Midgame

[Armando]

Re: Midgame

It also does not distinguish between melee hits and WS--I lumped it all together when I wrote "100% improvement"--whatever the combination of melee and WS that is.

Ah, that's right. I forgot about that. That still doesn't address the possibility of extra skillchains/MBs, higher damage from the other DDs due to a higher hate line, and higher EXP chains though.

Since you do have the more accurate and damaging WS capability, what is the percentage of your damage from Vorpal Blade, anyway? I would suspect the lion's share of your output is still the regular hits--increasing the damage from WS probably has a smaller effect than increasing the "DoT" aspect of your damage game.

Well, my damage is more or less 2/3 DoT and 1/3 WS. This is both what you'd expect in theory (with a parsed average of 40 damage a hit and 300 damage a WS, and needing ~15 hits post-WS to get back up to 100 assuming no extra TP gain, that's 600 damage during the TP building phase and 300 from WS) and what my parsed total melee/WS damages say.

[Lmnop]

Re: Midgame

do me a favor, Armando. Tally up what you lose with said basic DD items. What's our "Opportunity Cost" so to speak?

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Midgame

Opportunity cost meaning what? I think I understand what you're saying, Lumnop, but I believe it was addressed earlier that the tradeoff from switching to DD from Turtle is minuscule, or marginal at best, and it is offset by the fact that kills are reasonably faster.

At least I hope so. I have soft Taru skin, so I'm still a little wary. But as I've said before, if it doesn't work out, I can macro in the Turtle gear and just put in DD gear on lower-end mobs.

I feel that a lot of a DD PLD's job is also judgment. I can't imagine having minus evasion or negative defense if I was tanking Spiders, and one of my DDs was a Move Spamming BLU that just LOVED feeding the mob TP..

Armando, I don't have a Venerer, but I have a Shikaree, and I suppose that +2 is better than nothing, although sometimes it feels a bit gimp.

And I just bought that AWESOME ring that is both Vit and Dex, so I'm gonna rock with that for a while (no harm in macroing it into my Acc build though).

[Lmnop]

Re: Midgame

Opportunity cost meaning what? I think I understand what you're saying, Lumnop, but I believe it was addressed earlier that the tradeoff from switching to DD from Turtle is minuscule, or marginal at best, and it is offset by the fact that kills are reasonably faster.

Opportunity cost meaning what you're missing out on. If you're out watching movies with your friends, the opportunity cost is an eventful night of FFXI. Because you cannot do both at the same time. In regards to this thread:

you're looking at +6 STR, +32 Attack (STR factored in), and +17-18 Accuracy (DEX factored in.)

I want to know the exact value of stats (vit, defense, enmity, mp, hp, whatever) that're being given up for those DD stats.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Midgame

doesn't address the possibility of extra skillchains/MBs, higher damage from the other DDs due to a higher hate line, and higher EXP chains though.

Nope, however...

I don't have solid proof, but it's my experience that extra damage from skillchain effect is somewhat iffy, unless a THF is closing it or someone is thoughtful enough to use a -ton Ninjtsu. SC in general has the effect of holding TP longer, which degrades the dmg/TP potential. MB is a real possibility to increase output, though, given how much monsters like to resist. Higher exp chain is possible if not taking extra damage to the point of needing MP rest. Also keep in mind that chaining is limited often more by available preys and pulling distance than by killing speed.

As for letting DD's go wilder, keep in mind that while your experience is that going the DD route let you do that better, that is not an universally shared opinion.

I was a mostly turtle PLD65 (with sole exception of SH) last night, whose party thought right after the first provoke is a great time to let lose WS's. (Sometimes before even that, when I'm a bit slow targeting the monster.)

Problem? Some, but people went into yellow HP only a handful of times (I run out of job abilities and was low on MP--fast kills with no refresher), and no one ever dropped to orange except me.

While I didn't have a suicidal DRK/WAR who went Ryanracer on me (SE + LR + Berserk + WS + ... Provoke?!) to push the boundry, I'm a little skeptical anything short of full enmity build can raise the bar all that much higher. Still, when people can already WS'ing right off the bat, how much higher do PLD's need to go?

* * *

I didn't want to go turtle last night, but we had no refresher (PLD, BLU, DRK, DRG, SMN, WHM), and the SMN was more interested in melee'ing avatars and a buff once every three battle or so than helping WHM cure for the first 85% of the fight.

Well, the SMN managed to beat Mikan (the wyvern) by a small margin, but didn't quite out do the mostly turtle PLD who was blinded often by mimicked Flash and had TP stolen by a pinkish bird...

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Midgame

Ok, I'll compare Armando's DD setup to a similarly leveled but Straight Turtle PLD

Edit:
Making a spreadsheet, too much work.

[Celeal]

Re: Midgame

....but we had no refresher (PLD, BLU, DRK, DRG, SMN, WHM)....

I would agree that go defensive takes top priority in this setup (trying to maximize the hate with minimal resource?). Those skillful tank and healer can make refresher-less party functional.

From my experience of NIN tank and depending on DoT to hold hate, melee attack takes "time" to build hate. I think a DD PLD-tank build may subject to same restriction too, to a certain extend.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Midgame

Ok, I'll compare Armando's DD setup to a similarly leveled but Straight Turtle PLD

For turtle build Lv66 or so, just modify like this:

Main: Save the Queen -> Espadon/Espadon +1
Sub: R.K. Army Shield
Ammo: Bibiki Seashell
Head: Gallant Coronet
Neck: R.G. Collar/Shield Torque -> Shield Torque/Parade Gorget
Earrings: Assault Earring + Insomnia Earring -> Mercenary/Buckler/Drone*
Body: Haubergeon full-time -> Gallant Surcoat
Hands: Gallant Gauntlets
Rings: Woodsman + Woodsman/Jelly Ring -> Hercules/Jelly/Unyielding
Back: Amemet Mantle -> Knightly/High Breath
Waist: Life Belt -> Jungle Belt (Mithra only, and usually not for exp)
Legs: Gallant Cuisses
Feet: Gallant Leggings

Food: Squid/Dorado Sushi -> Tavnazian Taco or Dorado/Bream Sushi

* I don't use Drone Earring, but have a Parrying Earring. No, I don't know why, either.

I'm probably missing quite a few different alternative pieces, but that's a reasonable start. (I'm gonna cry like a baby if Knightly Earring is a requirement for turtling.)

Anyhow, IMO, DD-hybrid PLD's should have at least some of those turtle gears/food for emergencies (hiya links), and turtle PLD's should have some of those DD gears/food for WS and when working with NIN's. (Yes, it happens once in a blue moon--can be loads of fun when it does.)

* * *
Edit:

I would agree that go defensive takes top priority in this setup (trying to maximize the hate with minimal resource?). Those skillful tank and healer can make refresher-less party functional.

Oh, it was functional enough; chain#4's easily, and I think we may have hit chain#7 once?

Would have been better if the SMN spent less time/MP trying to DD (Dark Spirit? What the heck?) and offload some healing from WHM, and other little adjustments, but this is pretty good as far as PUG's go: Two great DD's and a good WHM in one party is more than one can hope for.

Well, maybe I should say Colibris are more broken than a PLD tank without a refresher.

[Armando]

Re: Midgame

WARNING: By the time I'm done with this post, I'm sure someone will have posted between me and Lmnop.

Well, taking off a Haubergeon, R.G. Collar (assume Medieval Gorget -> Shield Torque, which I've seen people do), Spike Earring, Woodsman Ring (assume Jelly Ring is on the other slot 24/7), and Amemet Mantle, you'd have -6 STR, -32 Attack, -21-22 Accuracy. Now let's run some numbers. I'm at Lv.68. For a mob to be IT it needs to be at least 8 levels higher than me. So my enemy will be an average (non-beastman, non-crab, etc.) Lv.76 WAR/WAR mob. The mob's stats will be calculated using Studio Gobli's formulas. PLD A will be a Lv.68 Elvaan PLD/WAR wearing Lifebelt and using Espadon +1 and R.K. Army Shield. PLD B will have PLD A's gear and the above-mentioned DD gear.

Enemy
Defense: 287 after Dia II (originally 320)
VIT: 72
Evasion: 306

PLD A
Attack: 292(.5)
STR: 71 +2
Accuracy: 273

PLD B
Attack: 324(.5)
STR: 71 +8
Accuracy: 294(.5)

PLD A vs Enemy:
Melee hit: 11-46 normal, 57-92 crit
Average normal hit: 28.5
Average crit: 74.5
Hit rate: 42.5%

PLD B vs Enemy:
Melee hit: 17-47 normal, 64-94 crit
Average normal hit: 32
Average crit: 79
Hit rate: 53%

With Haste, both PLDs will do 16.48 hits/minute. Assuming a 5% crit rate...
PLD A: 215.72 damage/min, 47.63 TP/min
PLD B: 300.03 damage/min, 59.39 TP/min
DoT increase: 39%
TP speed increase: 25%

This does not factor in Sushi, or WS (obviously PLD B does more Vorpal Blades, and his Vorpal Blades are stronger.)

Heh, the numbers surprised even me. The increase is pretty substantial and this is just trading off VIT for Acc/Attack.

EDIT: Here's part II. Let's get the damage for PLD C, who is on the opposite end of the PLD spectrum from A. PLD C wears PLD B's gear, but also eats Sushi. Let's be cheap and give him Squid.

PLD C

Accuracy: 341

PLD C vs Enemy:
Melee hit: 17-47 normal, 64-94 crit
Average normal hit: 32
Average crit: 79
Hit rate: 76.5%

A vs C...
PLD A: 215.72 damage/min, 47.63 TP/min
PLD C: 433.06 damage/min, 85.73 TP/min
DoT increase: 101%
TP speed increase: 80%

Aside from the DoT increase PLD C will do almost twice as many Vorpal Blades as A and they'll also be significantly stronger than A's. The big gap in damage between A and C explains why I hold hate so much better than when I used to go turtle style.

EDIT2: Bah, forgot to take into account Double Attack. Oh well.
EDIT3: Fuck, forgot to add Attack Bonus from /WAR in there. Gaaaaah.
EDIT4: PLD B and C's damage range was lower than what it should be.

[Lmnop]

Re: Midgame

We know that these days, DDs don't do a very good job of holding back. They will WS right off the bat. In this situation, a turtle doesn't do you any good. The only ways to get hate:
-spam JAs
-wait for them to take sufficient damage for you to cure them for hate (you PLDs DO have cure <stpc> macros, RIGHT?!?? If you cannot cure others while engaged, learn how or GTFoff of PLD).

If you have a decent DD build (even if you only use it on WSs, you can swap it on whenever you don't have hate), it'll get hate pointed at you faster.

As for post #0: It may be worth noting that Defender is worth more to a PLD eating sushi than one on tacos.

I think we can all certainly agree that having both is the way to go. When you're fighting Puks outside of mamook, you'll want some DD stuff. When someone pulls a Skoffin, you may just want to have some serious defense ready.

[Vyuru]

Re: Midgame

Don't get me wrong, this is a interesting read trying to find the line between a turtle or DD build for Plds, but I have to ask, why not just invite a thief?

Most of the TA+ Shark Bites I see from thiefs do 800-1k+ damage on mobs, which is a ton of added enmity onto the tank. I've seen some interesting results from thiefs who swapped in +enmity gear for their TA, I don't know how much more hate that added vs how much more damage they would have done but it was a interesting idea nonetheless.

I'd think with a thief you could easily go with a more DD build on your paladin and still hold hate very easily, and a good thief takes care of those pesky DD who go all out before the pld can even do anything.

[Celeal]

Re: Midgame

But with a good THF, same can apply to a traditional defensive PLD tank, it also apply to NIN tank. The point is what PLD should aim for after his damage mitigration is reaching the diminish-return?

And speaking about dmg mitigration: in later exp camps, most MP-sink does not come from physical attack. For example, Curse Sphere spam by flies in Imps camp, Bomb Toss and Healing Breeze spam in Bibiki Bay, are the exp-chain breakers.

[Armando]

Re: Midgame

Vyuru: A THF isn't necessary to pull off the DD approach. DD PLD holds hate a lot better than the turtle kind (this much I guarantee.) I usually had a THF with me at some point or another in those Bibiki parties and the mob would turn to me if I so much as sneezed. Anyhow, let's correct those previous numbers for the sake of perfection...

Enemy
Defense: 287 after Dia II (originally 320)
VIT: 72
Evasion: 306

PLD A
Attack: 302(.5)
STR: 71 +2
Accuracy: 273

PLD B
Attack: 334(.5)
STR: 71 +8
Accuracy: 294(.5)

PLD C
Attack: 334(.5)
STR: 71 +8
Accuracy: 341

PLD A vs Enemy:
Melee hit: 12-46 normal, 58-92 crit
Average normal hit: 29
Average crit: 75
Hit rate: 42.5%

PLD B vs Enemy:
Melee hit: 19-47 normal, 66-94 crit
Average normal hit: 33
Average crit: 80
Hit rate: 53%

PLD C vs Enemy:
Melee hit: 19-47 normal, 66-94 crit
Average normal hit: 33
Average crit: 80
Hit rate: 76.5%

-----

PLD A: 241.17 damage/min, 52.40 TP/min
PLD B: 339.67 damage/min, 65.34 TP/min
PLD C: 490.29 damage/min, 94.31 TP/min

B vs A:
DoT improvement: 41%
TP improvement: 25%

C vs A:
DoT improvement: 103%
TP improvement: 80%

More or less the same outcome as the previous one. Although C is still up for debate since C can't eat Defense food, B's advantages over A are pretty damned hard to deny. VIT whoring won't improve your performance anywhere near that much.

EDIT: Oops! I had originally calculated PLD B's minimum PDIF as being 0.31 when it should've been 0.37 back in the previous post. That's why when I added the 10 Attack from Attack Bonus on this post it seemed to benefit B and C more. Fixing...

[Lmnop]

Re: Midgame

Itazura stopped playing? Whaaaaa

[csBahamut]

Re: Midgame

The whole reason the DD-hybrid thing works better for hate holding is because +/- HP effects (damage and cures) are the king of hate. JA's just can't keep up with the pace of hate generated by damage/curing. Where it doesn't work is when: A) You bleed hate too quickly from taking too much damage. or B) You can't hit or damage the mob. Those are cases when the only thing you can rely on for hate is cures, spells, and JAs.

When you turtle up, you're limiting your hate gain to cures, spells, and JA's. Your damage is either really low, or non-existent. With a more DD oriented build, that damage becomes another tool. With adjustments based on the mob, it could possibly become the most significant factor.

I'll use Apollyon NW as an example. I usually turtled up for bosses, since you know, their big HNM-like bosses. For the Ram boss on floor 2, I would switch to all my emnity gear, and pop defender (I use defense food for this zone). Now, since this zone gives a chest that resets all JA's, including 2hrs, people can all go ape wild. With my usual build, all my brother has to do is pop Mighty Strikes, and he'll have hate over all my JA's, flash, and cure spam. So as an experiment last run, I stayed in my DD-hybrid gear and didn't use defender (I still use def food). My DD gear gives me plenty of accuracy to do this on the normal mobs, and worked great on the boss. With the proper timing of my JA's, I was able to hold hate with damage, cures, flash, and JA's. Usually the boss will stick on my brother once he grabs hate, but this time I just used flash, and it turned back to me and stayed.

Since that worked so well, I decided to do the same test on the next boss, a giant turtle type. I usually turtle up for this guy too, but I went for more DD this time. Usually we bounce hate between me and a blink tanker, with me being the only one to hold hate near the end. This time, I held hate the whole time. Most people would think having a PLD in DD gear tank for an NM like this (long fight) with a small group to be suicidal. Instead, I helped us kill it faster, and thus MP wasn't an issue. Granted, a blink tank would be more MP efficient, but that wasn't the point. It only shows that turtling isn't always the best option.