PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

[Taskmage]

Before I even start I want to say this isn't meant to be an lolpld post. I'm not trying to gloat, but I've leveled both rdm and pld to 75 and gotten to tank with both, and my performance isn't nearly as good with pld. I'm disappointed because the job isn't shaping up the way I thought it would and I feel like I've wasted my time in leveling and gearing it.

It seems to me that I can build hate faster on rdm than pld, keep shadows up and recast them easier with fast cast, have better post-shadow defenses than pld and require less support since I am my own refresh and haste and convert can be used more frequently and reliably than chivalry.

Somebody please give me a reason not to sell my pld gear.

[Malacite]

re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

Not to mention RDM can use both Excalibur & Mandau, and Death Blossom is a bitching WS...

Still, I wonder how a RDM would fare against some of the nastier NMs :O

[Taskmage]

re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

Some math because I know somebody's going to question my hate-building assertion. I flash in this; I Sleep II in this.

I have a 37 second recast on Flash and I generate 1912 enmity per cast. That's 50 enmity per second over time and ~12% is CE.
I have a 21 second recast on Sleep II and I generate 1200 enmity per cast. That's 57 enmity per second and half of it is CE.

Pld gets Shield Bash but I can generate more enmity with blind bind blind for 18 mp. I realize I'm burning mp twice as fast with rdm and pld has sentinel which is a great skill, but I believe convert produces approximately the same hate as two sentinels while taking care of the mp problem.

Invincible is a joke. I usually hold hate through a pld's invince due to my CE being so much higher that him capping VE doesn't matter.

Still, I wonder how a RDM would fare against some of the nastier NMs :O

I've only done Omega and Ultima but they're basically a piece of cake. I have a much harder time with them on pld. There's a vid on youtube ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEgEGKZTxfU&hd=1 ) of a certain bitchin rdm who used to post here tanking the KSNM wyrm. I'm sure there are other better examples.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

Your findings certainly don't surprise me. Curious what good examples some PLDs might be able to give us where they are sure their Enmity+ gear and native defense will shine.

[Yellow Mage]

re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

I'm conflicted. As much as I like Paladin as a class, I am a Red Mage, after all, and this post is essentially "RDM is too awesome."

I think a Paladin should have more damage-dealing potential than us, though, thus generating more hate in that department. Sentinel has the added advantage of doubling the hate of all your actions, and against things where /NIN is not an absolute must, a Paladin can sub some of our more awesome spells. Furthermore, Paladin is never forced in to a more boring role than tanking. I dunno, though, I guess we need an expert on the subject who chose the route of the Paladin over that of the Red Mage:

/ma Armando <me>

[Raydeus]

re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

PLD is a great sub for Campaign.

[Icemage]

re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

The only real problems with RDM tanking these days from a gameplay standpoint is that there isn't any real way to quickly spike hate on RDM. PLDs can gain enmity in a hurry when they need to, and there are times when spamming Sleep isn't always a good idea (esp. against enemies that rage and/or quickly build resistance to Sleep).

All in all though, in a situation where you can blinktank and not worry about getting heavily one-shotted, RDM/NIN can certainly outperform PLD/NIN.

I really do think Square-Enix probably needs to re-evaluate how enmity works. It's one thing to be a capable tank as a RDM. It's quite another when you can tank better (in any situation, no matter how uncommon) than a job that is built around tanking - and which sacrifices trade-offs to do so.

Really it's stuff like this that makes me want to scream shut up! to all the whiny RDMs out there who come in after every single update and go "Boo, why is RDM so neglected?".


Icemage

[ItazuraNhomango]

re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

I find PLD easier to use as a tank; it just has a better 'flow' for me, and it is a good balance between survivability and enmity. That said, I'm pretty sure RDM is better at generating enmity if properly geared.

From what little experience I have as an (ill equipped) RDM tank verses as a (frequent) PLD tank, there are a few points of comparison I can make:
- Reprisal is better than RDM's Fast Cast for Ichi, IMO, but Fast Cast is full-time. More or less a wash there.
- HP is easier to come by for PLD, and for some fights HP wins if the support team is there. Stoneskin is akin to a 350HP+, though.
- Stoneskin is incredible nice to have but time spent casting isn't so nice, since that time is needed to cast enmity spells.
- RDM is better at not getting into trouble, but PLD is better at surviving and recovering from trouble.
- Faster enmity building means PLD makes better backup tank than RDM. (Obviously not a factor if your main tanks never bite the dust or d/c.)
- Atonement. For any fight the PLD can idle in some amount of TP'ing gear and use Atonement, this is a big plus.
- Player fatigue; a PLD tank is less active than a RDM tank.
- RDM wins the MP flow game, but sooner or later eating a big hit on Convert will happen.
- Of course, PLD can eat dirt expectantly as well; dropped from 600+ HP to 0 earlier tonight vs. Proto-Ultima in a blink of an eye--crit hit + TP move while I'm casting Ichi isn't fair. lol.

[Taskmage]

re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

See, I had a proto-ultima tonight as well. He hit me with a Wire Cutter for 1500+ while I was casting my very first ichi of the fight. After I unweakened I hit sentinel, popped every hate tool I had and cast Flash + a cheated Cure III for 195 every ~30 seconds thereafter and never regained hate for the rest of the fight. Frustration over that is why I posted. If I had been on rdm not only would I have survived the cutter in the first place, but even if I had gone down I could've chainspelled and capped my TE in under a minute.

I guess as Wishmaster3k was telling me earlier, it's a matter of style. I enjoy tanking much more on rdm than on pld, and I'm much better at it. That's really what it comes down to.

[ItazuraNhomango]

re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

After I unweakened I hit sentinel, popped every hate tool I had and cast Flash + a cheated Cure III for 195 every ~30 seconds thereafter and never regained hate for the rest of the fight. Frustration over that is why I posted.

If your co-tank was doing that well, there was no need for you to regain top position in enmity. Basically, you became the backup tank--the one Proto-Ultima would face if your co-tank ate dirt, instead of, say, the WHM or the BLM.

Sometimes, the best thing a PLD can do for an alliance is to play the second fiddle, and concentrate on keeping the main tank alive while keeping his MP reserve high.

If I had been on rdm not only would I have survived the cutter in the first place, but even if I had gone down I could've chainspelled and capped my TE in under a minute.

Hmm. If your HP was high and SS was full strength, probably would survive. May depend on how much dmg%- gear you have in the middle of Ichi casting.

I actually ate dirt (as well as d/c'ed) multiple times during the fight, and had to rebuild enmity from 0 a few times. You can only Chainspell once every two hour, but Sentinel is there every 4 minute and 10 second.

During one of those "rebuild" times, the other PLD was doing very well, so I played second fiddle until his HP dropped to 100's. Landed a Cure IV, then I became co-tank again.

I guess as Wishmaster3k was telling me earlier, it's a matter of style. I enjoy tanking much more on rdm than on pld, and I'm much better at it. That's really what it comes down to.

Yeah, if it works for you, go for it. If you can do a better tanking job on RDM than PLD, stick with that.

* * *

One thing I did while still weakened was to cure. (The RDM saw me cure, so gave me a Refresh.) That made rebuilding enmity quite a bit easier, I think, once I was unweakened. Then, I used Chivalry to regain MP once I was back on the front line.

[odjnlinus]

re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

Paladin looks cooler..... not to mention, I don't know a lot of RDMs that can out-tank a good or rather decent PLD. Your one of those exceptional RDM players and to that I tip my hat.

[Empedocles]

re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

What the hell is the point of Paladin?

Easy: It's the go-to tank.

I can't think of anything right now that a Paladin cannot tank.

Can a Red Mage tank better than a Paladin in some situations? Sure. Is it better to use a Warrior instead of a Paladin sometimes? Perhaps.

Before I even start I want to say this isn't meant to be an lolpld post. I'm not trying to gloat, but having leveled both rdm and pld to 75 and gotten to tank with both, I have no idea why I even bothered with pld.

Your second sentence killed any credibility to the first.

After I unweakened I hit sentinel, popped every hate tool I had and cast Flash + a cheated Cure III for 195 every ~30 seconds thereafter and never regained hate for the rest of the fight.

Maybe the guy in the actual tanking spot was just doing better than you?

[Taskmage]

re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

Your second sentence killed any credibility to the first.

Maybe the guy in the actual tanking spot was just doing better than you?

How is it that you think I'm gloating? "Haha, stupid plds I wasted days of my life leveling your job. Suckers!" It doesn't make any sense.

I feel that I'm a worse tank in every respect as a pld as opposed to rdm and I don't think that I'm doing anything wrong. If I could be doing a better job then I invite you to make suggestions. Please prove me wrong! The entire point of me making this thread was in the hope that someone would prove me wrong. You insinuating I'm an asshole who just sucks at pld doesn't add anything to the conversation. >_<

---------- Post added at 02:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:01 PM ----------

If your co-tank was doing that well, there was no need for you to regain top position in enmity. Basically, you became the backup tank--the one Proto-Ultima would face if your co-tank ate dirt, instead of, say, the WHM or the BLM.

Sometimes, the best thing a PLD can do for an alliance is to play the second fiddle, and concentrate on keeping the main tank alive while keeping his MP reserve high.

On the matter of actual constructive conversation, I don't consider this effective co-tanking. Taking turns solo tanking requires much more from each tank and leaves you much more open to the possibility of having no tank at all. A two tank setup works much better when hate is roughly equalized between the two, so that in the event one tank takes one on the chin, the mob will immediately turn to the other tank while the first gets back on his feet. It's also useful to be able to turn the mob at will when the hate target needs to cast ichi, to avoid the chance of interrupts entirely. So it's important to be able to reach that equilibrium again, which is why it bothers me so much that I wasn't able to do it while using my mp at the maximum sustainable level.

[Armando]

re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

The point is, as has been mentioned, that PLD is the default tank. In the event that drama happens and your LS breaks up or you're kicked or whatever, I imagine your next shell might not be as open to the idea of a RDM tanking, as sound as it may be.

Then there's Atonement, Cover, and backup hate tools.

But yeah, pretty much what has been said already. And yeah it's pretty lame how enmity works, huh.

[Empedocles]

re: PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion

Everyone, disregard this post, I changed it after hitting back button or something and it ended up posting it.