This job is too easy.

[Kaickul]

Re: This job is too easy.

I believe, though I could be wrong, that the whole thing was created because PLD has gotten some serious love from SE in the last year. Almost every update had something for PLD, and the OP was stating how they were making it easier for PLDs to tank.

SE said they were going to do this last year, stating plans to boost the desire to use PLD for tanking because they didn't want NIN dominating tanking. This whole argument about NIN not getting the love anymore is silly.

I think some people in this thread have forgotten a few things about PLD, or they just were not around during the time when PLD was the gimp tank job of this game. After NIN was introduced and the tanking ability was discovered that's all people wanted for tanking. PLD was my first job to 75 a long time ago and I remember when I was the 'back up tank' for everything because NIN was prefered. I won't lie either, PLD from 2004 was pathetic. We took a ridiculous amount of damage, our abilities were next to useless, and the job was an MP sponge.

Now the roles are reversed and I can't say I feel sorry for NIN, even though I don't play PLD that much anymore. NIN still have options that PLD will never have, like being able to tank and DD. SE said they wanted to reduce the dominance of NIN tanks, and that's what they've done. If you want to be a badass NIN tank and show people otherwise, no one is stopping you. But complaining about a job that was supposed to be the best tank in the game getting all the attention for tanking or being too easy is just... silly. Most of the NINs I know aren't bitter about the adjustments... they've accepted it or moved on.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: This job is too easy.

I definitely remember.

Back in the stoneages, when I was still a fledgling RDM, PLDs didn't even have Auto-Refresh.

Hell, 6k/hr was Godly, and the only way we usually achieved that was NIN tank + Arrowburn Setup.

Roaming PTs were all the rage. (Notice how no one roams anymore? They just let BRDs pull till they're blue in the face. That's for another topic though..)

You either got a few MNKs and went to KRT, or you got a some other jobs and you went to Deco Weapons. Even back then, /resting for MP was lame, and BLMs and PLDs just slowed the PT down.

PLD shines from 10-72.

It took me forever to get to 75, and I stuck with a PUPx2 WHM no Refresh setup because I was tired of being stuck on 74 for a MONTH. I have to use campaign to get an EXP buff, because no one in their right mind wants me to use PLD instead of RDM for merit.

[Prons]

Re: This job is too easy.

But let me just say this, as a War.

At least you can still tank effectively.

This.

I don't play melee (so why am I here? O' the Prons) but I find it the "classic" tank job becomes worse at tanking as it goes on. It'd be like if THF got worse at DD or if WHM got worse at healing magic.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: This job is too easy.

It'd be like if THF got worse at DD or if WHM got worse at healing magic.

Were you trying to be sarcastic? When was the last time you played the game?

[Taskmage]

Re: This job is too easy.

It's kindof a broken comparison because thf's primary role is enmity control, at which it is significantly better in higher level ranges than it ever was before. I'd have said mnk instead of thf in that sentence.

A lot of people would say that whm's desirability as a healer drops off considerably as it goes up in levels, but it's not nearly as sharp or absolute a drop as war's tanking desirability experiences. Btw, SE put that counterstance-like JA on war allegedly to make them better as a tank. Has that panned out at all?

[Intensity]

Re: This job is too easy.

Make Utsu: Ni level 38 instead of 37. Poof, Ninja exclusivity fixed. Next flame-war in 3....

[Andrinor]

Re: This job is too easy.

A lot of people would say that whm's desirability as a healer drops off considerably as it goes up in levels, but it's not nearly as sharp or absolute a drop as war's tanking desirability experiences. Btw, SE put that counterstance-like JA on war allegedly to make them better as a tank. Has that panned out at all?

Not enough of one. I'm in a casual static with a WAR tank at 61, and we have a THF to help with hate. Even with that, our WAR is trying to /NIN and it just doesn't work well even with the new JA. Having only Ichi will automatically make you mitigate less damage than a NIN because keeping shadows up is too difficult. Having no Cure spells automatically makes you more of an MP sink. It's workable because we MAKE it work, but it's definitely not on par with either other job. I'd almost rather have a SAM/WAR tanking with Seigan/Third Eye than a WAR/NIN at that level tbh.

[Intensity]

Re: This job is too easy.

Most of the NINs I know aren't bitter about the adjustments... they've accepted it or moved on.

I only ask for one thing, give us god damn Jubaku: Ni already. As an aside, I'd be really happy if they oust the mechanic that makes losing Shadows lose accumulated Hate as well but that's just dreamin'.

And also in regards to the quoted above, all the Ninja's I know are just buying up TP burn gear, most of them are glad not to be forced to MT 24/7 now. I actually get to take RNG to crap now because people want a PLD for the MT. =P

[Raitox]

Re: This job is too easy.

Um, which server are you on where PLD can get 1/10 the invite rate of a NIN? Or get invited to do anything at endgame without an Aegis and crapload of haste gear?

PLD has a worse reputation than PUP. They can keep hate - until they run all the healers out of MP and die. Then you get a NIN and win the fight. I wish I could say this viewpoint is wrong and it's just player stupidity, but NIN really is that much better. Unless you can afford to pack in 2-3x more support to keep the PLD alive, you might as well just take the DD that's also an invulnerable supertank. Sure, a few more of your BLMs will probably commit suicide because of the lower hate ceiling, but that won't threaten the group as a whole the way a tank that (gasp) *takes damage* would.

The two main functions of a tank are to hold hate, and to take less damage. PLD is slightly better at one. NIN is miles better at the other (which is also the one that matters more in HNMs and other endurance fights). When people say defense is "broken" they don't mean it reduces HNM hits to 0 - defense is the bad kind of broken, utsusemi and haste are the good kind of broken. (Good for the player that has them, not for the game as a whole.)

And of course in merit, having a tank that's also a DD is a huge advantage. So the job that was designed as a DD but became a supertank by accident is vastly preferred to the job that was designed to sacrifice offense for defense (and still takes more damage).

Speaking of merits, NINs can improve their damage through merits and hold more hate. What can a PLD merit to stop taking damage? Shield skill and enemy crit just aren't getting the job done. (Either can merit enmity, if they don't have other jobs that would be hosed by doing so.)


If your main beef is that /NIN gets too much of NIN - I agree, I'd actually like to see Utsu:Ni be a level or two higher and therefore non-subbable. I don't know wtf SE was thinking to give such a ludicrously powerful spell to *anyone*, let alone everyone through SJ. But that's the kind of radical change they never, ever make, so we're pretty much stuck with it. The brokenness of Utsu (especially subbed, and especially when combined with haste) has been obvious for years; if SE intended to do anything they'd have done it by now, I think.

Ironically, if Utsu had originally had the recast time of Reprisal (or for that matter if it had been level 61), then we wouldn't be having this conversation; NIN would still be the DD/puller/enfeebler it was designed to be, and /NIN wouldn't be that great. (Of course most post-RoZ content would have to have been designed under the assumption that players would usually take damage from attacks.) Instead it's - what was the term, super fantastic? - and took over the game.

Come to Alexander, then. I never waited more than 30 mins. for invites to 75. At burn levels, my rep as a DD PLD already preceeded me. And yes, I believe that making Utsusemi Ni being subable killed SE's will to give NIN anything beneficial to tanking or dealing damage.

I believe, though I could be wrong, that the whole thing was created because PLD has gotten some serious love from SE in the last year. Almost every update had something for PLD, and the OP was stating how they were making it easier for PLDs to tank.

I am not saying I agree or disagree. I am just saying this is what I believe started it.

Winner.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: This job is too easy.

If you have both NIN and PLD at End-game calibur status, and can even consider working your way towards an Aegis, why the fuck are you complaining?

[Raitox]

Re: This job is too easy.

Because Ninja has gotten no job abilities, nothing to enhance any aspect of the job. And yes, it matters because other DD's (SAM) are getting buffed like crazy, PLDs are as well.. getting really easy to tank. And I'm sick of new PLD's in my ls getting all cocky because they tanked Fafnir (when in reality, they did at the cost of our WHM's curing them literally every second).

[Ziero]

Re: This job is too easy.

This.

I don't play melee (so why am I here? O' the Prons) but I find it the "classic" tank job becomes worse at tanking as it goes on. It'd be like if THF got worse at DD or if WHM got worse at healing magic.

I know this is supposed to be a facetious comment, but it's just a horribly incorrect comparison. Both Thf and Whm have gotten some nice boosts to Dmg dealing and healing ability/endurance over the last few years.

It's kindof a broken comparison because thf's primary role is enmity control, at which it is significantly better in higher level ranges than it ever was before. I'd have said mnk instead of thf in that sentence.

A lot of people would say that whm's desirability as a healer drops off considerably as it goes up in levels, but it's not nearly as sharp or absolute a drop as war's tanking desirability experiences. Btw, SE put that counterstance-like JA on war allegedly to make them better as a tank. Has that panned out at all?

I would have to disagree that a Thf's primary role was ever enmity control. TA was an attack that added dmg while protecting the Thf more then something made to assist the hate of the tank. And it's only recently with Accomp/Collab that Thf can truely play with hate values. But even still, it's far from enough to make it the primary role of a Thf. Not saying I would object to getting more abilities to manipulate hate as opposed to buffing my Dmg, as I really do enjoy shifting and working hate when I can, it's just that I was never "needed" to control hate unless the tank sucked hardcore. Which ironically, I always prefered to work with Plds pre 60 because I always knew things would line up correctly for when I went for SaTa.

And the War JA is nice, but it doesn't directly solve War's major tanking defect. That being damage mitigation. Currently War's best abilities to reduce and negate damage all come from subbing other jobs. A system that relegates War down to being a third or even fourth (and to be completely honest, I'm being real generous with that rating) ranked tank. Until they get a natural ability that can reduce or negate the damage they take for the majority of the time, War will struggle as a tank.

Not enough of one. I'm in a casual static with a WAR tank at 61, and we have a THF to help with hate. Even with that, our WAR is trying to /NIN and it just doesn't work well even with the new JA. Having only Ichi will automatically make you mitigate less damage than a NIN because keeping shadows up is too difficult. Having no Cure spells automatically makes you more of an MP sink. It's workable because we MAKE it work, but it's definitely not on par with either other job. I'd almost rather have a SAM/WAR tanking with Seigan/Third Eye than a WAR/NIN at that level tbh.

To be honest, War/Nin only works with Ni or with a voke partner. And that's how it always been. And /nin actually works against the new JA because it won't proc with Shadows up, and I believe it won't proc with Third Eye up either(which /Sam is a much better Defensive sub imo until ni). The real strength of Retaliate comes from subbing /Dnc, as it's best feature is it's increase in TP gain. Combine that with natural cures and a secondary voke and /Dnc has worked it's way to being the best tanking sub for war. Add in the Acc bonus along with some of the debuffs, and a War can throw on some more Def gear in place of Acc stuff without hurting their TP gain too much. However, it's still not enough to tank anything bigger then a lower EXP mob without a proper support setup as far as I know.

The biggest shame here is that I really don't want to lvl Dnc...but it's just too good to not have it availible to sub ._.

[Taskmage]

Re: This job is too easy.

Because Ninja has gotten no job abilities, nothing to enhance any aspect of the job. And yes, it matters because other DD's (SAM) are getting buffed like crazy, PLDs are as well.. getting really easy to tank. And I'm sick of new PLD's in my ls getting all cocky because they tanked Fafnir (when in reality, they did at the cost of our WHM's curing them literally every second).

So wait, it's way too easy to tank with pld now but your LS plds are still crappy tanks?

[Raitox]

Re: This job is too easy.

I'm saying the tools are there to make it easy.

[BurningPanther]

Re: This job is too easy.

I'm saying the tools are there to make it easy.

Isn't that a good thing?