Hello Fellow PLD

[Malacite]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

*shrug* It's easy to get praises in exp parties; the standards and expectations have never been all that high. I've gotten plenty--both while using defense and while using hybrid setups. Heck, even level sync'ed down in gears with only defense and a bit of HP, VIT, and enmity+ after sync, I got plenty of compliments.

And, at the higher levels, it's pretty easy to "rip hate off" of a PLD, good, bad, offense, defense, or otherwise; Meditate> Sekkanoki > Penta Thrust > Penta Thrust would usually do the trick, in my experience.

lv 53 PT in Wajaom, PLD (me) THF DRG BRD RDM COR. Only lost hate once which resulted in the DRG dieing and that was very early in the PT where the THF took way too long to SATA me. That DRG was spamming penta thrust but otherwise could not rip hate off me as I was hitting the mob pretty damn hard myself, along with flash & voke. Yeah I had SATA to help too but when you got a DRG dropping 800+ Penta's it's still pretty impressive.

Point is, even if you're not hitting for a whole lot of damage (though it freaking helps if you are) I've always found it far easier to get tabs on a mob when I can hit it consistently. If my accuracy takes any kind of noticeable dive things go sour.

While this is technically true (more or less) it's kind of a moot point. Taking damage is losing CE, but PLD don't have much CE in exp parties anyway. It would be better to say taking damage have only a small impact on enmity performance, and how much damage should a PLD take is merely an issue of resource management.

You're going to be taking hits regardless, so why not gear for DD and make the fight's go quicker?


The way I view things when I'm PLD is it's not my job to keep myself alive, that's the healer's. Mine is to make sure the mob isn't looking at anyone but me, and if I can, make it dead. :3

[cidbahamut]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

You're going to be taking hits regardless, so why not gear for DD and make the fight's go quicker?

Because then your mages hate you and you end up on their shit list for bleeding all over the floor.

[Malacite]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

Because then your mages hate you and you end up on their shit list for bleeding all over the floor.

I've yet to have that happen to me

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

lv 53 PT in Wajaom, PLD (me) THF DRG BRD RDM COR. Only lost hate once which resulted in the DRG dieing and that was very early in the PT where the THF took way too long to SATA me. That DRG was spamming penta thrust but otherwise could not rip hate off me as I was hitting the mob pretty damn hard myself, along with flash & voke. Yeah I had SATA to help too but when you got a DRG dropping 800+ Penta's it's still pretty impressive.

Your tanking ability doesn't count for much if there's a SATA. lol.

You're going to be taking hits regardless, so why not gear for DD and make the fight's go quicker?
[...]
The way I view things when I'm PLD is it's not my job to keep myself alive, that's the healer's. Mine is to make sure the mob isn't looking at anyone but me, and if I can, make it dead. :3

It's everyone's responsibility to help conserve the healers' MP (or TP if DNC), PLD included.

Same with tanking, really, since strong DDs can usually pry the monsters off of a tank w/out too much trouble. My personal preference is for the DDs to take a few hits on Usutsumi, then let the tank grab the monster back so Utsusemi timer can reset. That helps to conserving the healers' MP, by the way.

[Armando]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

You would need to do 193 damage in that same 2.5 seconds just to match the enmity output for a single Cure III--or, have to do even more damage, if the cure was cast with enmity+ gear on.

This is where your analysis went horribly wrong. You don't need to do 193 damage in the same 2.5 secs, you just need to do 193 damage throughout the course of the fight.

If you really, really believe that outputting damage beats curing for enmity in exp parties, don't cure at all.

That would only prove that a DD setup can't tank without curing, which misses the point completely. The point is that the more damage you do the less you need to Cure to keep the same hate. The less you need to Cure, the less likely you are to cause downtime. DD setups still Cure, but they do so less than turtle setups.

Defense figures in twice; shields' Defense improves the amount mitigation when shield blocking

I've actually never seen the proof of this. It might be true but I'd take it with a grain of salt.

D) The grind 1-75, I never equipped DD. Never needed to. Was never a point where I found my self at a complete wall in which I could not keep hate, thus I set my focus on taking as little damage as possible.

It's extremely rare for people to hit walls anyways. A DD will not "hit a wall" for not having a Haubergeon. But why give less performance than you can give?

Because then your mages hate you and you end up on their shit list for bleeding all over the floor.

False. Take the body slot for example: the difference between Gallant Surcoat and Haubergeon is 4 VIT and 2 Def. That's never killed anyone, since people will still invite Tarutaru PLDs.

[Tipsy]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

False. Take the body slot for example: the difference between Gallant Surcoat and Haubergeon is 4 VIT and 2 Def. That's never killed anyone, since people will still invite Tarutaru PLDs

And 20 evasion. Which is only around +6 skill? Still worth mentioning.

In the end, it's playstyles that suit your interests. For me, taking as least damage as possible, while maintaining constant hate is my job as a PLD; and the hate part does not require me to equip DD to pull some higher numbers. I did google Atonement and Chivalry and those are nice abilities (haven't been on PLD for ages), so I can see where ACC would come into play, or a Joyeuse. Don't forget though, the main part a DD PLD is useful in any sense of the word is pre75. But even without those pieces, those abilities are still readily available, just not as frequently. After the shield block update, getting TP is fairly simply. I would still choose the "turtle" setup, and perform just as well as any DD PLD out there (when it comes to holding hate).

Then again, when I leveled PLD we were still at The Boyahda Tree, where I remember holding hate to an 1800 damage magic burst.

[Armando]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

And 20 evasion

PLDs pretty much don't evade in EXP beyond the use of Flash. -Evasion can't hurt you when you can't get any worse at it.

I would still choose the "turtle" setup, and perform just as well as any DD PLD out there (when it comes to holding hate).

Turtle setup always holds hate worse; the only times a full turtle approach works better is when the party overhunts, which is always a very bad way to get EXP.

Also, missed this

The way I set up was to input as much VIT to lower the damage curve and then follow up with defense to bring my damage taken as close to the curve as possible,

This is not at all how damage mitigation works.

VIT is a last resort stat because it takes too much of it to do anything useful, meaning you can almost always find something better to put into that equipment slots (e.g. Acc rings instead of VIT rings.)

Defense is what really matters, but beyond a certain point it stops being useful.

[Tipsy]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

The way I was taught is VIT lowers the minimum amount you can get hit for, DEF brings your damage taken closer to that cap. With partial koenig/adaman and other misc. gear (ie, bibiki sea shell) it's not hard to get a decent amount of VIT gear, enough to notice large differences in damage taken.

And yes, beyond a certain point DEF becomes useless if you don't have the VIT to go a long with it.

[Armando]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

The way I was taught is VIT lowers the minimum amount you can get hit for, DEF brings your damage taken closer to that cap.
...
And yes, beyond a certain point DEF becomes useless if you don't have the VIT to go a long with it.

A myth as old as time. The two stats are independent and no amount of VIT will make make excessive Defense useful.

Both stats reduce minimum, average and maximum damage. VIT does it by dropping the mob's DMG, which is why it's not very useful. Mob DMG is high, and it takes 4 VIT points to cause a drop. Wasting a ring slot to bring a mob from 70 DMG to 69 is not nearly as productive as equipping an Accuracy ring and increasing your hit rate by 2.5%.

The problem with Defense is that when we load up on it, we never bring the mob close to 0 damage (unlike the other way around, where mobs with ridiculous Defense get us to hit for all-zeros.)

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

This is where your analysis went horribly wrong. You don't need to do 193 damage in the same 2.5 secs, you just need to do 193 damage throughout the course of the fight.

Actually, if you assume a DD setup to begin with, which is the more efficient use of time to generate enmity? Curing, or swinging? I don't think I'm off on that. The analysis was for how much enmity you can gain (in a short time period) under the condition that someone in the party is missing some HP.

The point is that the more damage you do the less you need to Cure to keep the same hate.

Keep in mind the reverse of your words is just as true: the more you cure, the less damage you need to do to have the monster stay on you--if there's ~200 HP missing, and you have MP, curing works better than doing damage.

The less you need to Cure, the less likely you are to cause downtime.

No, the real road block to continuing to function isn't the PLD's MP, but the healers' MP (or TP, for DNC).

Here's an somewhat absurd situations to illustrate a point: "0 MP on the PLD, 800 MP on the WHM." Pull? Of course.

Now, if you want to argue that PLD doing more damage will shorten the battle and save MP, you'll also have to quantify the amount of MP saved per minute. (I'm on the fence on that particular point, but more skeptical toward the "it saves MP" side.)

By now, I think all of us realize that we don't always need a tank in an exp party--the primary reason to have a PLD instead of another DD in an exp party is for MP management--cost less MP to have a critter beat on the PLD than on the DDs, and that's including the MP spent on Refresh (you'd Haste a DD anyway if you can, so no extra cost for Haste).

Which is why the PLD isn't wanted in merit level WS spam parties--tanking ability isn't needed, just need someone to pry the critter off of the puller.

Doing damage while tanking isn't the selling point for a PLD in exp party--tanking wile conserving recovery resource is. (Well, technically, you can call it amplification of MP resource as well, since we can turn a 40 MP Refresh into 150MP worth of Cure and Flash.)

Regarding shield's defense rating and damage mitigation:

I've actually never seen the proof of this. It might be true but I'd take it with a grain of salt.

Shield damage reduction equation :: Final Fantasy XI :: ZAM

Not sure how large of sample size; it's the only testing of this kind I know of.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

False. Take the body slot for example: the difference between Gallant Surcoat and Haubergeon is 4 VIT and 2 Def. That's never killed anyone, since people will still invite Tarutaru PLDs.

I trust your judgement as you've played PLD and I haven't.

All I'm saying is that from the perspective of the mage in the back healing, if the Paladin plays and gears offensively(at the expense of damage mitigation) to the point where they require the same amount of healing as say a Warrior, then that Paladin is going on my personal shit list. When I invite a Paladin to a exp party(Stop assuming it's birds >.<), I expect them to hold hate and take less damage than another frontline job.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

if the Paladin plays and gears offensively(at the expense of damage mitigation) to the point where they require the same amount of healing as say a Warrior,

Will never happen in practice, unless you happen to just have a bad Paladin, in which case, neither turtling nor hybrid setup would save you, anyway.

When I invite a Paladin to a exp party(Stop assuming it's birds >.<), I expect them to hold hate and take less damage than another frontline job.

Hybrid Paladins do this. Between the extra damage generation and the mob just plain dying faster, they can even do this better than full-on turtles, in fact. That's kinda the whole point of gearing up that way in the first place.

[Tipsy]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

A DD PLD isn't going to kill an exp mob so fast that he requires significantly less healing. Especially at the levels in question. End-game a PLD shouldn't even be in a meripo in the first place, tanking isn't necessary and the damage is subpar. During HNM events you're going to flail like a schoolgirl if you don't "turtle up."

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

if the Paladin plays and gears offensively(at the expense of damage mitigation) to the point where they require the same amount of healing as say a Warrior,

Will never happen in practice, unless you happen to just have a bad Paladin, in which case, neither turtling nor hybrid setup would save you, anyway.

Happens in practice--when the PLD puts away the shield and claims it's better to DD and so equips a Great Sword. (Yes, that happened to me. I told the party leader either the PLD put the shield back on or I leave.)

When I invite a Paladin to a exp party(Stop assuming it's birds >.<), I expect them to hold hate and take less damage than another frontline job.

Hybrid Paladins do this. Between the extra damage generation and the mob just plain dying faster, they can even do this better than full-on turtles, in fact. That's kinda the whole point of gearing up that way in the first place.

After a certain point, it's not what the PLDs do, but what the DDs do that determine if the PLDs get to tank or not.

The improvement in kill speed from a "DD PLD" isn't all that impressive, but it's there. I do agree a hybrid or DD PLD can generate more enmity than a defensive one, but when there's HP missing and the MP to cure, a PLD curing would generate more enmity than swinging a sword.

Want more enmity? Cure more. When you've cured as much as MP recovery or HP missing allows, that's when the damage output start to make a real difference for maximum enmity generation.

End-game a PLD shouldn't even be in a meripo in the first place, tanking isn't necessary and the damage is subpar.

Well, while I don't disagree with that sentiment (and I wouldn't bring my PLD to a pickup group), I have taken merit party invites from PLDs while on BRD and on RDM (and on SCH, but that's a one time thing when I was Lv.74). In fact, I don't think I've ever turned down anyone forming a new party, not even a 'traditional' party with a mix of BLM, RDM, BRD (me), and DDs. (I ignore people who ignore the "New party only" condition I put in /seacom, though. lol.)

After all, even PLDs need merits, and they do lose experience points at events.

During HNM events you're going to flail like a schoolgirl if you don't "turtle up."

Do things like Proto-Ultima, Proto-Omega, Suzaku and Byakko count as 'HNM'?


Except for sub (shield) and ranged (bow) slots, I switch to full DD gear when the critter isn't attacking me (i.e. when it's on my co-tank). Askar head, Peacock Charm, Brutal Earring, Suppanomimi, Homam body/hands/legs, Ecphoria Ring, Blood Ring, Amemet Mantle +1, Swift Belt, Aurum feet. (Joyeuse stays on, of course.) Like that.

Well, I use sushi for Suzaku and Proto-Omega, but Pescatora for Byakko and Proto-Ultima instead.

Very different gear when the monster is facing me, of course. lol. Actually, I think I tend to stay in DD gear even when Suzaku is facing me.


* * *


A defensive PLD typically outputs about 3~6% of the total direct damage for a normal party. Let's be generous and call it 5% average. Here's a completely synthetic scenario:

Party is outputting 1000 damage per minute. Then, at 5%, that means 50 of that damage per minute is from the PLD; the rest, or 950 dmg/min, come the the DDs.

Let's say a PLD put on DD gear, and doubles his damage output.

PLD's new output: 50 dmg/min x 2 = 100 dmg/min
Partys' new output: 950 dmg/min + 100 dmg/min = 1050 dmg/min

(1050 - 1000) / 1000 = 5% improvement.

Basically, doubling the PLD's damage output means killing 5% faster. Less, if the PLD was originally hovering around 3%.

Now, a 5% improvement to the party's output is great, but not exactly earth shattering. (We're talking about a difference between an 1 minute 40 sec battle vs. an 1 minute 35.2 second battle here.) And, pretty much you won't get any anything as dramatic as doubling of output on PLD unless you drop Defender and defense food from the routine.

Can the party sustain that drastic of a change? Some can, at some camps. The Imp camp, for example, typically has long pulling time and short kill time. In a good party with both strong DDs and good MP recovery, a PLD can go full bore DD as early as Lv.72 or even Lv.71.

In a lot of the parties, though you can go half way: drop Defender but keep defense food. I don't think that that would double the output, though, even with many slots switched to DD gear.

[Tipsy]

Re: Hello Fellow PLD

Do things like Proto-Ultima, Proto-Omega, Suzaku and Byakko count as 'HNM'?


Except for sub (shield) and ranged (bow) slots, I switch to full DD gear when the critter isn't attacking me (i.e. when it's on my co-tank). Askar head, Peacock Charm, Brutal Earring, Suppanomimi, Homam body/hands/legs, Ecphoria Ring, Blood Ring, Amemet Mantle +1, Swift Belt, Aurum feet. (Joyeuse stays on, of course.) Like that.

That's complete and honest contribution to the fight. Nothing wrong with it.

I just don't see the logic in compromising your roll as a PLD in order to output "5%" more damage, especially on HNMs (where your damage output would be even less efficient).

When it comes down to it, it's personal preference, DD PLD is not make or break. I enjoy(ed) as PLD working on taking as minimal damage as possible, some may enjoy the small damage increase. None of it should be considered fact, they're mere beliefs and opinions based on user accumulated data and personal experience.

Also, you can tell me the theory of VIT/DEF is old and outdated, however if you possess falsifiable evidence that completely disproves it, then I'm all ears(eyes). Until then, your theory is just as good as mine.