Hello Fellow PLD

[ShepardG]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

Idle gear I wear when Engaged to a Mob @ 75 PLD (assume haste spell, double march, possibly ballad's if we have the bard to spare)
(i do not have this gear, but this is what I would go for if I did, if pld is your main job, assume 8/8 sword merits)

Main: Joyeuse,Hauteclaire,New magian sword OAT
Sub: Terror or koenig shield (would have both as beast killer trait, vs. -10% dmg taken in campaign are both too good not too)
Ranged/Ammo: Situationally depending Lamia Kaman +1, or NQ, or Goblin Cracker, or Bibiki Sea shell
Head: Wal-mart and or askar head, Assjalhalhlsamar, B-mask
Neck: PCC, Fortitude Torque, Ancient Torque
Lear: Suppanomimi or hollow/ethreal
Rear: Brutal earring (brutal always goes on the right ear, I will kill you otherwise)
Body: Ares's body, Haubergeon +1, that new one from sandworm with like +7vit,chr Acc+13 magic dmg taken -5%
Hands: Homam, Dusk if you don't have homam
Lring: Toreador's,woodsman,something with acc that dosen't have -def
Rring: Rajas Ring, (Rajas also always goes on the Right, again, I will kill you if you do it wrong)
Back: Cerb mantle, Chuch mantle, forager's mantle
Waist: V. Belt, Swift Belt, anything with haste
Legs: Homam, Askar isn't bad, A shanto accension legs with haste and acc
Feet: Homam, Aurum, Dusk, AF +1 aren't bad actually either

Lots of focus on haste and Accuracy. Pretty DDish. Endgame pld's Defense dosen't come from VIT, dosen't come to much from DEF based gear (koenig set) dosen't come from Physical/Magical Damage mitigation.

Most Endgame Pld Defense comes from shadows.

Now when you get into situations where you are subbing war, for dynamis/Einherjar, or /RDM for JOL, Fomor Kings, that's where you focus on DEF builds, and phys/magi reduction builds.

If you want to DD on pld, you need an Excal otherwise your minimal dmg is just there to help keep your hate high when losing enmity due to shadow loss.

There are many many ways this mentality can translate downward towards your level (60ish) but I PERSONALLY, would focus on ACC, Enmity, DEF, in that order. Haste dosen't become useful until you can get above 10-14% in my personal opinion, because you don't have that additional double march, haste, often times in EXP parties.

To caveat on this wall 'o' text:

-I Cheat cure for Enmity @ 75(swapping in +HP gear, before a spell goes off, so that I always heal myself for the Enmity)
-I swap in haste/fastcast gear for all magic spells to start the cast, and then midway, before the spell fires off, and takes effect I swap in Enmity
-for NI it's all haste and fast cast, but for Ichi, I start in my fastcast set, and around 30% I swap in my Shield skill set, as often times you'll finish the spell through a hit, if you shield procs.
-I have a Kiting set, (for kirin mainly) that Is mainly Defense, -Magic dmg taken, Movement speed.

I don't know if this helps the orignial poster, Its basically the standard way endgame pld's work alot of the times, but by no means is it the only way.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

Happens in practice--when the PLD puts away the shield and claims it's better to DD and so equips a Great Sword.

Will never happen in practice, unless you happen to just have a bad Paladin

Any Paladin who thinks that a Great Sword is worthwhile in exp parties more than likely has a few screws loose.

I do agree a hybrid or DD PLD can generate more enmity than a defensive one, but when there's HP missing and the MP to cure, a PLD curing would generate more enmity than swinging a sword.

Want more enmity? Cure more. When you've cured as much as MP recovery or HP missing allows, that's when the damage output start to make a real difference for maximum enmity generation.

NOBODY IS ARGUING AGAINST THIS.

What those sane among us are saying is that both proper damage output and curing are among elements required of a good Paladin. The rest of us just happen to believe that something like curing should be a given, like wearing a freaking Shield.

End-game a PLD shouldn't even be in a meripo in the first place,

Yeah! Those dang lazy Paladins should learn to get their buffer and crap like Chivalry and Fealty on their own time!

Also, you can tell me the theory of VIT/DEF is old and outdated, however if you possess falsifiable evidence that completely disproves it, then I'm all ears(eyes). Until then, your theory is just as good as mine.

Because burden of proof is totally not on the guy making the claim. Leave all that bothersome testing and proving a negative for some other guy to worry about, and when he comes back with data that shows that he was right about what he said about the stats in question, just ignore it and say he's wrong anyway. It'd get you just about as far as you're getting now, anyway.

[Armando]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

The analysis was for how much enmity you can gain (in a short time period) under the condition that someone in the party is missing some HP.

Then it was somewhat of a red herring. A DD PLD will generate more hate from the start through damage, so he may not need to Cure in situations where a turtle would.

There's also the fact that a DD PLD can average 200-250 on their Vorpals and will have 100 TP much more often than a turtle. Using a WS is even faster than Curing.

Keep in mind the reverse of your words is just as true

Yes, but MP is not infinite and curing will not kill a mob.

No, the real road block to continuing to function isn't the PLD's MP, but the healers' MP (or TP, for DNC).

Here's an somewhat absurd situations to illustrate a point: "0 MP on the PLD, 800 MP on the WHM." Pull? Of course.

Of course you'll pull, but at this point every turtle will falter because they rely on their limited MP. Either the DDs will have to hold back a lot or the healers are going to lose MP much faster when the mob starts smacking squishy DDs.

Shield damage reduction equation :: Final Fantasy XI :: ZAM

I saw that thread back when it was first posted, but it says absolutely nothing about test conditions, sample sizes, testing methods, and most importantly the math. His results don't match what I got in my shield testing thread. The only reason I never descredited it openly is because I never found someone to help me do an obviously conclusive test (e.g. Serket Shield vs Aspis damage reductions.)

[cidbahamut]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

Will never happen in practice, unless you happen to just have a bad Paladin, in which case, neither turtling nor hybrid setup would save you, anyway.

Which would be why they end up on my list of people I don't want to party with again. I'm not saying DD style is any worse or better at tanking. I just prefer a Paladin who can hold still hold hate while taking less damage because it makes my job as healer a lot less stressful.

Hybrid Paladins do this. Between the extra damage generation and the mob just plain dying faster, they can even do this better than full-on turtles, in fact. That's kinda the whole point of gearing up that way in the first place.

The 'mob dying faster = less healing' argument has always struck me as a load of bullshit, because in practice all it means is faster pulls. When the tank can survive multiple hits without me there to clear his intestines off the floor it means I can actually sit down and rest a few ticks during battle instead of riding the ragged edge of disaster. What usually happens with a tank that can't take a hit is that I'm on my feet constantly because if I leave them alone for the 20 seconds it takes to grab that first tick they will be face down in the dirt along with the rest of the party. This means I'm constantly running on empty because the puller continues running off to grab fresh mobs until I either yell at them to let me grab mp, or the party wipes because I ran out of mp propping up the tank.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

I don't know about you, Cid, but if I had to heal for a party, I'd much prefer a(n intelligent!) non-turtling Paladin over a turtle. I know that the non-turtle will hold hate better, thus easing some of my worry as well as taxing my own resources less, and ultimately lead to a more productive party in general.

[Mageta]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

Well I feel I hold hate well as long as a DD doesn't go crazy and do something stupid. I'm actually able to hold hate through a satavb>penta thrust. Note the Sata is going off onto the drg. I was able to voke and get the mob back if it was in need.

But one thing I'm concerned with is the rdm healing me said I needed to heal more often.... I definately thought I was doing the majority of the heals on myself and even the melee DD from pulls or random hate loss. This with only 150ish mp. But I had about 8mp/tick refresh going on.

Am I missing something? Am I supposed to be totally responsible for my own health (exception on emergencies)? I felt I held my own and I definately was not a sponge. The rdm was casting ice spikes stoneskin and phalanx while I was tanking.....

Any info is greatly appreciated. Thanks for the discussion so far it has been really interesting. I've learned a lot.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

Well I feel I hold hate well as long as a DD doesn't go crazy and do something stupid. I'm actually able to hold hate through a satavb>penta thrust. Note the Sata is going off onto the drg. I was able to voke and get the mob back if it was in need.

But one thing I'm concerned with is the rdm healing me said I needed to heal more often.... I definately thought I was doing the majority of the heals on myself and even the melee DD from pulls or random hate loss. This with only 150ish mp. But I had about 8mp/tick refresh going on.

Am I missing something? Am I supposed to be totally responsible for my own health (exception on emergencies)? I felt I held my own and I definately was not a sponge. The rdm was casting ice spikes stoneskin and phalanx while I was tanking.....

Any info is greatly appreciated. Thanks for the discussion so far it has been really interesting. I've learned a lot.

Your Red Mage is a flaming idiot if he's wasting MP on Ice Spikes and Phalanx while you're tanking. Stoneskin is acceptable because shit happens and sometimes people other than the tank get whacked. If he's getting hit often enough that Ice Spikes and Phalanx are being useful then something has gone horribly wrong.

[Mhurron]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

Am I missing something? Am I supposed to be totally responsible for my own health (exception on emergencies)?

No, but most healers suck giant donkey balls and throw little fits of not curing PLD because they wanted a NIN so they could take a nap while getting EXP. They then turn around and bitch when the PLD runs out of MP and has to rest and somehow use this as proof that PLD sucks as a tank.

[Satori]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

I"m only a low lvl pld 41 at the moment.
This topic has been very helpful but very confusing at the same time.
There's many of you here that I value many of you input in various discussions as I see alot of you as very good knowledgeable players.

As I bst I swap gear like there's no tomorrow. Sorry to hijack the thread but I have a question.

With both sides of the discussion making good points all round. What is the best way I should be playing my Pld and gearing him?
At 41 I carry a Vit set for getting beat upon and swich in dd style items for ws then I switch back after my ws has been performed. sometimes I stay in my ws gear for a few hits then once my hp has a dent in it I "turtle up" once more.

I know at 41 there's not alot gear-wise for me. But I'd like to know what direction to head in and hopefully make the most of my character and not be pushed into a box of single styled tanking. I'd like to be adaptable as possible if that is at all possible.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

Never gear for VIT. Like Armando said earlier, it takes 4 points of VIT to reduce the mob's base damage by 1, so it's never worthwhile to invest in it, since we only have it in such small amounts. VIT is very much a last resort stat, use it over other junk stats if there's nothing else you can fill the slot with (and you're always going to be able to fill the slot with something better). Even when turtling up, what you really want is Defense, and even that stops being useful after a certain point.

As far as actual gear, this guide is probably missing one or two really good things that were added over the last few updates, but generally it should still serve you very well, even if you only regard it as a guideline: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/pal...ent-guide.html I know it at least served me well enough, at any rate.

[Tipsy]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

If you honestly require a DD setup to hold hate then you shouldn't be playing PLD. If it's just personal preference, then please stop trying to pass it as a fact, I can assure you it's just an opinion.

All you're doing is generating a very small amount of enmity more, at the cost of taking more damage. Yes, you're killing the mob faster, but a very very small amount faster. Not an amount that is totally ground breaking, and that 5 seconds less of a fight warrants any type of less healing.

Let it be known, I do agree with having a PCC/Joyeuse in some situations, as Chivalry and Atonement make things easier for MP, but still that's a 20 minute recast.

[Armando]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

If you honestly require a DD setup to hold hate then you shouldn't be playing PLD

You miss the point entirely. Whether you need to or not is irrelevant. If it works better it's your obligation to do it for the sake of the party.

All you're doing is generating a very small amount of enmity more

Not sure how you would know, having never tried it.

Also, you can tell me the theory of VIT/DEF is old and outdated, however if you possess falsifiable evidence that completely disproves it, then I'm all ears(eyes). Until then, your theory is just as good as mine.

Missed this.

Read section I. Mobs use the same formula with different PDIF. DDs don't gear for STR unless they have nothing else to boost; VIT is the same.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

This may the most importance difference in our view points:

Yes, but MP is not infinite and curing will not kill a mob.

DDs make the kill. If I'm really looking for damage from a PLD, I'd replaced the PLD with a DD.

Once again, a PLD earns a slot in the party by conserving and amplifying the recovery resources; everything else is a bonus. When recovery can be completely handled without the help of a tank to mitigate the damage taken by the party members, the PLD is booted.

A DD PLD will generate more hate from the start through damage, so he may not need to Cure in situations where a turtle would.

If the the tank is a PLD/WAR, he'd pretty much have HP to cure right from the start or nearly so.

I think we're both aware of how much enmity damage output can generate, and we both agree it is helpful that a PLD does damage when looking at enmity generation, on top over everything else a PLD can do. But, if a PLD wants get ahead on the enmity generation compared to DDs, the obvious answer is Provoke, Flash, and Cure before swing. At least, looking at the enmity formula tells me so.

WS is nice, but it's not really a replacement for Cure, since the HP to cure is much more available than the TP to WS with. Anyway, I can modify my statement to: Provoke > Flash > WS (when have TP) > Cure > swing. Still, I still don't see how swinging can get ahead of curing, even with WS rates factored in.



* * *

I think I've said this in another thread before; for exp'ing, the PLD player's ability is more important than the choice of tanking in either defensive or DD gear. You'd make a better tank just by keep trying things to have the monsters stay facing you.

The DD gear isn't as important as some of the posters made it out to be, though I do encourage every PLD leveling up to carry them. If I may paraphrase Armando, you want to do the best you can for your party, and in the right situations switching in DD gears can do that. (He would in just about every situation you'd want to be between hybrid and full-DD, while I'm more conservative and say full defense still can be good, I think.)


* * *


For Lv.10~40 PLDs (and a bit higher, if no RDM in party), these will help you more than just about anything else:

Pineapple Juice
Melon Juice.

Level cooking. Save room in inventory for them. Make them out on the field.


* * *


Off-topic musing:

Years ago, when I first started seeing DD/NIN (other than WAR/NIN) in parties, I thought it was incredibly weird. The idea that we use less than two full-fledged healers in party to keep the front line alive, and instead bounce critter off of Utsusemi: Ichi to save MP as early as Lv.30 seemed so strange.

A few parties of that, though, showed me that it worked, and worked really well, and I was sold.

Then, the PLD/NIN started to become wide spread. As a low level PLD, I couldn't comprehend how to function without Provoke, but at least I could shrug it off as some sort of weird endgame thing. In the mean while, the DD PLD thing was all the rage, so I carried both DD and defense gear and fiddled endlessly every party from level 10-something and up. (Yes, I had a "DD set" at level 10-something I could macro into. lol.) Think I even spent two days camping an NM for a Lv.19 DD sword.

It was during this time the power of cure was burned into my brain--it's more available and more reliable than just about anything else.

At Lv.75 but in the pre-Kaeko era, I read all the half-or-less correct theories, and gamely put PLD/NIN to practice--and I sucked. Flash and damage output just didn't didn't make me tank for merit critters, and it was easy to lose critters to DD for bigger things in defensive gear on PLD/NIN.

Then, Kaeko started posting how he is figuring out enmity, and it was completely differently from what he used to think it was. With help from his posts and with practice and gear upgrades, I started doing better and better on PLD/NIN. He published the Cure and damage enmity formula just a bit after I re-discovered my most reliable tool: Cure.

Not sure if I really have a point, besides that I tend to be skeptical of changes in practices until it's proven to me that it works (better). lol.


Anyway, today, I can easily say that I'm a "Cure-based" PLD rather than "defense" or "DD" or "hybrid" PLD.

Even with Atonement, multiple revamps to shield, /NIN, and 4/5 Homam, Cure III is the center piece of my tanking on PLD. (Of course, I wouldn't know how to function without Utusemi, shield, and Flash, but my biggest source of enmity is Cure III.)


* * *


This is a LONG ways off for the OP and the low level PLD who chimed in, but here's a little taste of endgame tanking: Proto-Ultima, version last Saturday.

(Note: We forgot to teach the PLD2 how to tank Proto-Ultima. Can consider him backup tank (or cannon fodder) instead of co-tank. Both PLD1 and myself had previous Proto-Ultima tanking experience.)

There's no question that damage output is a part of the endgame PLD's arsenal now, and you can tell who's was out to do damage from the food choices, and the numbers show that PLD1 was the better DD PLD than I was.

PLD1: Sole Sushi
Itazura: Pescatora
PLD2: Dorado Sushi

Damage Summary
Player_______________Total_Dmg___Damage_%___Melee_Dmg___Range_Dmg___Abil._Dmg__WSkill_Dmg___Spell_Dmg__Other_Dmg
PLD1______________________5975____11.26_%________2645___________0__________62________3268___________0__________0
Itazura___________________4962_____9.35_%________2037___________0__________64________2824___________0_________37
PLD2______________________4374_____8.24_%________1816___________0__________65________2493___________0__________0

Melee Damage
Player____________Melee_Dmg___Melee_%___Hit/Miss___M.Acc_%__M.Low/Hi____M.Avg__#Crit__C.Low/Hi___C.Avg_____Crit%
PLD1___________________2645___44.27_%____390/467___45.51_%______0/23_____4.03_____34______0/79___35.65____8.72_%
Itazura________________2037___41.05_%____350/365___48.95_%______0/41_____3.34_____34______0/58___28.82____9.71_%
PLD2___________________1816___41.52_%____270/199___57.57_%______0/24_____3.53_____29______0/52___33.31___10.74_%


Weaponskill Damage
Player_________________WSkill_Dmg___WSkill_%__Hit/Miss___WS.Acc_%___WS.Low/Hi___WS.Avg
PLD1_________________________3268____54.69_%_______7/0___100.00_%_____338/525___466.86
_-_Atonement_________________3268___100.00_%_______7/0___100.00_%_____338/525___466.86
Itazura______________________2824____56.91_%_______6/0___100.00_%_____345/508___470.67
_-_Atonement_________________2824___100.00_%_______6/0___100.00_%_____345/508___470.67
PLD2_________________________2493____57.00_%_______8/0___100.00_%_______0/509___311.63
_-_Atonement_________________2493___100.00_%_______7/0___100.00_%______77/509___356.14
_-_Savage_Blade_________________0_____0.00_%_______1/0___100.00_%_________0/0_____0.00



Yet, as much as many endgame PLDs rave about doing damage as the biggest source of enmity, the reality is that it's not a good predictor of tanking ability by itself. A parser makes it easy to guess who was tanking more:

Active Defenses
Player_____________Shadow__Shadow_%___Anticipate__Anticipate_%___Retaliations__Retaliation_%
PLD1___________________78___80.41_%____________0________0.00_%______________0_________0.00_%
Itazura_______________120___81.63_%____________0________0.00_%______________0_________0.00_%
PLD2___________________24___75.00_%____________0________0.00_%______________0_________0.00_%



Actually, I'm not all that awesome when it comes to Utusemi tanking; I get hit, a lot more often than I should. (Eating more Citadel Buster doesn't help, either, with the enmity reset--it's practically a CE wipe, too. Well, better I eat it than other people, though.)

Damage Recovery
Player___________Dmg_Taken___HP_Drained___HP_Cured___#Regen___#Regen_2___#Regen_3
Airius________________9148____________0______13801________0__________0__________0
Itazura______________15641____________0______20398________0__________0__________0
Scorn_________________8318____________0_______4999________0__________0__________0



So, how do I keep tanking? I cure. A lot.


Curing (Whm spells or equivalent)
Player___________Cured_(Sp)__Cured_(Ab)__C.1s__C.2s__C.3s__C.4s__C.5s__Curagas__Rg.1s__Rg.2s__Rg.3s
Airius________________8276___________0______0_____1_____0____28_____0________0______0______0______0
Itazura______________15145___________0______0____43____35____11_____0________0______0______0______0
Scorn_________________2109___________0______0_____0_____5_____4_____0________0______0______0______0



And, I try to be careful about getting the most out of each MP spent.

Average Curing (Whm spells or equivalent)
Player___________Avg_Cure_1___Avg_Cure_2___Avg_Cure_3___Avg_Cure_4___Avg_Cure_5___Avg_Curaga___Avg_Ability
Airius_________________0.00_______116.00_________0.00_______291.43_________0.00_________0.00__________0.00
Itazura________________0.00________97.09_______191.89_______386.73_________0.00_________0.00__________0.00
Scorn__________________0.00_________0.00_______171.20_______313.25_________0.00_________0.00__________0.00


* * *

PLD is an incredibly fun job in FFXI. Despite all the posts, I don't mean to tell people how to play it exactly, but sharing what I find works for me is a part of the joy I have for the job.

[Empedocles]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

I have a little story too.

I lvl'd PLD in the good ol' pre-CoP days.

I used an Earth Staff from Lv.51-55 on Kuftal Crabs..... lolololol. (Just a random thing, this is before the Shield adjustments that meant you actually blocked with your fricken shield. Back then they were few and far between, nothing to be relied on whatsoever.)

Speaking as one who had absolutely f-all in terms of damage during those levels, then changing back to Sword + Shield and actually hitting the mobs for more than single-digits, I will say this:

Most people have no idea how much even a tiny amount of extra damage will do for your hate generation capabilities.

One thing I am misunderstanding here though.... why is there even discussion over DD vs Curing? It's easy enough to do both.

(Can someone post a 'Cool Story Bro' picture please? ^^")

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

Most people have no idea how much even a tiny amount of extra damage will do for your hate generation capabilities.

I would hope most people reading this thread can figure out exactly how much enmity of each type is generated for each point damage done by now. lol.

One thing I am misunderstanding here though.... why is there even discussion over DD vs Curing? It's easy enough to do both.

The issue is time.

The seconds you spend curing (or casting anything, really) are the time you're not doing damage. This is why Armando would recommend a PLD/WAR let his HP drop by ~400 or so and then drop a Cure IV on himself, to cure about the same amount of HP using less time than casting Cure III twice.

My way of looking at it, though, is that the longer you delay the cures, the faster you'll fall behind the DDs. Not to mention there's a higher chance of Cure IV getting interrupted compared to Cure III, and an interrupted Cure produces almost no enmity; it's a complete waste of time.

As PLD/NIN in Nyzul Isle and merit parties, I tried to go from Ni to Ni as much as possible to save on casting time, in order to gain improvement on the DD front. (Tanking harder things, I tended to go from Ichi to Ichi instead, saving Ni for bad situations as much as I can.)