fight on sahagins since you're refering to that. How it works reminds me of a thf+rng PT I had on darters once. The renkei is basically an instakill on them.....actually does over 100% of their HP when you add renkei affect. So you renkei one mob and kill the other while gaining TP. Blm has no chance to MB on the first mob, so he spends that MP on the second mob to help kill faster. Mob should die pretty much around when thf and renkei partner hit 100% TP again. Btw having a SAM helps a lot in this situation. SAM renkei with tank on the second mob to help kill it faster.
Think ima go to bed now so don't expect any replies soon. IMO thf cant come near to touching rng for pure dmg, but after 15 and pre60 it can stand up to all the other DDs. After 60...ehhh....I don't really wanna go into that right now....suffice to say A- weapon really hurts thf( rng is already very powerful and has lots of access to rng acc+ so doesnt affect rng as much :/ )

[Cat]

Also, 150dmg at lv20 is possible on pugils in dunes with combo and fuiuchi(SA). It's not some uber impossible act.

This is what my THF used in dunes and all the way up to upper 20's (SA + combo)and 150 is beyond their threshhold vs VT/IT mabye even vs T. Especially to do it 3 times in a row and I added this to their damamge they still had 3 35 damage weaponskills (averaged) so its 185 dmg per weaponskill.

Something interesting you might wana explain why the ninja outdamages your black mage in the top one. How many fights were these parses?

[Jaggywaggy]

I've seen similar parsing readings before from that 60+ thf guyincorporated or something like that. Showing himself( mithra thf) outdamaging everyone in his static, including the blm in the mid 50s. No idea what post it was though I'm sorry, you'd have to search under parser maybe, I'm sure it was in the thief forums. And he did say it was his static so most likely everyone was being used to their max potienal.

It's really quite different when you try working with good thieves, opposed to thieves using gust slash. And even if you didn't remember what WS the thf used, it should've been known by your knowlegde of the game that SA doesn't stack with elemental WSs. And it's not all the off topic because it shows possiblely you have extremely little experience parting with thfs, especially good ones.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
[B]Yeah SA+Gust Slash sucks :p

Anyway, Dan would you mind respondin to my post? Seriously I am curious how a THF can outdamage a RNG, because I haven't got any theories exactly how it is possible. I already presented my case why they can't.

I think your case is not an accurate representation of damage. SA will generally do at least 2x the damage of a longbow, SATA around 3x. You guys mention doing ~100 damage per shot as a RNG before or around level 30... I wasn't even doing that with a gun (as NIN/RNG), against mandies. So I think your damage estimates for longbow are not quite accurate.

Some people have stated that THF can do high burstable damage at the start of the fight "and it will be hard for the ranger to catch up to if the fight is short." This argument has some inherent fallacies:
1) If the fight is short enough that a burst of SA (usually 100 dmg) then SA+FB/combo (usually 200) at start of fight is the bulk of the damage, you probably aren't fighting IT+ anyway.

Clyde's response addresses this.

2) If the fight is so short, what's the likelihood that the THF would have gained enough TP to repeat the same tactic in the next fight? Unless you're fighting T or VT or something.

If you don't have TP, then you just do SA(TA) again.

I don't see any other argument or theory how a THF can outdamage a RNG, since their melee dmg is automatically less powerful and less accurate than RNG damage.

You mention the "big burst" fallacy, using Freeze as a reference. I would contend that you are falling victim to the exact opposite fallacy; like many, you seem to be saying that since THF's burst damage is so big, their non-burst damage is not signficant. It adds up. As I recall, not many people thought that MNKs could put out as much damage as DRKs until log parsers came along, for exactly this reason.

Furthermore, as I stated originally:

This assumes a party where THF is allowed to do max damage. Specifically, I mean a party with a good tank (one that doesn't need SATA to do their job). In these parties, THF can drop two SA(+TA) in the first 30 seconds or so (one on tank, one on other DD), and it's really hard for any other DD to overcome that huge lead.

Post-30, in order for the DD to overcome THF's lead, since THF is SATAing on both the tank and DD, the DD is potentially going to run into a wall at the tank's hate generation level. This is never a factor for THF.

[Spider-Dan]

Cayne, based on your descriptions of the damage you expect from THF, it is no surprise at all that you do not think it possible for THF to outdamage RNG.

SA+VB will easily do more than 150 damage at LV33. I've never seen SA(+TA)+VB do less than 200 damage under any circumstance (unless the mob turned, in which case you didn't actually get SA).

Every single number you throw out for the damage you expect from THF is like, a third of what a decent THF actually does. The most bizarre part is that you reportedly have a high-level THF. Is this the type of damage you were doing?