Starting PLD but confused - HELP!

[lufia22]

So originally I was going to duo COR with my brother's RDM for standard XP groups. With recent hikes in bullet prices on my server, I'm beginning to realize I just can't afford COR on the assets I currently have from previously playing the game until I have a higher level job to help fund myself. So now I'm switching COR to PLD. Hey, healer and tank for a group. Sounds just as good, if not better than RDM and COR.

As I do with any job, I read extensively on how to play them before I actually play them. I do this mainly because I tend to buy gear in large 10-20 level clumps. I don't like to stop to gear up and I have the money to do this (though obviously not enough money to plopping down 100k on bullets I can never sell back). Much to my delight, this forum had a nice 10-60 gear guide! Unfortunately, after having returned from years of absence and "overhearing" things and now reading the PLD forums, I am incredibly confused on how to gear my PLD.

Apparently DD tanking, or whatever you wish to call it, is the new way to tank. The 10-60 gear guide highlights these gear choices in red. My confusion comes as to when DD tanking becomes effective and to what degree I should "DD tank" (i.e. should I deck out my PLD in full DD gear or what). Lets say I'm using that sticky as a reference. Should I be choosing all the gear that's highlighted in red or should I be mixing and matching? How do I base my judgment on where I need more offensive gear over defensive gear?

Is VIT really a dead stat as I have read on these forums?

Lastly for PLD subs. I am mostly concerned with general XP parties right now. I will go back and perfect my subjob choices at a later date. I have heard of RDM, NIN, and DNC as possible PLD subs in my short time of reading the topics on the front page. I'm pretty sure NIN is just an end-game subjob, and I believe RDM is too, but I'm not too positive as to the usefulness of DNC in XP groups. Should I even bother starting to XP as a PLD if I haven't unlocked DNC or will WAR last me for the majority of XP grouping?

Thanks for any input. Coming back to the game has overwhelmed me and I thought PLD would be quite an easy job to come into. Turns out things have changed and now I'm having to relearn what's hip and cool for tanking currently. Anything to relieve the stress of diving into the unknown would be a big help.

[Armando]

Re: Starting PLD but confused - HELP!

Is VIT really a dead stat as I have read on these forums?

Sadly, yes. It's not available in large enough quantities to make it effective - it takes 4 VIT to lower the mob's DMG (as in, the DMG rating on their virtual weapon) by 1 whole point. At low levels, it's hard enough to scrape up VIT in more than 1 or 2 points at a time; in higher levels, the situation isn't much better AND there's other more powerful stats available.

"DD tanking" is only called "DD tanking" because of how insanely defensive the old way of gearing up was - entirely focused on VIT and Def, with a complete disregard for offensive stats. In reality "DD tanking" is more of a compromise between defense and offense.

To answer your actual question, in general EXP situations, you always want to gear offensively. The secret is that this can be done without hurting your Defense stat much. You trade off VIT, Evasion (you can't dodge a VT or IT mob in the first place,) and small amounts of Defense for larger chunks of Attack and Accuracy, leaving you with almost the same defenses as before but a much stronger offense. With your improved offense, the mob dies slightly quicker, and you generate more hate without relying on Cures and JAs. Gearing for "DD tanking" starts as soon as you start to party. Though the options are limited at low levels, some are still there - such as Mighty Rings and Spike Necklace/Tiger Stole.

At higher levels (50+, possibly as low as 40 if your party has no downtime as it is) then eating Sushi over Defense food becomes an option. THAT is the real choice you have to make. If the party A) is hunting mobs appropriate for its level and B) has some source of Refresh and an adquate main healer then you'll be better off with sushi. You'll take more damage per hit but you'll do much more damage than with Defense food. if your party is overhunting and/or has no form of Refresh to sustain you and the healers, then you're likely better off with Defense food. The obvious exception is Colibri camps where eating food isn't much of an option.

Lastly for PLD subs. I am mostly concerned with general XP parties right now. I will go back and perfect my subjob choices at a later date. I have heard of RDM, NIN, and DNC as possible PLD subs in my short time of reading the topics on the front page. I'm pretty sure NIN is just an end-game subjob, and I believe RDM is too, but I'm not too positive as to the usefulness of DNC in XP groups. Should I even bother starting to XP as a PLD if I haven't unlocked DNC or will WAR last me for the majority of XP grouping?

Here's a quick breakdown of the "alternative" subs:
/NIN - Besides some odd BCNM or mission event, you won't (and generally shouldn't) be touching this one until Level 74 when Utsusemi: Ni becomes available.
/RDM - 68+ this is a strong soloing sub if you cap your Enhancing (HINT: Start working on it now and re-cap it every time you level. YOU WILL REGRET IT otherwise.) Higher MP, Magic Defense Bonus, Barspells, Phalanx and Stoneskin provide a lot of survivability while Enspells provide a way to boost your damage. Not very worth using before 68. This sub can technically hold hate in a party with Refresh, but to do so it spends most of its time casting as opposed to fighting.
/DNC - This is more of a solo/low man sub than anything else in my opinion. While /DNC provides a near-bottomless well of healing in many situations, it does so at the expense of a large portion of your offense. /RDM is a stronger solo sub post 68 in my opinion, but this one has more endurance before Phalanx and Stoneskin are available.

[lufia22]

Re: Starting PLD but confused - HELP!

So lets pretend I were to use your guide to gear myself up. How would you personally choose gear from your guide? Would you choose all the recommended gear in red, or would you mix and match? And if you would mix and match, what goes into this process of deciding how to balance defense and offense?

I suppose knowing what the defense cap is would be useful for deciding on gear. Is there any sort of formula or easy way to check this?

[Armando]

Re: Starting PLD but confused - HELP!

So lets pretend I were to use your guide to gear myself up. How would you personally choose gear from your guide? Would you choose all the recommended gear in red, or would you mix and match? And if you would mix and match, what goes into this process of deciding how to balance defense and offense?

The most important pieces are the ones marked with an asterisk. In general you can progress through the marked pieces.

I suppose knowing what the defense cap is would be useful for deciding on gear. Is there any sort of formula or easy way to check this?

There is no cap, it simply stops being as effective past a point. It's not something we have enough information on; but it's irrelevant either way. You won't reach that point with gear alone, it's through buffs. Anything past the 25% Defense boost you get out of food is excessive.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Starting PLD but confused - HELP!

Sadly, yes. It's not available in large enough quantities to make it effective - it takes 4 VIT to lower the mob's DMG (as in, the DMG rating on their virtual weapon) by 1 whole point. At low levels, it's hard enough to scrape up VIT in more than 1 or 2 points at a time; in higher levels, the situation isn't much better AND there's other more powerful stats available.

If one or two effective base damage does not mean much, why people want higher Dmg rating from weapons? Not saying VIT is ultra effective, but I'm somewhat skeptical that VIT can be considered completely useless.

If monster has high Dmg rating, I can understand 1 point change to its fSTR would have little effect. Same if it has low attack (well, low cRatio). Would be interesting to see what those numbers are like for the typical exp targets.

BTW, it's not too hard to get some VIT even at Lv.30. I was probably a tad too obsessive, though... VIT+20 between gear and food.

To answer your actual question, in general EXP situations, you always want to gear offensively. The secret is that this can be done without hurting your Defense stat much. You trade off VIT, Evasion (you can't dodge a VT or IT mob in the first place,)

Level synch'ed WAR28/NIN14 (C ranked base evasion; same as PLD). No evasion merit; gear directly altering evasion: Empress Hairpin (nearly full-time), Beetle Earring +1 x2. Pizza for food. (Full gear list, IIRC, should be like this: FFXIGEAR.com) The targets were Yhoator Mandragora and Goblin Smithy.

Passive Defenses
Player...Evasion..Evasion %..Parry..Parry %..Counter..Counter %..Intimidate..Intimidate %
Itazura...... 58....13.15 % ....27...7.05 %........0.....0.00 %...........0........0.00 %

While evasion is not the bulk of any PLD's or WAR's defensive capability, it is substantial. (Compared with 53.38% for Utsusemi: Ichi from same session, for example.)

It an exaggeration to say that PLD (or WAR) doesn't evade, and misleading to imply evasion- gear has no impact on damage taken. At lower levels, at least, evasion is a integral component a PLD's damage mitigation over time.

and small amounts of Defense for larger chunks of Attack and Accuracy, leaving you with almost the same defenses as before but a much stronger offense. With your improved offense, the mob dies slightly quicker, and you generate more hate without relying on Cures and JAs.

While the above statements are not false, it is safer and more reliable to generate enmity with Cures than with damage output for most levels, in my opinion.

Take Lv.55 for example; a PLD is most likely fighting Lesser Colibri (Lv.63-65). Let's use Lv.63 Colibri for the discussion. Ignoring CE (since PLD/WAR gets hit all the time anyway), the VE Modifier for damage output is 5.33, while the VE Modifier for cure is 5.58.

That means a PLD/WAR must do over 209 points of damage to equal 200 points of HP cured (1116VE spike at Lv.55.) on self. You can drop a Cure III in 2.5 seconds, and it doesn't matter how your gear is; it's not hard to come by that 200 HP deficit on the bar for a Cure III at this level--if not yourself, then on someone else in party.

In contrast, PLD doing 200+ damage at that level would require quite a few hits, WS aside. (How much WS damage can a PLD do in an Lv.55 exp party anyway?) Colibri or not, a PLD will have far more opportunity to use Cure III compared to WS in normal exp party situations, and can use Cure III effectively without losing defensive gears, and works with Defender.

Gearing for "DD tanking" starts as soon as you start to party. Though the options are limited at low levels, some are still there - such as Mighty Rings and Spike Necklace/Tiger Stole.

At higher levels (50+, possibly as low as 40 if your party has no downtime as it is) then eating Sushi over Defense food becomes an option. THAT is the real choice you have to make. If the party A) is hunting mobs appropriate for its level and B) has some source of Refresh and an adquate main healer then you'll be better off with sushi. You'll take more damage per hit but you'll do much more damage than with Defense food. if your party is overhunting and/or has no form of Refresh to sustain you and the healers, then you're likely better off with Defense food. The obvious exception is Colibri camps where eating food isn't much of an option.

While I agree in principle that in many parties it would be better for PLD to be offensively geared and eat sushi (and have used DD setup in many parties), I still think up-and-coming PLDs should weight the decision more carefully and be given more warnings; it's all too easy to drain a healer's MP dry if care isn't taken.

DD vs. defensive PLD thoughts

Ideally, a PLD should do both damage and cures for enmity. Reality, however, calls for some substantial trade offs.

Cures are compatible with any gear/food set up--but not really compatible with doing damage--the time you cast is time you don't swing--0 damage output. Damage output, on the other hand, is incompatible with not just cure casting, but with defensive setup and practices in general; Shield Torque vs. Peacock Charm, Fowling Earring vs. Buckler Earring, Berserk vs. Defender, Dorado Sushi vs. Tavnazian Taco, and even Utsusemi: Ni vs. Utsusemi: Ichi*, for that matter, are just some examples of where the offensive and defensive do not mesh. (* A PLD/NIN tank casts Ichi over Ichi, trying to save Ni for high pressure moments, where as a PLD/NIN DD prefers to go Ni to Ni to save casting time.)

Anyway, it is probably true that taking more damage as a PLD/WAR doesn't substantially worsen the enmity balance--one loses only CE through damage taken, and one won't have much more of a positive CE balance with defensive setup on /WAR.

The primary risk of PLD DD'ing is draining the curing resources, and a higher possibility of KO. In this light, the primary benefit of a defensive PLD is the safer generation of enmity and less of a drain on curing resources, and the DD PLD can be thought of as exchanging some amount safety and resources for faster kills.

Defensive should be the default position for a PLD/WAR; before making the switch to DD, be sure the party setup can support it.

Here's a quick breakdown of the "alternative" subs:
/NIN - Besides some odd BCNM or mission event, you won't (and generally shouldn't) be touching this one until Level 74 when Utsusemi: Ni becomes available.

It's worth adding that /NIN is nearly the default tanking support job for PLD at 75 for most 'endgame' events. It's a good idea to plan on leveling NIN to 37 before (or shortly after) reaching Lv.75 on PLD.

[Armando]

Re: Starting PLD but confused - HELP!

If one or two effective base damage does not mean much, why people want higher Dmg rating from weapons? Not saying VIT is ultra effective, but I'm somewhat skeptical that VIT can be considered completely useless.

For 2-handers the situation has changed since you can get much more Attack out of STR than a one-hander does; but in general people have never geared for STR, they just welcome any chunks of STR they can get in conjunction with their Acc/Attack/Haste. Likewise, once enough options open up, one shouldn't gear for VIT, simply welcome any random bits of VIT you can squeeze out of gear that comes with other stats.

While evasion is not the bulk of any PLD's or WAR's defensive capability, it is substantial. (Compared with 53.38% for Utsusemi: Ichi from same session, for example.)

It an exaggeration to say that PLD (or WAR) doesn't evade, and misleading to imply evasion- gear has no impact on damage taken. At lower levels, at least, evasion is a integral component a PLD's damage mitigation over time.

VIT rings lost the "equip me" competition when Mighty Rings came out. They're only marginally more expensive than Stamina Rings, and +10 Attack at level 14 is a massive boost. Between dropping the mob's fSTR by 1 and boosting your Attack by 10 in the 14-39 range it's no contest. A similar argument applies to Medieval Collar. So that narrows down your VIT intake to food and body slots.

You're right. I meant to say that by the time Haubergeon (and likely Woodsmans' any Lv.40 parse is skewed because of Flash so it would require actual testing) you can't dodge things in the first place. Before that it's kind of trivial since there's not much with beneficial stats coupled with Evasion penalties.

While the above statements are not false, it is safer and more reliable to generate enmity with Cures than with damage output for most levels, in my opinion.

Take Lv.55 for example; a PLD is most likely fighting Lesser Colibri (Lv.63-65). Let's use Lv.63 Colibri for the discussion. Ignoring CE (since PLD/WAR gets hit all the time anyway), the VE Modifier for damage output is 5.33, while the VE Modifier for cure is 5.58.

That means a PLD/WAR must do over 209 points of damage to equal 200 points of HP cured (1116VE spike at Lv.55.) on self. You can drop a Cure III in 2.5 seconds, and it doesn't matter how your gear is; it's not hard to come by that 200 HP deficit on the bar for a Cure III at this level--if not yourself, then on someone else in party.

In contrast, PLD doing 200+ damage at that level would require quite a few hits, WS aside. (How much WS damage can a PLD do in an Lv.55 exp party anyway?) Colibri or not, a PLD will have far more opportunity to use Cure III compared to WS in normal exp party situations, and can use Cure III effectively without losing defensive gears, and works with Defender.

True once again. Should've worded it as "relying less on Cures/JAs" rather than "not relying on Cures/JAs." Because they're both limited by either MP or recast timers, the more hate you can make without using either one, the better (less Cures means going longer without downtime, less JA usage means you're more likely to have a way to spike hate when things get dicey.) I look at it the other way around - doing 200 damage more means 48 MP saved on a Cure III.

Even if you're already at the point where you're refreshing more MP than you use, and therefore have no reason to cure less, more damage simply means more hate given the same amount of curing, and hopefully that means your DDs can do more damage.

I also agree with the notion that you have to make sure the party can support the DD approach; it's why I always emphasize "not overhunting" and "sufficient Refresh" or "sufficient healing." These are ideal conditions, but some parties won't be ideal. I generally go one fight without Defense food when I join a party to see how well the back line can handle the damage intake.

However I do have to say that at least at high levels, I've seldom regretted popping sushi. Practically every time it turned out to be a bad idea was either Erucas, very obvious overhunting (mobs 9-13 levels higher than the party), or a lack of Refresh.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Starting PLD but confused - HELP!

Another rule of thumb I use when it comes to DD'ing on PLD/WAR is the ability to tank: If I'm not tanking at least 75% of the fight, and this happens fight after fight (or I can tank for one or maybe two fights, then unable for the next three to four fights), then it's probably time to give up tanking, fully use Berserk, eat sushi, and play DD.

doing 200 damage more means 48 MP saved on a Cure III.

Well, saves you 48 MP, yes; hopefully it won't cost the healer too much more MP. (I play healer jobs, too--I care about damage taken per minute. A lot.)

I also agree with the notion that you have to make sure the party can support the DD approach; it's why I always emphasize "not overhunting" and "sufficient Refresh" or "sufficient healing." These are ideal conditions, but some parties won't be ideal. I generally go one fight without Defense food when I join a party to see how well the back line can handle the damage intake.

I used to test parties like that as well, but my PLD only exps in LS level synch'ed parties now. "PLD, WAR, BLU, BLM, BLM, RDM... Hmm. RDM will be overloaded, BLMs don't like to cure--defensive it is." Pretty easy to tell which way to go, when you know everyone involved.

One fight can be deceptive, though; Lv.78 Imp and Lv.81 Imp are almost entirely different species to a Lv.68 PLD. (Not that Lv.68 PLD should be exp'ing on them, but try to convince parties not to go there once Lv.65 is reached...)

However I do have to say that at least at high levels, I've seldom regretted popping sushi. Practically every time it turned out to be a bad idea was either Erucas, very obvious overhunting (mobs 9-13 levels higher than the party), or a lack of Refresh.

Incinerate sucked, but tanking those on PLD/WAR with defensive setup felt pretty natural. Did just that last week; incidentally, could readily tell when Defender dropped, even with taco. Unless the party is ridiculously stuffed with extra healing power, I don't think I'd be tempted to go DD.

Lv.70+, though, it's pretty much sushi only--unless it's Greater Colibri. Seems too troublesome (and costly) to spam even Crab Sushi for that. Though, I'm tempted to try... Kinda wish I had known about Crab Sushi earlier...

* * *

I don't want to scare off the OP; PLD is a fun job--quite popular with parties Lv.10-75, too! However you decide to set upyour PLD (and I'm hoping you'd get both defensive and offensive gear/food), please enjoy.

[Celeal]

Re: Starting PLD but confused - HELP!

To OP:

You gear and subjob choices are situational. For example, if you are able to bring/craft juice at low level parties, your definitely have more options than those PLDs who do not have juice. (Note: it is the player choice to bring juice; it is not a requirement)

For gear, try to get the most out of the 16 gear slots. For instance, macro/swap in DD gear before WS. (The rest I would suggest you to try your own, it is the fun part of PLD job)

My experience with PLD/DNC is it only "functional" if and only if you can hit the mob at a good TP gain rate, and the mob isn't dangerous. In a "proper" experience points party, which roles are well defined, PLD/DNC is not easy to fit in. And also do not expect PLD/DNC tank like a PLD/WAR: PLD/DNC is like a part time healer + part time tank with some damage output.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Starting PLD but confused - HELP!

I used to test parties like that as well, but my PLD only exps in LS level synch'ed parties now. "PLD, WAR, BLU, BLM, BLM, RDM... Hmm. RDM will be overloaded, BLMs don't like to cure--defensive it is." Pretty easy to tell which way to go, when you know everyone involved.

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, but I feel it's worth not overlooking that, if you're at exping above level 30, the BLU should at least have healing spells equipped.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Starting PLD but confused - HELP!

it's worth not overlooking that, if you're at exping above level 30, the BLU should at least have healing spells equipped.

The BLU in my party did. However, 95%+ of the BLU players do not (or do not want to) see themselves as a main/co- healer, and he wasn't an exception. He did toss out Magic Fruit once in a while, which was about what I was expecting, but I doubt he did anywhere close to 5% of the curing.

Don't count on a Blue Mage as a steady source of curing. Heck, I've came across a few who did not equip any cure spell. Do not think "Oh, RDM and BLU! Refresh and two healers means DD PLD!"