Paladin Blink Tanking

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Until recently I've always enjoyed playing Paladin the way it was meant to be played, as a blood tank. Normally PLD/WAR as Default, resorting to PLD/RDM or PLD/BLU for more super tanking or soloing. However after being in a real endgame shell for a little bit now I've come to realize that there are times where my stubborness to Blood tank will do nothing but bring down the LS in situations where Blink tanking is absolutely necessary.

I never really grasped the concept of blink tanking or how to keep shadows up between Ichi and Ni because the 2nd i dinged 37NIN i was done i used Utsu:Ni and said goodbye to my PT. I never used PLD/NIN since then, well i do, but its very situational, VERY situational, and i think im doing it completely wrong because i cant keep shadows up for the life of me.

Although I see PLD/NINs flawlessly blink tanking like they were Ninjas.

So i was wondering, how do you blink tank as PLD/NIN, i know Flash is really helpful for recasting Shadows, but other than that im at a loss, i usually just hope i shield block while im recasting Utsusemi.

Thanks for the advice

P.S. And right now my only haste gear is a swift belt and Walmart turban until i can snag me a couple Homan pieces.

[Sevv]

Re: Paladin Blink Tanking

Well basically the main thing about blink tanking is practice, simple and unhelpful from a forum aspect, it is the best advice you can get. If I was you Selphiie I would take my Pld/Nin into Campaign Battles an tank some of the mobs and get use to the play style.

You are going to hate me for this, but gear swaps are huge for Pld/Nin. You want haste gears for utsu with a mix of shield skill. Also Flash is key for Ichi cast, casting ichi on your last ni shadow. If you want anymore info let me know, or check the guide im working on will be up on Limit Break Radio.

[DakAttack]

Re: Paladin Blink Tanking

There's nothing to it, really. My favorite trick is the early Utsu:Ichi cast so the recast is ready once the pull arrives, but I'm not sure how well that works in burn parties. After that you're just timing casts in between the enemy's attacks.

Flash was only ever useful for hate managment. The blind effect rarely had any effect.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Paladin Blink Tanking

I'm rusty at counting Utusemi's remaining copy images, so I like going from Ichi to Ichi. XD Saving Ni for when I'm putting up copy images while under fire, and recasting Ichi over Ichi whenever I get a break so I'd have full three images before I'm facing threat again. If I have to cast Ichi under the guns, I try to toss up a Flash beforehand.

For Ichi over Ni, I hover over my icon while watching the cast progress bar, hoping I don't accidentally get rid of Protect while trying to cast Ichi over Ni. (So embarrassing... >_<; )

That's in exp/merit party, though; not taking my PLD to endgame without more preparation.

From what I can tell observing my endgame/event LS, we normally have two PLD/NIN's at once, and when copy images are down and Ni is not up, they rely on:
1. Their toughness to survive,
2. Cures from each other, and
3. Our vigilant WHMs.

In short, teamwork.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Re: Paladin Blink Tanking

Great Gear helps PLD/NIN tanking ALOT.

Like I don't see much hope with Purple Paladins with Knightly Mantles and Durandals being very good at PLD/NIN tanking. So until i obtain key pieces of gear in order to effectively tank as PLD/NIN i will be doing the majority of endgame as BRD. However, its very very difficult for me to grasp this concept of blink tanking, because gear doesn't make the player, Player skill also takes play. So even with Godly gear, you can still be the worst PLD ever.

So basically i tried PLD/NIN for the first time in a real situation an Ashu Talif BCNM, and i have to say, if it werent for debuffs from the mages like Slow and Blind, i would have totally been eating Ashu Talif floor.

Feel free to give me tips, but what happened was, i started the fight with Utsusemi:Ni up. When i saw my last shadow go down i would flash the mob and immediately hit my Utsusemi:Ichi macro. With an luck Ni would be back up by the time i lost my Ichi shadows, if not i would stun with Shield Bash until Ni got back up. if i was having interupption problems i would throw up Rampart, and if both shadow timers were down i would hit Sentinel and keep myself alive until i coudl recast shadows, it was reallly really sloppy and a huge MP sink on my part, only because i still don't have the skill or knowledge to effectively Blink tank, but hey, we all gotta start somewhere. Any advice?

P.S Only haste gear i had on was Walmart turban and Swift belt. I stacked Shield skill, Torque, Buckler earring, AF1 Legs, so i could rely more on Shield Blocks so my Utsusemi casting wouldn't be interrupted.

[Tickmeoff]

Re: Paladin Blink Tanking

This is just theory, but I think it would be better to start with Ichi. Ichi can overwrite itself but it can't overwrite Ni, so if you use Ichi well before the fight and the recast is already up, you can go Ichi -> Ichi -> Ni.

[Celeal]

Re: Paladin Blink Tanking

Then are more than one way to blink tank, I am not sure how others blink tank...

When I exp. as NIN/WAR, I count shadows by looking at the chat log window. For NIN main job Ni has 4 shadows (for /NIN Ni has 3 shadows).

So for NIN/WAR, I count when blinking: When Ni is active -> blink -> count 1 ... -> blink -> count 2.... -> blink -> count 3 !!!! -> pay attention at mob's attack timing, and prepare for Ni -> Ichi transition....
Then it is Ichi -> Ni ----- in this phase usually looking for the disappearance of the Ichi Icon is enough, unless the mob is really nasty ----- then back to Ni -> Ichi ... rinse and repeat.

Added: For Ni -> Ichi I mean cancel the last Ni shadows while casting Ichi.

[Lmnop]

Re: Paladin Blink Tanking

the main thing about blink tanking is practice, simple and unhelpful from a forum aspect, it is the best advice you can get.

Wow, Sevv. This is incredibly poetic for a video game forum.

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As /nin, I think most people - under "tanking duress" situations - will always favor starting with Ichi's. If you have all the time in the world before X hard dude, you want to have a fresh 3 Ichi shadows and both recasts ready, of course. And you always use Ichi as priority. With 25-45% Haste (which you'd better have for anything you'd be tanking...), tanking with just Ichi is possible. Especially if the mob can be debuffed (Carnage Elegy, I'm looking at you). As a Warrior, I try to use :Ni as a safety net. It's just 3 shadows worth of time to get Ichi back up (admittedly, it's been so long since anyone let me tank as WAR that I've fallen to merit mentality -- :NI onry and swing more axes).

As a PLD, you have that as well as your Shield Mastery and more importantly: Flash. You will probably develop a routine and become f'n awesome because pld/nin has so many toys. But I might suggest trying to develop that perspective of ":Ni is just for when I can't keep :Ichi up any longer" to try to sharpen your timing and ability.

Btw, if you can get Stoneskin from another job, Sentinel will really increase the lifespan of it. Knowing that X mob will hit for 2-400/swing, popping Sentinel will make that Stoneskin last long enough to get a cast off. Not that I can think of too many practical applications to that knowledge... just a nice little synergy.

[assumedvigilance]

Re: Paladin Blink Tanking

if i as a mnk can blink tank at 75 anyone can... and i'm awefull at it... well mostly awefull due to not paying attention or trying to ready a ws or pop one job ability or other, but i can do it. it just takes pratice and patience...

[Sevv]

Re: Paladin Blink Tanking

There is also blink tanking for merits, which you don't really need to worry about getting well raped. When you come into Pld/Nin tanking your not doing it because you want to chain mobs, you are doing it because tanking it with your face will get you killed quick, so taking hits is not acceptable, and as a monk you don't have to worry about keeping hate, infact you want to get rid of hate. The change is huge when you have to worry about tp moves/hate/not tanking with your face.

[assumedvigilance]

Re: Paladin Blink Tanking

you do have a point. i can see where slephie is coming from, even with the difference in jobs. i did not like lvling nin, once i got lvl 37 i was done with it. i did mnk/war till 75 when ppl started asking me to change to /nin. i did and learned how to put up with it but i am garabage at it... but if i can save the party a bit of mp with its use then, i suppose it is worth it.

[ItachiKujata]

Re: Paladin Blink Tanking

the key is really to be aware of how many shadows you have left and how much time you have on the timers... the more you practice, the more you'll get the hang of it and once you get more haste gears, it'll be even easier.

One tip that might help you is changing the color of the text when you lose a shadow, I forget which one that is but if you change the color so something bright that you can easily see, then it might help in counting.

Try starting out with Ichi first and then recasting Ichi when you have 1 shadow left, this almost always guarantees you to get Ichi up. Then just overwrite that with Ni when applicable. Ni you usually can cast when all shadows are down but Ichi you really need to cast with at least one shadow up. I find it hard sometimes on PLD because of all the other stuff you have to worry about like flashing, curing and other JAs.

Also, some mobs just attack too fast and you'll be left without shadows alot... you just have to do your best and with good support you'll be fine. Haste and double march can do wonders for your recasts so try to get those as often as you can...

[Hankthetank]

Re: Paladin Blink Tanking

I assume you are talking about HNM tanking. If this is the case the real key to /nin tanking is the support.

Haste spell is a must, at least 1 march, and defiantely elegy/slow on the HNM. Properly buffed and the mob properly debuffed, blinking tanking becomes very feasible. Unlink Ninjas, Paladin have alot of difficulty in blinking tanking without ALOT of proper support.

Some advice:

1. Count your shadows downward. 3 > 2 > Recast Ichi. It's not a big deal, but since many career tanks end up leveling ninja at some point, learning to count downards will save you alot of headaches in the future. As a Nin main, counting down means I am never in a situation wondering if I just casted Ni or Ichi? and do I have 1 or 2 shadows left?

2. Learn the HNM's TP moves. For example Fafhogg has Hurricane wing which is AoE and wipes shadows. This means you should start casting Ichi the second you see him ready this move in the chat log. The AoE will wipe your exsisting shadows but due to your head start you will have a fresh set up before his next attack round.

3. Flash isn't going to make a HNM miss often, as such it is not a reliable tool for getting shadows back up, flash is a hate tool and should be spamed to maintain hate.

4. Shield is your life line. What is going to allow you to get shadows back up is shield blocks. With a good shield skill build you can get a 50% block rate on mobs like Fafnir, thats a 50% change to get shadows back up. I have a shield skill macro that equips all my shield skill gear. Blinking is ok, but don't blink when you are low on HP. I have a macro that equips my all my shield skill gear that I use when my shadows are down, but I won't use the macro and blink if my HPs are in the damger zone and I know a big cure is comming. Blinking when you are in the red is asking to get killed.

5. Learn the timing of the mob's attacks and adjust your casting accordingly. When casting Icho over Ni, try to time your casting so that the Mob will swing during the first 25% of your casting. This gives you enough time to cancel Ichi before 50% if by chance that attack doesn't take your last shadow.

6. There is delay after you get interuppted before you can cast again. I see many Paladins panic and keep hitting their Ni macro over and over casting it as soon as the game allows which leads them to getting interuppted again and again. When you get interuppted, don't panic and just spam your Ni macro. Take a hitif you have to, but wait for the next window cast. Spamming you ni macro when shadows are down leads to that string of interuptions we have all seen.

7. You cannot get interupted during the first 20% or the last 20% of your casting. When casting Ichi, try to time it so you begin casting right befoe the mob attacks. This way he will hit you during the first 20% of your casting where you will not be interupted. Even if slow/elegy wears, very few mobs attack fast enough to before the last 20% of your casting where once again you cannot be interrupted.

8. Work with your co tanks. HNM tanking is all about team work. For tanks this means sharing hate with your co-tank. When two tanks keep their hate levels very close to each other the second you take a hit, the enmity loss for that hit will cause the Mob to change its attention to your co-tank. By myself, I get 12 shadows a minute, between me and my co-tank we get 24. Not many mobs that can attack faster than 24 times a minute.

Well thats all I can think of now, hopefully you will find some of that usefull.

Sincerely,
Hankthetank

[MogKnight]

Re: Paladin Blink Tanking

As a PLD/NIN (also as a Taru, which makes my job even more hectic), I find myself doing 3 main things:

1. Cooperating with the co-tank, which can lead to competing at times.
2. Main healing the alliance.
3. Keeping my own Taru Behind alive.

What you will find to be very important is how your party or alliance treats you as what you are. It really depends on what your alliance is accustomed to, especially in this day and age where PLD/NIN, NIN/DRK, and RDM/NIN become your primary tanks for a lot of things.

However, I will say that gear for PLD/NIN isn't too much of a hassle to get, it just requires a bit of time in some cases and depends on how well your end game LS is doing. Now, this might not be the standard now (mainly because I haven't really played PLD for awhile due to having my obsession going towards SAM and BLM at the moment) but I'm sure its a guideline for what you can look into.

This gear set is what I use for general straight tanking.

Main: Enmity Paddle +1
Sub: Koenig
Ammo: Bibiki Shell
Head: Aegishjalmr/Haste Turban
Neck: Harmonia/Parade/Shield
Ear: Pigeon/Ethereal
Body: AF1+1
Hands: Homam
Rings: BQR/Herc
Back: High Breath/Resentment
Belt: Swift/Warwolf
Legs: Homam
Feet: AF1+1

Now I lack a Valor Surcoat and various other gear but this set (with a few tweeks) should give you some desired results.

The Aegishjalmr can be replaced by Iron Ram Head I believe from Bastok [S] with Allied notes. However, keep either the Enmity Head on or the Haste Turban.... but don't swap the head too much, might make some healers angry.
The neck piece is to be switched around. Harmonia for any enmity based stuff (Cure/Flash) or even just to keep on when fully engaged. Parade should be for idle or when you don't need Harmonia on. Shield should be for when you need to land Ichi.
The earrings can probably be changed based on your play style. Loq. Earring from Limbus (75 Anct Beastcoins) is a good alternative for MP and for a little bit of recast/cast down time.
The Body.... Valor Surcoat would probably be best... there might be other things in this update to look into though.
The rings can be switched around based on what you're doing. Mermaid Ring works too if you don't want to use BQR.
Belt is to be switched around based on what you're doing. Now, if you want to use Flash for your Swift Belt or your Warwolf, that is up to you and what you're wearing.

As for other situations such as kiting, use W. legs if you have them and Askar Feet, they're pretty good for kiting purposes. As for what you can switch around for better or for easier access...

-Wivre Shield would be a good alternative if you need some enmity
-The Enmity Portion of the Head can be Iron Ram Helm or Bahamut's Mask. IRH is much easier to obtain.
-The earrings can be a mixture of HP rings to Hades to Loq to Ethereal. Again, based on your playstyle.
- Body, try to upgrade to AF1+1 as it would be the least you could do for that slot.
- Use Homam Hands as it is probably the best, followed by Askar Hands (Nyzul), followed by AF2 Gloves. Use the AF2 Gloves for Shield Bash macro swapping though, may as well, right?
-Instead of Warwolf, buy a Trance Belt if you want more enmity.
-Feet use AF1+1 for shielding. If you're not using your shield for blocking, use Askar or something else that can benefit that slot.

Along with what was said, here are my tips:

1. Learn to go from Ichi to Ni. Spend stacks and stacks getting the timing down if you have to. This will be very important.

2. The new spell in the last patch "Reprisal" is very nice to deal some damage back to the mob... but, it is also VERY HELPFUL in getting your shadows back up.

3. Sentinel will be your best friend. Not only will it help you when your shields are down but it can also help you reset your foundation of hate. Cure IV someone if you can during Sentinel.

4. Shield Bash can now stun at a very high percentage. Don't forget about it but it might not save you for a shadow recast.

5. Have multiple sets of gear. Enmity, Haste and a "ohshi-" set. Though... that last set might only be useful for situations where you can't control your character and your shadows are down for an extended period of time (aka. Terrorized or Petrified).

6. If you can get to 22 second Recast on Utsusemi: Ni, you're at haste cap. Try to measure how much haste gear you need on at certain situations. If you manage to have haste and 2 Marches on you, you can put some enmity gear on and still be close to that haste cap.

7. This might take a bit of an effort on your WHM part but... try to not make them heal you to full all the time. HP you heal is Hate you gain. But at the same time, try not to do anything that would freak out the WHM... they'll jump on that Cure V macro really fast and there goes your hate opportunity.

8. If you want, make an HP Swap Set where you equip gear that forces you to lose HP and then gear that gives you HP, then cure yourself, then reset back to your normal gear. Helpful for situations where you are are reduced to just spamming Flash on the monster and the other tank has much more hate than you.

9. You will get hit. It will happen, you will take a lot of damage, it will hurt. The idea of /NIN is to negate that damage and to negate spike hate drop at the same time. There will be situations where this is unavoidable but note that it all depends on what you have and what your party is doing. Slow/Elegy/Haste/Paralyze/Earth Shot with Slow/etc can help you do your job better so if your party or alliance isn't doing this especially on an HNM... :3

And that's really it... oh one more piece of advice~

You really don't need enmity merits to be able to tank well. They help but are not really required especially if you ever another job.

[Karinya]

Re: Paladin Blink Tanking

The mention of just spamming flash gives me an idea... PLD/RDM and NIN/DRK can both benefit (hatewise) from casting spells that they don't really expect to land, but will still generate enmity (sleep, bind, etc.). Can a PLD/NIN do the same thing with ninjutsu? I would expect Kurayami to work the best if anything, but other enfeebles might get some hate too?