Are Rangers really powerful?

[Aiarin]

Originally posted by imac2much
But even if both delay timers aren't concurrent, how are THF more damaging than RNG from 15-45?

I never said it did. I already said my piece and let it stand on its own. I just felt like adding something that actually made sense in your and Dan's repetetive exchange of "I don't have to prove my thory as long as it sounds possible and prooves yours wrong"

Originally posted by Cat
Rugal they would much rather focus on theories and things than post parses screen shots or video to prove their point. After all its hard to get parses when you sit in forums all day...

There's no point in parses. Especially ones of such short duration as you're posting. It is fact that I outdamaged all the rangers I partied with from 25-30. If I had a parsing program, I'd have parses to prove it. What would that mean?

Nothing.

Because the damage of either class is variable, the whole argument is based on conjecture.

Can a Thf outdamage a Rng from 15-45? Yes

Does it happen? Yes.

Can a Whm outdamage a Rng? Yes.

Does it happen? Whm/Nin vs. Undead maybe? =P

Is a Thief more likely to outdamage a Rng than a Whm (or many other classes)? Yes.

The simple fact that Thf and Rng damage overlaps at these levels proves the point "Thf can outdamage Rng from 15-45". It doesn't mean it will always happen, it doesn't mean "Thief is a better DD from 15-45," nor does it mean "Rng Suxxorz."

What it does mean is, if you take a good player and an average player, the good player will probably do more damage as either a Ranger or a Thief, than the average player will do with either class.

[Cat]

Were talking about probabilities not possibilaties. Yes, If my ranger sits in the party afk THF will outdamage him don't throw more nonsense into this thread please.

If a ranger goes all out and a thief goes all out from level 15-45 the ranger will consistantly outdamage the THF assuming both players play their charactors as well as humanly possible.

When a rangers ranged attack hits as hard as a THF's sneak attack the THF looses on the parser in total damage. So THF has to wait until level 30 for trick attack at which time ranger gets barrage. And so THF still looses on the parser. There really isn't anything else left to discuss is there? But if you still feel raw about this thread Spider Dan meet me in game and we will goto the emptiness and Ill prove it once and for all as long as you wana put your gil into it. If you really believe in your THF you should see this as a great way to make some money. You'd better do it quickly though before I get too much merit.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Aiarin
I never said it did. I already said my piece and let it stand on its own. I just felt like adding something that actually made sense in your and Dan's repetetive exchange of "I don't have to prove my thory as long as it sounds possible and prooves yours wrong"

I wasn't responding directly to you. I was responding on my side of the debate. If you threw in a piece of additional info, why am I not allowed to use it as part of the debate? I never said my theory was correct, it is just that: theory. But the fact is I still don't see how THF can be more outdamaging than RNG at full potential. Yes, you didn't address it, but this is still the debate; the whole concurrent delay thing is just a tangent.

The simple fact that Thf and Rng damage overlaps at these levels proves the point "Thf can outdamage Rng from 15-45". It doesn't mean it will always happen, it doesn't mean "Thief is a better DD from 15-45," nor does it mean "Rng Suxxorz."

What it does mean is, if you take a good player and an average player, the good player will probably do more damage as either a Ranger or a Thief, than the average player will do with either class.

Since when were we just talking about good vs average player? We were talking about full potential: i.e. a THF at full potential (but with no ranged attack) vs a RNG at full potential. Your argument makes no sense; it's like saying since a WHM can outdamage an AFK RNG, it's feasible to say :

Based on different parsing I have done with my WHM and my RNG, I honestly think that from 15-~45ish THF is the most damaging DD in the game, but doesn't get much credit for it.

I just took the snippet that started the debate and replaced THF with WHM. Obviously that statement holds no credibility.

Aiarin, don't take this personally because you have good solid posts. I agree with you that short parses don't exactly provide the exact information we need, especially if we don't know the source material (player skills and equipment, etc). However, if we parse a PT with a well equipped smart THF and a well equipped smart RNG, that parse should mean something, right?

Bottom line : we're talking about good player using THF vs good player using RNG. I agree with you that a good THF may outdamage a lazy/crappy RNG, and vice versa... but who cares? A good BRD can outdamage a naked AFK RNG too.

[Aiarin]

Originally posted by Cat
Were talking about probabilities not possibilaties. Yes, If my ranger sits in the party afk THF will outdamage him don't throw more nonsense into this thread please.

If a ranger goes all out and a thief goes all out from level 15-45 the ranger will consistantly outdamage the THF assuming both players play their charactors as well as humanly possible.

You do of course, realize that you just completely contradicted yourself in one post, right?

Either you're talking about possibilities, that is, the maximum possibilities of each class-- or you're talking about probabilities and averages. Make up your mind.

And read my posts before responding. I made it quite clear that I wasn't arguing that either the average or the best of the best was one way or the other.

You also don't have to be AFK for a Whm/Nin to outdamage you against undead =P

[Cat]

Originally posted by Aiarin
You do of course, realize that you just completely contradicted yourself in one post, right?

Either you're talking about possibilities, that is, the maximum possibilities of each class-- or you're talking about probabilities and averages. Make up your mind.

And read my posts before responding. I made it quite clear that I wasn't arguing that either the average or the best of the best was one way or the other.

You also don't have to be AFK for a Whm/Nin to outdamage you against undead =P

How did I contradict myself? Possibilaties are things like you can win the lottery does that make playing the lottery a good investment? No not really. Its possible for a level 1 t ooutdamage me if I miss every shot and he dia's it. Is it probable? Quit changing the subject though the debate is THF vs RN 15-45 I demand you stop changing the subject and let spider dan respond to my last post.

I said please don't bring nonsence into this debate and you had to go and do it anyway. I'm not even going to dignify your post with a rebuttle because you left it so open ended. I'll just say that Ghosts, wolves, and shadows are undead and take full dmg from fired weapons. I will address this rediculous claim after I'm done beating the dead horse that is THF vs RNG.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
Er.... once again, why do I need a better theory just to prove your theory wrong? I already stated counterevidence if you'd just read. You are saying that there is 1.5 seconds of lag PER SHOT by spamming ctrl+D. That is ridiculous.

As has been pointed out, spamming input does not result in anything near closely knit delay.

And on the subject of proving theories, you two were the ones saying that melee and ranged timers run concurrently, to begin with. I simply said that they don't, and provided my evidence. This time, the onus of proof is on you guys, not me.

Did you even read my post man? I admitted that the arrow delay thing is probably wrong, but that there is still a fixed duration after you put your weapon away but before you can shoot again where melee timer is set off; it may not be due to ammo delay but it seems to be there, unless you are saying I have 1.5 seconds of lag PER SHOT by spamming ctrl+D.

With archery, I wouldn't be surprised if you have 1.5 seconds per shot. Like I said, try it with marksmanship.

Besides, why are we going on this tangent anyway? Your entire claim is that THF is most damaging melee from 15-45 *WITHOUT* ranged attacks. I don't think ANYONE would agree with this. You had some supporters at first (including me) assuming the THF would be spamming ranged attacks (although I now think that would only be outdamaging compared to a RNG from 28-29 or so), but if you are claiming a THF is most damaging melee from 15-45 WITHOUT ranged attacks, you most likely have no supporters. This was your original claim, please provide some backup, proof, examples, reasons, etc.

I said that based on my parsed logs, I did more relative damage as THF than as RNG. Even if I had saved my logs, the only response I would earn is the same one that's already been stated; i.e. I am a gimp RNG, all other RNGs I partied with are gimp, etc.

I'm not the only one that pointed out that the amount of damage that THF dumps on the mob in the first 20-30 seconds puts them so far ahead in damage that the mob dies before any other party member could overtake them.

To think a THF without ranged attacks can be the most damaging DD in the game is ridiculous unless you have some solid proof.

I guess it's pretty easy to win a discussion when one side (apparently, me) gets to be wrong by default.

There have been zero logs posted of RNG vs. THF in this thread. (Even the log Cayne posted of SAM vs. THF is pretty questionable... THF has an average WS damage of 35, and they did not do a single Distortion, even with a SAM in party. (Hmmm.)) I would very much like to see a log of a ~35-39 RNG vs THF. Based on my experience, I think the comparison would be substantially in THF's favor.

Since all of us are far beyond the levels to parse this in exp parties, there's not a whole lot of evidence I can provide, is there? The only option we would have is to parse a 30 cap party in Promyvion, which is pretty much the best possible level for RNG to parse from 15-45 (RNG gets a whole lot of new equipment and Barrage, while THF is still 3 levels from Viper Bite). And note that I did say that RNG could probably outdamage THF from 30-32 (though I do think they would need a gun to do it).

If you don't believe me, fine. I properly and completely qualified my statement to begin with. Based on the logs I saw, I think THF outdamages RNG from 15-45. Other people agreed with me even before ranged was mentioned, and did not mention ranged at all in their reasoning.

[Lynsy]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Since all of us are far beyond the levels to parse this in exp parties, there's not a whole lot of evidence I can provide, is there? The only option we would have is to parse a 30 cap party in Promyvion, which is pretty much the best possible level for RNG to parse from 15-45 (RNG gets a whole lot of new equipment and Barrage, while THF is still 3 levels from Viper Bite). And note that I did say that RNG could probably outdamage THF from 30-32 (though I do think they would need a gun to do it).

Gun dmg is weak until 50, but Ive just recently started out my RNG, its L34 ATM if you want me to try to mess around and parse some stuff soon.

[imac2much]

I guess it's pretty easy to win a discussion when one side (apparently, me) gets to be wrong by default.

Alright, I'll take that statement back then, to be fair. But isn't this ironic: Don't you do this all the time? Why are you complaining? The way you state all your theories and thoughts as fact has always assumed others who disagree with you as wrong by default anyway. I won't dig up old bones but you know what I'm talking about.

Anyways, I will take you up on this.

Come with me to Promyvion, lvl 30 cap, I won't use gun. Let's parse.

Come with me to Phomyian Aqueducts (sp?) or Riveaurne Site#A01 or I think one of those lvl capped xarc areas, lvl 40 cap, Let's parse.

Set up a time and we'll try to get the other pt members needed (tank, healer, etc) and we'll do this. I totally don't mind, and I will do this with an open mind. Just give me some time so I can get my gear back (I sold all my lvl 30 gear to fund goldsmithing but I have a bit of money left).

Are there any lvl 20 capped areas? Darn I can't think of any..

BTW I stated multiple times it's just my theory that we have concurrent weapon delays, and admitted I could be wrong. This is much different than your know-it-all style, which has been proven wrong on occasion anyway.

As long as you are bringing up other people's opinions in this thread, there have been just as many people saying THF *can't* outdamage good RNG at those levels as well, even coming from fellow THFs. So far the person who has brought the most logical analysis has been Narru, who initially agreed with you but if you rule out ranged attacks, Narru also thinks that RNG is stronger.

[Cat]

Seems to me he is just mad that RNG get more invites than THF and he was hoping posting would change that if word spread that THF does more dmg than RNG. Then I show a parse and he says it should be throw out because we didn't skill chain.
You know what, we tried skill chaining it and the Distortion hit for 0 damage. Keep making excuses Dan.

Then he says that RNG is gonna outdamage THF in CoP because we get barrage and noct gear (which THF get as well).

Remember my parse was with iron arrows a RNG would use beetle and do MORE dmg and be MORE accuracte at level 19 because of gear and accuracy bonus 1.

Even with gimped gear I outdamage the THF as a SAM/RNG.

Dan insists on making his claims and everytime someone wants solid proof (parses or CoP challenge) he has another excuse. Go ahead and give the THF 300 free damage per fight. Thats right, a free viper bite without using his SA/TA or TP in CoP he will still loose. It wont even be a close parse.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Cat
Seems to me he is just mad that RNG get more invites than THF and he was hoping posting would change that if word spread that THF does more dmg than RNG.

Seeing as how I am primarily a RNG, that's pretty funny. I must have conflicting self-hate!

Then I show a parse and he says it should be throw out because we didn't skill chain.
You know what, we tried skill chaining it and the Distortion hit for 0 damage. Keep making excuses Dan.

I invite everyone to take a close look at Cayne's parsed log (link).

First off, you claim that you did a Distortion for 0 damage, yet the log does not reflect this. Why is this data missing from the log? What else is missing?

Second, let's take a look at the damage breakdown. 8 critical hits out of 54 attacks. You mean to tell me that every single one of those 8 crits was a SA? So over the course of 54 landed hits, THF (the job with the highest base DEX in the game) did not get one plain old critical hit?

Third, you said that this was a 20THF/10WAR in the dunes, fighting against pugils:

I as in dunes today though and the thf were SA pugils for LESS damage than the rangers normal Ranged attack lol sneak attack for 50-70 ranged attack for 65 every hit from a taru no less.

A 20THF fighting in the dunes, doing 50-70 damage per SA? Against pugils that are T-VT?

Fourth, again, look at that WS damage (average: 35 dmg). That is obviously not stacked with SA (even the incredibly gimped SA that you already cited). A THF that uses WS without SA speaks for itself.

Fifth, with no /RNG accuracy bonus at all (you were LV19), your SAM had 76% melee accuracy. This THF, who has more base DEX than you, had 58.7% melee accuracy. Are you sure this THF had a subjob? Were they wearing the gear (and weapon) that you start the game with?

The fact that you watched this THF in action, and did not immediately think, "OMG THIS IS THE WORST THIEF EVER," but instead thought, "Wow, this is a good example of the damage output a skilled THF can be expected to do, let me go post this log," says volumes about the quality of THF that you are accustomed to partying with.

And you only beat him by 300 damage!

[Jaggywaggy]

Cat sure you showed a parse and all but still...that party wasn't taking full advantage of the thief to be fair. This is not to say I think they'd outdamage rng, but it's a poor attempt to put down thfs.

With sam/rng it would've been far more effective for the party to do enpi/piercing arrow---> SA fast blade/wasp sting for a distortion skillchain, not some worthless scission or reverb skillchain with gust slash and the like. This parsing would be the equal of a parsing of ranger at lvl 55 without sidewinder used.

Also a sam/rng pre 20 is going to have no natural ranged acc advantage over a thief/anything at that lvl. So given the thief could've done more damage as well with bone+1 rings,powerbow+1, etc. The parser is showing a thief at average potienal if that. Ranged attacks is not expected from thieves but an unexpected bonus, but a distortion SC ended with SA+ws should definitely happen. And unless your thf was the god of gimp, I don't see how it's possible to set a 0 distortion after a 100+ SA+WS. What's in dunes at that lvl, crabs and pugs weak to ice, and gobs only weak to light, but sure as hell don't have any resistances to any elements.

And why bother with parsers of pre 20 anyway, who really cares. ANY balanced party can easily ace the dunes in a few hours given the people aren't all first timers through the dunes. Heck for the sake of arguement lets say bard was the best DD 10-20, I doubt anyone would care still as anything can be a good DD in dunes when decently equipped.

Seeing as how my thf is currently 55, it's too late to matter for me anyway. However as soon as I get some jobs up more so I can sell old equips and make room i'll be raising that rng/nin from 27 again to maybe as high as 40 for BCNMs. And what a worthless arguement this was, because the super amazing rangers we are speaking of are the ones getting too much hate and dying and/or causing the mages to spam cures. In the 28-30 range I'll be looking for a thief to keep the mobs from looking in my direction for half the battle, as well as set major SCs for.

Cat I can't tell if it's just because of the arguement with dan or some other reason...But I have the impression you have something against thfs . And if this is the case, you really shouldn't for reasons I previously mentioned. Thfs let the rng go harder and right from the 'start' of the fight, and rng does ideal SCs with thief and lets the thief fill a more importent role in ending the battles quickly. I don't understand the hate coming from people of two jobs at all.

I'd expect this kind of pride in drk vs thf, rng vs mnk, but not thf vs rng whom makes one of the greatest teams in standard parties.

[poweryoga]

So I guess dan's not gonna take up rugal's offer then...

selective reading at its finest.

again.

and again.

and again.

Why not talk about the war of 1812 while you're on the way to off-topic?

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by poweryoga
So I guess dan's not gonna take up rugal's offer then...

Thanks for speaking for me. I didn't accept or decline it yet. Would you prefer that I say, "Yes, I'll do it, but it'll have to wait indefinitely"? Right now, the only time I can play is on weekdays at work (on a connection with 1000+ms lag, so partying is out) or on the weekends, and I have other things planned for the weekends coming up.

Why not talk about the war of 1812 while you're on the way to off-topic?

I'm sorry, is analyzing a THF damage log not on-topic? What is the topic, exactly?

[Cat]

I never said I parsed the Distortion chain that parse is only our last 6 fights. We stopped chaining. at 20 there are still IT pugils and VT pugils and yes the thf tricked for 50 dmg on them sometimes.

[imac2much]

Even though I wasn't mentioned in this, I'd just like to state that I have nothing against THF. I don't think cayne does either, since he played a THF to high levels, but I'm not Cayne. Anyway, THF are great jobs, and complement RNG nicely: this I will not deny. However, the best parties will always be multi-RNG PT (I know this is off topic, and no one argues with this, but just want to state that again).

Anyway, I also agree that 15-20 doesn't matter... Dan, I'm not saying "omg only high lvl matter noob" or anything so don't misinterpret, but jaggy is right that any competent PT can get all those 5 levels in one sitting. I did it. It's not hard.

But Jaggy, about your RNG comment: I spammed ranged attacks a lot but hardly ever got hit. With a good tank, you can shoot near-constantly; when you get aggro, utsu recast for free 6 absorbs, by this time tank will have voke and cure (for pld) or enfeeble (for ninja) ready. I only used barrage and WS's when monster was about to die anyway. Trust me, with a good tank, you can get away with a lot :p

I think a lot of this depends on the PT as well. In a low damage PT, maybe the THF has enough time to get off 2 SATAVB per fight, this will significantly increase their dmg. However, in a competent PT (especially with at least 1 RNG), fights will never last long enough for THF to get off 2 SATAVB. Usually they will get 1 SATA and 1 SATAVB, or for pre-30, 1 SA and 1 SAFB/combo. I'm still unclear as to how this makes them better than RNG, when a THF SA doesn't do considerably more than 1 ranged attack... at most it does 2x the dmg of 1 ranged attack? That's being generous I think. Note also, once again, RNG uses the most damaging weapon while THF uses one of the weakest, and RNG will naturally have more accuracy and have more +acc gear. If no one can really explain just HOW THF can be more outdamaging than RNG, other than "that's how it seems to me", I believe there is more theoretical proof in a RNG's favor.

Anyway Dan, if you are just saying YOUR THF managed to do more damage in parsings than YOUR RNG at similar leves, this does not mean that THF is most damaging DD from 15-45, since like I said it really does depend on what you had for your PT configuration and overall PT skill/strategy for the respective jobs. In 1 PT with all other things equal, if a PT is made of 5 people and need only 1 more DD, who should they pick? THF or RNG? This is the question we're debating aren't we? For pure DD purposes (forget about hate management of THF, since pre 30 that's out of the question anyway), which job would be better? Assume the tank and mages are smart and competent, and you are fighting IT+ for 180-200 base xp. How exactly will a THF (without ranged) outdamage a RNG?

I already provided my arguments and facts + speculation as to why RNG will outdamage THF. If there is any counterargument, I'd love to hear it. If not, so be it, and we'll have to save it for a good parsing later.