This job is too easy.

[Omni]

Re: This job is too easy.

pld/nin and get best of both worlds. hate control, dmg nullification AND dmg mitigation, self-reliance for healing and a boat load of haste gear if you're dedicated enough.

[Raitox]

Re: This job is too easy.

Not when the other tank actually requires a good player to play.

[Taskmage]

Re: This job is too easy.

pld/nin and get best of both worlds. hate control, dmg nullification AND dmg mitigation, self-reliance for healing and a boat load of haste gear if you're dedicated enough.

Not when the other tank actually requires a good player to play.

So if I understand this exchange correctly, you assert that pld/nin can not control hate, nullify and mitigate damage, self-heal and equip haste get if a ninja is dedicated?

[WishMaster3K]

Re: This job is too easy.

He might've been responding to BP.

[Raitox]

Re: This job is too easy.

I was. There are many fights where my NIN/DRK reaches the enmity cap much more quickly than a Paladin.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: This job is too easy.

I will agree that NIN does feel rather lacking in the Job Ability department. Its a complaint I do have about the job, but at the same time, I don't think its something in this game that needs a priority fix.

[Raitox]

Re: This job is too easy.

SE said they were going to do this last year, stating plans to boost the desire to use PLD for tanking because they didn't want NIN dominating tanking. This whole argument about NIN not getting the love anymore is silly.

I think some people in this thread have forgotten a few things about PLD, or they just were not around during the time when PLD was the gimp tank job of this game. After NIN was introduced and the tanking ability was discovered that's all people wanted for tanking. PLD was my first job to 75 a long time ago and I remember when I was the 'back up tank' for everything because NIN was prefered. I won't lie either, PLD from 2004 was pathetic. We took a ridiculous amount of damage, our abilities were next to useless, and the job was an MP sponge.

Now the roles are reversed and I can't say I feel sorry for NIN, even though I don't play PLD that much anymore. NIN still have options that PLD will never have, like being able to tank and DD. SE said they wanted to reduce the dominance of NIN tanks, and that's what they've done. If you want to be a badass NIN tank and show people otherwise, no one is stopping you. But complaining about a job that was supposed to be the best tank in the game getting all the attention for tanking or being too easy is just... silly. Most of the NINs I know aren't bitter about the adjustments... they've accepted it or moved on.

You don't call dressing in a Haubergeon, justice sword, joyeuse, DD setup? NIN has NEVER gotten anything specifically. I am not most NIN's. I want something that enhances my job. Tanking 1-73, PLD is the most viable. Endgame tanking, PLD/NIN is preferred. I am constantly outdamaged by Warriors, Samurais, Dark Knights, and Monks. Ninja really isn't superior at anything. Again, I now can deem you semi-retarded saying PLD can't DD. It can, but not exactly up to snuff. It is a lower second tier DD.


EDIT:

The tiers (assuming decent gear)

Tier 1
Samurai
Warrior
Monk (I'd say MNK is pretty damn close in terms to comparing to a WAR's damage)
Dark Knight

Tier 2
Ranger
Dragoon
Ninja
Blue Mage
Paladin
Corsair

Tier 3
Puppetmaster
Dancer
Beastmaster

[Omni]

Re: This job is too easy.

well equipped bb mnks will out dd most wars with the exception of an ebody/ridill war.

[Karinya]

Re: This job is too easy.

I was. There are many fights where my NIN/DRK reaches the enmity cap much more quickly than a Paladin.

And yet you claim that PLD is too easy to play, when you can generate the same or more hate, take less damage, and deal more, by using 3 spells, 2 of which don't even cost MP, and autoattack?

I think you're refuting yourself here.


@Omni: PLD/NIN fails *hard* if you don't already have that boatload of haste gear (especially Homam, the combination of haste and enmity on the same pieces is crucial and can't be gotten anywhere else) *and* extensive haste support. PLD lacks the evasion to keep up on shadows without lots of haste, and on top of that, PLD/NIN has poor hate generating ability (especially when you spend time casting Utsu:Ichi). Unlike NIN's native defensive abilities (high eva, high parry, high agi), PLD's (shield, DEF bonuses and access to high DEF armor, Sentinel, Rampart, higher max HP) are all applied after shadows and won't help you keep them up at all.

And of course, Reprisal hardly benefits PLD/NIN at all - shields with or without Reprisal can't block while you have shadows, if you're even using one instead of dual wielding; and if your shadows are down, a shield block (even if you get one) is unlikely to protect your recast since (a) some damage gets through, and (b) you have only sub-leveled skill to resist interruption with. (On the other hand, Reprisal would probably benefit PLD/DNC a lot - lots of shield blocks + Shield Mastery = lots of TP - but despite PLD/DNC's excellent endurance, I don't know if anyone has made it into a worthwhile *tanking* build for either merit or HNM.)

When you do manage to make PLD/NIN succeed it plays much more like a NIN than like a PLD - you're just using flash where a NIN/DRK would use stun. Higher defense and HP give you a bit of a safety net against spike-damage kills, but lower evasion and parry make your sustained damage taken still higher than a full NIN.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: This job is too easy.

Oh God, he's using Tiers.

Watch out folks, that's irrefutable right there.

But this, I don't blame you. People have become so elitist that it was unovoidable.

I just know that it depends on the player, and nothing is set in stone. All "Tiering" systems are constructing according to a "Best Ever" scenario.

In a PT I parsed, one of the DRKs (73ish Acc) greatly outperformed behind the RNG, and the second DRK had 93ish Acc, but still fell behind in overrall damage compared to the WAR that had 86% Acc.

And the WAR was tanking the Colibri, so he wasn't DDing all the time. Between the DRK's Abs-Acc spells getting reflected detrimentally onto the WAR, the lack of food, and the stealing of TP, I'm shocked he still won the parse.

I'm just saying.. Tiers aren't the end-all be-all for an argument.

Just like how there are certain NINs that can do some sick damage (I'm talking about constantly pushing out Blade: Jin for 1k).

[Raitox]

Re: This job is too easy.

I am not refuting my self. PLD/NIN is waaay safer. If shadows are down, you have shield blocks and gear with naturally higher defense. As for NIN/DRK, I have my physical defense gear but if I'm not going to last long. NIN/DRK requires much more attention to detail. Reprisal makes the "Oh shit, shadows down" even easier. Pretty much instant cast, shield block boost.

[Armando]

Re: This job is too easy.

and if your shadows are down, a shield block (even if you get one) is unlikely to protect your recast since (a) some damage gets through, and (b) you have only sub-leveled skill to resist interruption with.

Minor nitpick: You're forgetting a wonderful thing called Shield Mastery.

[Omni]

Re: This job is too easy.

@Omni: stuff.

Yes, most stuff fails hard if you arent geared well. In my previous posts before last regarding pld/nin, I'm assuming you're dedicated with pld/nin. IE: homam, af2 body, career pld that merits mainly for pld.

Saying that a run of the mill pld/nin fails hard is pretty obvious. Perhaps, I'll be more clear next time.

In a previous ls, there was 1 pld/nin in decked out gear. We had some sub tanks, maybe a nin or two to kite stuff but that's all we needed for anything. He straight tanks just about everything and we didnt have any zergling drks either so its always a decent length fight.

I'd have to disagree about hate generation on pld/nin. It's not the strongest, but imo its strong enough to allow your melee to do its thing. I do agree that pld/nin does play more like nin than pld but whatever it plays like it doesnt matter. It's the most efficient all around tank right now.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: This job is too easy.

.. and if your shadows are down, a shield block (even if you get one) is unlikely to protect your recast since (a) some damage gets through, and (b) you have only sub-leveled skill to resist interruption with.

Only part of your post I had a problem with. Shield Mastery makes it so that if we're casting and we block, we don't get interrupted. That's part of the reason why, for Utsusemi, PLDs should focus on Recast first, then Shield Blocking in any open spaces.
______________________________
NVM, Armando Ninja'd himself there.

And Rai, I just can't believe you're complaining, expecially not when NINs get a shit ton of Damage%- gear. We had a NIN tank Faust and he was taking damage in the 30-50 range, if he got hit at all.

Rukenshin's screenshots of getting hit for 15 damage, consistently, must not mean much to you.

Sometimes, NINs have more gear than RDMs to swap in and out. PLD don't have a lot of nifty and varied gear choices. We have a handful of sets and a bunch of Skills.

Two opposite ends of the spectrum for the same result.

[Raitox]

Re: This job is too easy.

"PLD can stand in one spot, smoke a cigerette with an angry mob on him, not die AND get MP for it! Either they don't know what to do with NIN, don't care, or both."

If there are two tanks they damn well better be equal. With the Iron Ram set, PLD's get armor that is obviously made for PLD/NIN tanking. What do Ninjas get ? Nothing.