Did the update do anything for teh pups

[Raitox]

Re: Did the update do anything for teh pups

God I hate blanket comments like that - 95 times out of a hundred they are purely influenced by someone who heard is once maybe on a forums somewhere.
Why is pup not worth inviting? Mage frame gets virtually inexhaustable mana. Rng frame does some sweet damage, melee frame can do some neat stuff. How come a friend of mine was on equal standing with other well equipped melee, forcing the tank to rip hate back off his automaton several times?
I guess drg, pld, blm, sam, drk and smn are not worth inviting in your world either. Perhaps when you get a job higher than 40, according to your profile, you can make these blanket statements.

My profile hasn't been updated in a while (49 SAM and Rank 5.. :O!!!). And how come, a good friend of mine on his WAR out parses every PUP he plays with? You simply assume that, because I have not reached a certain/level rank or a statement I say I am automatically someone who doesn't give jobs a chance. I do invite DRG's, PLD's, BLM's, DRK's and SMN's, and what the fuck? I AM a samurai. My other friend, Spaarky has burned with PUP's before... the WAR/NIN's, MNK's, and NIN's outparsed the PUP's by a large amount. Sure you get a nice toy to play with. But PUP's are still crap DD, end of story

[Sabaron]

Re: Did the update do anything for teh pups

As I mentioned previously, a PUP is not a DD. They're a versatile job. The sacrifice of damage allows them to take advantage of useful abilities and powers not given to others. That notwithstanding, the PUP class has it's share of problems and it's not really all that useful, but it can be a successful addition to a party. DD's aren't the ultimate class (except apparently in certain parts of ToAU). I don't particularly enjoy being in bland Burn parties, and I doubt I will ever join one. It takes so much away from the game to just grind like a fool. You get locked into a particular strategy and then when called upon to perform in a competent manner in some other type of party, you fold like a greasy paper plate.

Just because you've got Rank 5 doesn't mean you're good. Just because you're level 49 doesn't mean you're good. Your worth as a player is determined by your competency as any fool can ride parties to very high levels and people will still complain that they can't play correctly. Just listen to the 60-75 crowd as they find parties with players who are astonishingly incompetent. I'm not saying that you are incompetent, but I also did not elude to the fact that your rank/level had anything to do with your ability to play the game (I realize that these comments were made by others, I'm just saying--I didn't do it. ^^).

[Raitox]

Re: Did the update do anything for teh pups

A. I never said Rank 5 meant I was good. I said that because I was told I shouldn't be listened to or some other crap because I wasn't.

B. Does being called a good SAM in 15 of my pts make me incompetent?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Did the update do anything for teh pups

B. Does being called a good SAM in 15 of my pts make me incompetent?

No; but saying PUP's aren't worth inviting because you do not know how to make best use of them does make you incompetent.

I've seen a PUP out DD'ed a power-mad BLM gulping juice after juice and a WAR/NIN with great accuracy for her level in Lv.33-ish party once. (I was that power-mad BLM.) I don't know how well they do before or after those levels, but PUP had great potential even before the latest update.

And, yes, I parsed that party. I was the number two DD, just behind the PUP + puppet combo.

Now, add their versitility to their DD potential, and you have one heck of a job in front of you--if you don't blind yourself with ignorance.

It's a great pity I do not see PUP's more often.

[Kirsteena]

Re: Did the update do anything for teh pups

I wrote the sam thing, then checked your profile. Was too lazy to change it.

Blanket statements are what we hate. Yeah your friend had a party with a pup. Did you? Because you are just hammering home what we said about making statements with nothing to back it up. Yes pup isn't brilliant, SE shafted them in the DD department. But what do you get in return? Melee frame, a shield bashing, flash casting monster - mage frame, a heck of a lot of spells (including cure IV on the master - yes, please), plus good debuffs - rng frame, well I haven't seen the ranged attack frame miss much tbh. Pup can be extremely versatile and SE are finally starting to listen to people and improve it slowly. I have high hopes that eventually pup will have h2h cap lifted higher, and access to better weapons.

I like pup, and I sure as hell will invite one when one is lfp. But then I like drg too.

[Balfree]

Re: Did the update do anything for teh pups

How about them PUP tanks in Crawlers nest? I had pretty good experiences with 2 of those. Their 'maton just blasts Cures at him like a mad man and gets no hate for it. Sure, i had to hold back a bit on my damage dealing or i'd grab hate, but you do that all the time anyway.

[Grandsummoner_Kairos]

Re: Did the update do anything for teh pups

crawlers nest was funny for me as pup, nothing can hit you at that level. to much evasion. Anyway the reasons players don't know hoe good pup is because it was essentially a job added without 2/3rd's of its abilities/spells. WIthe SE finally adding in the final attachments, pup gets a lot better. I have 29 attachments and almost done with all released thus far. The higher level attachments work by negating the enemy's advantage weather it is in attack, defense, or evasion. If you're parsing a pup in a party you must add all the damage they do from themselves, the automoton, and the self skillchains done by the pup. The job is weak in spike damage but very good at doing large amounts of damage over the corse of a battle and surviving the battle.

Also as usual your sister's cousin's friend's party that was parsed does not give you the personal experience of having partied with a pup and parsed it. I parsed all my parties all the way up to 65 and never once in that time did i fall behind 2nd rank DD in the party, most of them with 4 DD's.

[eva00r]

Re: Did the update do anything for teh pups

PUP is definitely good job until lv 65. After that PUP's awesomeness drops dramatically. YES, DRAMATICALLY. This needs a fix, hope to see it at the end of the year. (yes according to the SQEN interview - a major blu/pup/cor adjustment this x'mas)

Why ?
1) Incredible low accuracy

At lv 60 - MNK gets his H2H skill to 200; well PUP gets that at lv 65.
At lv 75 - MNK's H2H = 276 while PUP's = 225 ...
It's 51 accuracy and attack difference. - lol - says 5x scorpion harness

2) Limited numbers of magic

The best spells that PUP can cast is Water 3 or Aero 3, based on your merit points. They are not even as good as Lv 70 RDM's spells.

3) The lack of new frames or new WS

Melee and Range PUPs need totally new WSs. At least to be able to do Lv 3 self skillchain with their masters. Well, this could possibly obtained by new frames or new merits. I don't know.

PUPs aren't bad but one of my friend who is PUP75 told me that he was the leecher of the world around lv 70 because of those 3 reasons above. He loves to play PUP but seriously, PUP needs some more adjustment.

The real reasons that make PUP both good and bad are the versatility and complexity itself. Why ? Because people still don't know what's PUP for and will never know until they play PUP lol. The attachments are ... well ... too complex stuff to the other people in other jobs to understand.

[Sabaron]

Re: Did the update do anything for teh pups

I think a Level 3 Self-Skillchain would be going just a tad bit overboard. Maybe a liitle flirt with Level 2 (just one kind depending on which frame you use) or a little bit more variety in Level 1 chains, but I don't really see PUP dishing out Light/Dark solo.

The attachments are not too complex for others to understand. They're the equivalent of selectable Job Traits/Abilities which pretty much everyone understands. The only difference is that PUP gets a lot more JT/JA but can only choose a limited set of 16--which is, granted, a lot, but certainly not incomprehensible. The attachments are clearly marked and widely available on the Internet. Besides, it's the PUP who is supposed to know how best to make use of the parts in whatever role he plays in PT. The party-maker need only know that the PUP could fit a given role.

[EDIT: Add]

The inherent versatility of the Puppetmaster and the fact that he's undergone such large changes in his abilities over the last couple of updates means that it is unlikely that anyone knows exactly what PUP is capable of since PUPs are bound to be missing an attachment or two and there's nearly no data collection currently available. Therefore, the current climate wrt PUP should be Invite and see.

[Grandsummoner_Kairos]

Re: Did the update do anything for teh pups

I don't think self light and dark are too out of the question since blue mage can do this every 2 minutes. Its something to think about, but i'm hoping they will give us something completely different from what other jobs in the game currently have.

[Sabaron]

Re: Did the update do anything for teh pups

I wasn't aware that BLU could do that... I suppose it's not out of the question then. I haven't actually looked at a BLU Skillchain Chart, despite the fact that I'm levelling BLU, as I'm not powerful enough yet to have Chain Affinity.

How about a "Concerted Attack" wherein the Puppetmaster and Automaton attack simultaneously creating a single "attack" that combines the Puppetmaster's damage with the automatons? To be "teh roxors" it would work like Sneak Attack and activating the ability causes the automaton to do what the PUP does--if PUP attacks normally, maton attacks normally; if PUP WS's, maton WS's. Now since the damage is combined, if a Weaponskill is the move, instead of a "self-chain" you can get a Di-elemental "Weaponskill" like the one's used to close Light/Dark. Of course implementation seems, as I look over the skillchain chart, to be a bit complicated....

[Grandsummoner_Kairos]

Re: Did the update do anything for teh pups

Really after they add the last tierIV attachments, all i think pup needs is new weaponskills that are better than the ones we currently have and cannot be gained with a sub, because the ones we have now went out of style at about 40 and we still have the same tired weaponskills at 70 =/

[tdh]

Re: Did the update do anything for teh pups

I started leveling PUP as a means to farm Beastman Seals, and ended up soloing to Lv.17. I've only ever partied with a PUP once, and that was at Lv.28~30. I was Blink tanking a party with 2 BLUs, PUP, COR, and WHM. BLUs kept the mobs Stun'd so much, I had no problems keeping hate, and the PUP and Automaton just blasted away. EXP flowed in.

Last time I touched PUP, was BEFORE the 1st set of added attachments. A number of them were 500k+, so I wasn't about to spend close to 2M on a job I was just toying with and had no interest in really getting serious with.

Now I won't go as far as Raitox and say that PUPs are crap, and they'll never be in my party, but I will say if I see a PUP, WAR, & MNK seeking.... that poor little PUP will continue to seek. (BTW Raitox, if you had explained why you would not invite a PUP with any sort of tact, you could have avoided a few attacks. Blanket statements = bad. Opinions = tolerated.)

I've only partially seen what a PUP can do at Lv.50. I've seen some pretty decent Fire IIs from the Frame, but 5dmg a fist from the PUP was sad. PUP really needs an Attack Bonus at some point, and an increase in H2H Skill. Correct me if I'm wrong, but PUP has a C- in H2H? Even us RDMs have B's in Sword & Dagger all the while not meleeing in 90% of our career.

I have no problem with the Light/Dark options for PUP, but I don't think it should be "solo." Allow PUP and their Frame to open/close Light/Dark. For example something like Wheeling Thrust > Howling Fist > PUP ~NEW~ WS to close for Light, or even reverse it and open for Light. Heck, even making them wait until Lv.71 wouldn't bother me. BLU has to wait until they have Savage Blade to do solo Light, and PUP officially can't do ANY WS Quest. So give them a quest so their Frame can learn a new WS. Actually, give them two. One for the Melee Frame, and one for the RNG Frame.

[Sabaron]

Re: Did the update do anything for teh pups

Well, the idea of the "Concerted Attack" was to allow PUP to combine maton and master damage together to make them viable Light/Dark SC closers. PUP can perform very strongly long before 50th level, but it is highly dependent upon the PUP's budget. PUP has arguably the most expensive "equipment" of any of the classes. You can't sell any of it back; you can't craft it without guild contract key items, and some of it only comes from high level farming. I would say, next time you see the PUP/WAR/MNK seeking thing... Ask the PUP if what tier of attachments he's using and which frame--checking for HQ gear on the PUP himself should also be an indication of wealth...

To add further depth to "Concerted Attack", in addition to combining the WS damage together to boost the closing damage, the hate from the burst of damage could be divided evenly between the master and the maton allowing the tank to more easily keep hate off the pair.

[tdh]

Re: Did the update do anything for teh pups

To add further depth to "Concerted Attack", in addition to combining the WS damage together to boost the closing damage, the hate from the burst of damage could be divided evenly between the master and the maton allowing the tank to more easily keep hate off the pair.

Sorry Sabaron, I was sitting her thinking, "What the hell is he talking about with this 'Concerted Attack' mess?" I never saw your post. I'm at work, so it took me like half an hour to actually finish my post, so yours wasn't up when I started.

Now that I've had a chance to read what you suggested, it's not a bad idea, but I like my idea better. lol Your isn't a bad idea, but I think mine helps PUP slightly more.

With a 3 person Lv.3 Skillchain, the effect recieves a modifier. So it allows the Frame to close for some pretty decent numbers, and would encourage people to invite a PUP. What ever it was, it would have to compete with the other Lv.3 Skillchain closers. If we just combined PUP & Frame WS, odds are they're not going to close 800~1k+ dmg for a possible big Light/Dark effect so why invite them over a DRK, THF, or SAM? (When I was in the Lv.3 Skillchain range my favorite Skillchain setup was WAR and DRK/THF. If a job couldn't close Lv.3 for 800~1kdmg it seemed silly to even do a Lv.3 Skillchain.)

My hopes are that giving PUPs a chance to shine in an instance like this will make them more desirable. Give them more Skillchain options gives them more parties, and are their bread and butter. I could be wrong, but I just don't see PUP shining in a TP Burn, so parties that Skillchain are key to them.