PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

[Karinya]

Re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

I don't think FFXIV is on the horizon at this point, more like in a galaxy far far away. People like to talk about it, but there's hardly even a tentative release date. Even FFIII is barely on the horizon.

Regardless, SE has said repeatedly that they have no intention of abandoning FFXI development.

It does seem to me, though, that if they were ever going to nerf Utsusemi, it's needed it just as badly for 5 years as it does today.

I don't really understand Lmnop's comment, though. PLD is safer, but RDM is "better" in some unspecified way that isn't related to their higher chance of dying in the middle of the fight? Last time I checked, death was a fairly major downside for a tank, even more so than using up more MP/effort from support characters.

[Armando]

Re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

I don't really understand Lmnop's comment, though. PLD is safer, but RDM is "better" in some unspecified way that isn't related to their higher chance of dying in the middle of the fight? Last time I checked, death was a fairly major downside for a tank, even more so than using up more MP/effort from support characters.

He means that RDM has higher performance, which may or may not make up for the lack of extra "oh shit" buttons in certain situations.

And, at least when *I* say safety nets, I mean safety nets for others, not for the tank. A RDM isn't that much more likely to die than a PLD. It's just that a RDM/NIN doesn't have Cover, Shield Bash, Sentinel, or Rampart to fall back on if something goes wrong and someone else ends up with hate.

[Taskmage]

Re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

A good question would be does rdm get access to good MDB gear? A lot of the endgame baddies are more devastating magically than physically I'm not sure if rdm or pld would stand better against these TP moves with comparable MDB gear.

This is my citadel buster set. It only reaches -18% mdt. The other rdm that tanks with us uses 3 more pieces of the coral harness set to reach -25% which puts you at the mdt cap with Shell IV. Then of course there's the trait for mdb +12 and anothre mdb +5 coming from gear. Pld has a much easier time reaching the -25% mdt cap tanks to iron ram lance. A pld with full IR Hauberk set, resolute belt and lamian kaman+1 would have mdb+21. To beat that a rdm would need dalmatica, but if they had it they would have higher total mdb while still keeping their enmity weapons on.

So they're basically equivalent. In the absolute best case scenario rdm inches ahead by 2 points of mdb, but that difference is going to be covered by rampart. And at that, you can survive one of those big booms with much less.

Wait... Selling? The backbone of pld/nin gear is homam, which if you have it, you can't sell, and if you don't have it, that might be a clue about your performance problem.

I have only homam hands and the lolhat which I don't use. I bet homam legs would help ease my frustration about recasting ichi, although I don't think they would significantly increase my enmity output. Aside from that, and this is merely a personal issue, the queues for homam drops in our group are looong. I'm actually near the front of the queue, but if I take myself off the list for corazza and cosciales that would knock months off the time we'd need to finish everyone out.

Though it is rather an amusing point you make about ex gear. In going through it I found only 5 non-ex items that are used by my pld but not my rdm.

Anyway, I don't think that providing your own refresh, haste, or even stoneskin is impressive in an endgame situation (especially considering the casting time of those spells and the fact that a blink tank will not want to use Composure). If your LS doesn't have other people in the tank party that can provide those buffs, they need to relearn how to build tank parties (or are critically undermanned, I guess).

I use composure to recast refresh, haste and phalanx, then cancel it. We run limbus with ~12 people and we often can't afford the space for 3 brd and 2 backline rdm or just don't have them available. Our tank party that particular night contained two pld/nin, a sam/thf, two brd and a whm. Without trying to extend this to a generalization, I think I absolutely should have come rdm if I was thinking more clearly at the time.

I'm very inclined to blame the DD aproach for the subpar performance... But I don't think starting yet another Turtle vs DD playstyle debate would help this thread in any way so I better stop here.

I throw on DD gear between enmity actions because I don't see anything else useful to do. What would I do instead with your approach?

Something I've noticed about your enmity comparisons on page 1: these seem to assume no outside buffs? You're probably running with Haste + double marches. I don't know what RDM fast cast amounts to and I'm too lazy to look it up, but I bet you're well over the 50% cap. Meanwhile, you didn't take into account that your PLD should have those buffs and is more likely casting Flash every 25ish seconds. What I'm getting at is: outside haste buffs are affecting your 2 jobs differently. Does this affect your TE comparisons? And if this doesn't cap your PLD recasts, perhaps you should look into doing so? It will almost assuredly affect your enmity more than some measly +enmity slots.

But i'm too lazy to do the math, so I'm just gonna throw this out to you.

This is actually a very good point. I left off outside buffs assuming they would affect each set of numbers equally and not change the comparison, but my rdm is at ~30% cast time reduction. With double march and haste there's actually 15% haste that's getting "wasted" on my rdm that my pld would have the benefit of. But if that's the case then I need to be swapping some haste items in my Sleep II set for +enmity ones to make the comparison accurate.

I already lost the time I needed for a shower before work typing this long post so I'll do that when I get home if someone else doesn't beat me to it.

[Icemage]

Re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

I don't think FFXIV is on the horizon at this point, more like in a galaxy far far away. People like to talk about it, but there's hardly even a tentative release date. Even FFIII is barely on the horizon.

Regardless, SE has said repeatedly that they have no intention of abandoning FFXI development.

What S-E says and what they do are often at odds with one another.

My point is that Square-Enix is quite obviously pouring resources into development of FFXIV - and those resources are coming directly from the team that develops FFXI.

I sincerely doubt we'll see too many more gameplay changes for FFXI - particularly not of a drastic nature, as a change to Utsusemi would be, at this late date - reason being, if they hose it up, there probably aren't enough man-hours available to fix it without screwing up development of FFXIV in some fashion. Hence I expect S-E to play it safe and leave the status quo as it is, no matter how broken it may be.


Icemage

[Mog]

Re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

Wait... Selling? The backbone of pld/nin gear is homam, which if you have it, you can't sell, and if you don't have it, that might be a clue about your performance problem.

Homam, while nice to have is not needed. There are plenty of good alternatives for haste and enmity.

[Lmnop]

Re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

This is actually a very good point. I left off outside buffs assuming they would affect each set of numbers equally and not change the comparison, but my rdm is at ~30% cast time reduction. With double march and haste there's actually 15% haste that's getting "wasted" on my rdm that my pld would have the benefit of. But if that's the case then I need to be swapping some haste items in my Sleep II set for +enmity ones to make the comparison accurate.

Remember, the bigger values for fast cast are the cast time reduction, and the smaller value (half of the larger) is recast (haste). So make sure you're working with the recast time.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

In a lot of ways, this whole thread reminds me of the old PLD vs. NIN wars, except that now that enmity is better understood, it turns out RDM/NIN is a better NIN than NIN is. (Although Yonin might change that analysis. I haven't seen a Yonin NIN/DRK since the update.)

Earth Staff NIN/DRK with Yonin was absolutely solid on Tinnin (ZNM tier 4) last night. Keep in mind that Tinnin was completely immune to Stun, too. So was PLD/NIN, save for one little freak back-to-back TP move with cures slightly slow in coming incident. heh.

I would expect a good RDM/NIN to just as well.

There are now three end-game tanks instead of two. Which is not a bad thing at all.

People tended to focus too much on the best case - if everything is going smoothly NIN or /NIN works great. But tanking isn't about the best case, it's about the line between almost dead and dead, and how to push that line a little bit further. The value of surviving (even barely) something that would have killed another tank shouldn't be underestimated.

The bottom line is, though, if a mob can't kill even the best-prepared tank once in a while, it doesn't really qualify as much of an HNM in the first place. Endgame is about teamwork, and tank pissing contests shouldn't be allowed to obscure that point.

Worth quoting.

Edit:

Homam, while nice to have is not needed. There are plenty of good alternatives for haste and enmity.

Not for the Legs.

For Feet, there are Dusk (which sucks for any kiting) and Aurum, but Homam is still king. Hands is a toss up between Askar and Homam, with Dusk as alternative. Personally, I favor Homam in the hands again, plus I do enough kiting to avoid Dusk on PLD even though I have NQ for hands and feet.

That said, I do agree PLDs don't really "need" Homam Hands/Legs/Feet to tank; Dusk hands and feet are good enough, as annoying as they are.

* * *

I like Homam head when on PLD/DNC. Call me odd...

[Taskmage]

Re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

A pissing contest was not the intention. It's not really about one being > that the other so much as I've had a long string of experiences on pld lately where I felt useless and wished I had come on rdm instead. I'm frustrated that I leveled pld so I could be a better tank and it hasn't really delivered for me.

Somebody asked earlier what food I tank in and I neglected to answer. It's almost always carbonara. More hp = more chance to survive bit hits and less enmity lost from smaller ones. On stuff that's bound to get a lot of hits through no matter what like Faust it's a taco or fishkabob, and if I ever did any kiting it'd be dorado sushi.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

I tend to stick with Pescatora for a decent combination of HP and defense, since I do miscount shadows from time to time; other PLDs (and NIN) in our group use the same.

Been lazy about getting more Dorado Sushi, so did most kiting sans food. Then again, most kiting lately have been Genbu, so no big deal.

[ShepardG]

Re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

Question(s)

I have a pretty decent redmage, and i've been wanting to learn how to tank with /nin i'll give a quick gear set, and don't consider money an option for getting new gear when you make recomendations.

Head: Duelist Chapeau +1, Warlocks, Walahra, darksteel cap +1, what else is good?
Neck:???
Ear1/2:I have Celestial,Loquaious,Enfeebling- what's good here?
Body:Dalmatica,Duelist,Warlocks, Errants, What other body piece is good to idle in ? is dalmy where it's at?
Hands:Got Zeniths, Duelist's, Dusk, ???
Ring1/2:Star,Bahlrans,insect,Snow ring, I traded in my CoP ring for Rajas (PUP74 YESPLEASE), coral rings worth idleing in?
Back:Umbra, Laminan, Hexeri???, ???
Waist:Swift belt, Witch Sash, ???
Legs:Mahatmma, ??? I have zenith but meh, i don't think it would be taht good.
Feet:Goliard, Dusk, ???

I have all Darksteel +1 set, but no Coral pieces, as I have yet to get serious about this, and I've also been wanting to learn before i drop any more cash.

So basically the only thing I know is to swap in all my fast cast/haste gear for ni/ichi, and stoneskin (i'm planning on getting gorget and mufflers soon for stoneskin). What do I idle in? physical or magic reduction/DB gear? can i substitue my chapeau in for 2/tic refresh? Is it better to main hand say something like antares and a shield, or just stick with HQ staves?
Ceremonial Dagger x2 and En-spell? I'm almost fully merited (enfeebling, MP merits, 3 paralyzeII, 3 Slow II, 3 Ice/Earth each, 1 wind acc, 1 phalanx II)

I'd just really like to know how to tank, SCNM bosses, Kirin if possible, Sea gods, Zeni Mobs, Aht Urghan Kings, like the beastmen kings, not cerb,khim,etc., Don't do alot of limbus really.

Thanks in advance for any advice, or direction to guides, i'm at work so i can only access ffxionline.com but i'l check after class tonight.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

My point is that Square-Enix is quite obviously pouring resources into development of FFXIV - and those resources are coming directly from the team that develops FFXI.

I sincerely doubt we'll see too many more gameplay changes for FFXI - particularly not of a drastic nature, as a change to Utsusemi would be, at this late date - reason being, if they hose it up, there probably aren't enough man-hours available to fix it without screwing up development of FFXIV in some fashion. Hence I expect S-E to play it safe and leave the status quo as it is, no matter how broken it may be.

That's it. I have HAD IT with all this "FFXI is dying" talk on this forum!

S-E has been "pouring resources" in to FFXIV for the past five years now, and to little effect of FFXI. The fact that they have even recently implemented such long-requested updates as Enspells II alongside buffing White Mages to High Heaven in an obvious attempt to reclaim their positions as the uncontested go-to guys for healing, as well as Level Sync especially!, is hardly the sign of a waning development team.

Think about it: why would S-E have waited this long, this (relatively) late in FFXIV's production, to announce the title of the game? Maybe S-E wanted to procrastinate the inevitable [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo"]reverse placebo[/ame] effect that the community is obviously suffering from right now and minimize its effect. That would be the smart thing to do (including financially), as FFXI is (contrary to what detractors may say) far from being a dead game. At the very worst, it is middle-aged, and that through no logical fault of FFXIV's, and certainly not through any lack of effort on S-E's part. And even if it was middle-aged, this game would still have a good seven years left in it, anyway!

As always, FFXIV or no, the answer is still "FFXI is going nowhere any time soon."

[ShepardG]

Re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

....*sniff*...I no learn rdm tank?

[Raydeus]

Re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

If anything I'd suggest adding Brutal.

Have you soloed Avatars and stuff? If not then go fight a few rounds of those and it should give you a good idea of what to use.

Other than that acc as needed and Haste is what you usually idle in while trying to swap fast cast for spells with a long recast like you said. It's more about paying attention and thinking 2 attack rounds ahead rather than gear.

For instance, I tank in some of the cheapest gear there is and still manage to survive pretty nasty NMs, only really ok piece I have (that isn't very easy to obtain) is Duelist's Tabard, but thats about it.

So you should be more than ok with the gear you have.

Also have to remember that some mobs you tank, others you kite. So you'll have to adjust your gear accordingly. But only practice will give you the knowledge for that because I'm pretty sure everyone has different ways to approach tanking the same mobs.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

Thanks in advance for any advice, or direction to guides, i'm at work so i can only access ffxionline.com but i'l check after class tonight.

Re-read the thread; Taskmage posted a few links to his gear you can check out when you're home.

I didn't come across much enmity gear in your list in a quick glance; you'll probably want at least one Macuahuitl +1, if not two. There should be enmity gear for neck and other slots as well. You'll want to cast enmity spells like Sleep I/II, Dispel, Blind, Bind in those. Zenith set is also good for lowering your HP so you can drop cure onto yourself, though a RDM/NIN tank probably don't need that trick as much as a PLD does. (Carry a Light Staff anyway; I think for tanking use, a Light Staff is the minimum staff needed by RDM if one has the Genbu's Shield--if not, carry Earth Staff as well.)

Idle gear probably would be Auto Refresh gear in head and body, then damage reduction (or MDB, depending on target) everywhere else you can. Due to space issue, I'm not sure if you'd want to carry DD gear to idle in. If you really want to take advantage of the en- damage, I'd say stick with tier I (not II), cast in full enhancing gear, and use Joyeuse + Justice Sword with Accuracy gear. Even if using daggers instead, I'd say tier I over II, since you wouldn't want to idle in enhancing gear if you want to hit the critters.

The exact gearing recommendation depends on the exact target, of course.

[Taskmage]

Re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

S-E has been "pouring resources" in to FFXIV for the past five years now, and to little effect of FFXI. The fact that they have even recently implemented such long-requested updates as Enspells II alongside buffing White Mages to High Heaven in an obvious attempt to reclaim their positions as the uncontested go-to guys for healing, as well as Level Sync especially!, is hardly the sign of a waning development team.

I started to respond, but do we really want to have this conversation here?

Shepard, this is the guide I got started with: belkinator: RDM/NIN -- What it do, mang.
Two years old but nothing has really changed much other than that it's nice to composure your buffs so you don't have to take time to recast as often.The rdm enmity table is obviously something you want to have some familiarity with, or really Kaeko's whole enmity guide, at least the tl;dr summaries. Experience is the best teacher. Keep a critical eye to your performance; make what worked work better and figure out how you can fix what didn't work.