Midgame

[Lmnop]

Re: Midgame

Even before that you can still use Tiger Stole, Beetle Earrings, and Mighty Rings to boost your Attack by 21 by Lv.24, which is no trivial amount at that level. So yeah, even at low levels it matters, it's just that post-Refresh our options open up a lot more.

Nothing about Defender. This is the 21 attack you can be wearing before anything /war even has Berserk.

The DD NINs I party with hold hate just as well as the turtle PLDs I party with.

And part of what Armando is saying is that he doesn't take much more damage. If he's voking once/mob and turning them back to him just with melee, he's doing his job. As long as the party never runs out of MP, getting hit for 6000 damage/swing doesn't matter.

[Armando]

Re: Midgame

Omni, I hold hate infinitely better DD'ing. This is, of course, something I can't prove with numbers. But the difference is as clear as night and day when you actually do it. I don't take that much more damage than a traditional PLD either because I help kill the mob so much faster. On the surface it looks like I soak up more MP because the damage per hit difference is so marked, but in the end the MP consumption is about the same, but my party will end up killing more mobs than the next dude's. If you want to be skeptical about my claim that MP consumption is about the same, I won't fault you for it. But believe me - I hold hate a lot better than a defensive PLD and the mob does die faster.

I can't really speak about merit parties. I've never been in one. I'm only up to 68 right now so I still have a few levels of EXP parties left before I can even consider a burn-style merit point party. However, the pseudo-DD thing at least works before merit parties, so don't let a few PLDs make you think it doesn't work at all.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Midgame

I'm going to go on a limb and say that both Armando and Omni are correct, mostly because the difference in their exping at the moment.

Armando, get to Burn levels and parse your data there, damnit!

But anyway, I've seen PLD/NIN in burn, and it's terrible. Their damage isn't outstanding, they can't keep hate, and they're just big, shiny, dual-wielding morons.

I think the general concensus is what Omni has been experiencing. Furthermore, it's likely that when Omni was on the way to meriting levels, most of his experience was with Turtles, and a turtle only does one thing, but does it exceptionally well- take hits.

HOWEVER, there comes a point when you have to wonder "how much DEF/VIT is too much?"

I think that's the methodology behind the "How Blood Tanking Works" thread: finding that range so all we need to do is put on as much DD gear as we can without deviating from that range, therefore, dishing out more damage without having unecessary gear that will only marginally help damage mitigation during exp (merit or otherwise) pts.

One thing I think that's weird, is that melee for the most part have all this OUTSTANDING gear, and they perform at a certain level. What caliber of gear would a PLD need to even be able to function at comparible levels...

Or POSSIBLY, they're not making usage of Macros.

I Know, I Know, I'm still in RDM mode sometimes, but macro swaps are there for a reason. I rarely go under 100 damage in my Seraph Blades, but when I do, it's because of me missing hits or there being a Def Bonus.

Maybe there are some PLDs who don't realize that they can definitely come to camp with more than one gear set?

Maybe a lot of melee don't realize that. It's not hard to be a good melee, you just need to have the right gear for the right situation. (Haste, -Damage, Accuracy, WS, Attack/STR, etc...) Macroing is your friend. I've definitely seen some DRGs that melee in the Hecatomb set.. So I'm sure that a lot of melee don't even realize they aren't stuck to just one set..

[Lmnop]

Re: Midgame

Wisharudo, I agree 1billion percent. Just being a RDM is not excuse enough to use equip swaps. I used them on Monk even! Most people are aware of them and just don't want to bother with them. Or don't like the idea and like middle ground layouts.

The thing about some DD equipment on PLD vs incredible DD equipment on DD... it's the only job of a DD. It takes a lot to take you from 40 damage/swing to 60 damage/swing. It takes a lot to take you from 75% hit rate to 90% hit rate. If I'm already @75% accuracy, +10 accuracy only gives me 5% higher accuracy. From a relative perspective, that's like a 6.7% improvement. But if you have 50% accuracy, then +5% accuracy is a +10% improvement. Confused yet? I'm not using the right terminology for this.

The point is, relative to where you were standing, some DD stuff goes a long way. A lot of PLDs parse 1-5% of a party's damage on a regular basis. I think the best I've ever seen in my time parsing PLDs is 7-9%. Going up to an average of 10-20% party damage is an obscene climb in damage.

And tell your DDs to at least buy a pair of phalanx rings to equip swap on!

[csBahamut]

Re: Midgame

It's been a while since I leveled PLD (like back in 2004). I've only got experience with 75 PLD with all the latest changes to PLD. I don't know how huge an impact they've been, but I can try to extrapolate.

First, I wish I had some good parse data, but I don't use the Windower, so running a parser is pretty much out of the question for me. So I can't give you detailed numbers.

Second, when comparing subs for parties, you have to look at the whole party, not just you. If a sub will let the whole party be more efficient, then you have an improvement. Just looking at how much damage you take/receive.

Third, the biggest advantage to switching to more DD gear is the increase in kill speed. Comparing damage/hit is what led people to turtle up in the first place. Instead of looking at damage/hit like you guys have been, you should be looking at the damage/mob the party takes. Of course, the party composition will affect this, but you can compare subs better if you have the same people when trying each sub.

Fourth: %damage to a mob is highly dependent on who the DDs are in your party, and how many you have. Again, try to keep the party members constant for a better comparison. Preferably with the DD's using the same gear each time.

PLD/NIN: When you're PLD/NIN, you're doing 1 of 2 things: 1) Tanking an HNM, so you're therefore in HP/Emnity/Haste/Specialty gear. 2) DD'ing + support. PLD/NIN is not going to be the best DD, nor can they control hate as effectively as /WAR, but they can hold hate. Just because a PLD subs NIN, doesn't mean they stop casting spells. Flash and cures help the party save MP, while also adding more offense. The only loss is that spike hate gotten from Provoke. You also can't expect /NIN to give you better hate than /WAR, because any good DD is going to pull hate off you no matter what you sub.

When trying to tank as PLD/NIN in DD gear, WSes and DoT become more important, along with flash. From my experience, this typically works best with a NIN/WAR or WAR/NIN. I've duo tanked many a WSNM with my brother's WAR, and duo tanked Hakutaku with a NIN. All as a PLD/NIN in a DD setup. My hate keeps on PAR with the other guy all the time. Of course, my brother could easily surpass me in hate by just using his Hydra Haubert. For quicker battles, like the PFC Mamool Assault, who has hate all depends on who WS'ed last.

Kuftal Tunnel crabs: I still remember these, when we'd do a distortion SC + Freeze MB. Back then, everyone turtled up as much as possible, except a few people like me. That's because people like me actually paid attention to the effects of Defender and turtling. I really didn't use defender, because I knew that the benefit was very small for using Defender. Just by not using Defender, I was only taking like 0-10 more damage, for like 5-15 more damage to the mob. Most of the time, the difference was 0 damage taken. Only the mobs with typically high attack, or mobs way too high in level, actually did more damage. One of the few reason I do actually use defender is because I can't hit, so my damage is pointless.

[Celeal]

Re: Midgame

Hmm, interesting. I am wondering how is PLD/NIN compare to NIN/WAR at lvl 70+? (I am not trying to say which job combo is better, just trying to gather more info)

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Midgame

NIN/WAR with proper gear can do some crazy things.

Enfeebling, DD and Tanking all at the same time, and when geared right, you can see them push out 800+ Jins on a constant basis.

But PLDs generally have more tools for Enmity gain, so it's a situational toss up.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Midgame

Let's play with some made up numbers. To start with, let's say a mostly Def/VIT set up PLD does about 9% of the damage overall without Defender. (I was outputing about ~10% last night, with mostly a defensive setup except Scorpion Harness, so that number isn't totally made up.)

Let's say two good melee DD's, output 33% each, plus one so-so DD, outputting about 25%. To make the calculations easier (to understand), let's pretend the monster has 1000 HP, and thus dies in exactly 60 seconds in the base case.

____dmg/min______
DD1___330 (33.0%)
DD2___330 (33.0%)
DD3___250 (25.0%)
PLD____90 ( 9.0%)
Mon. Death: 60 sec (100%; base case)

So, what if the PLD increases his DD output by 50%, from 90 dmg/min to 135 dmg/min? (I think this is fairly doable, with gear and food changes.)

____dmg/min______
DD1___330 (31.6%)
DD2___330 (31.6%)
DD3___250 (23.9%)
PLD___135 (12.9%)
Mon. Death: 57.4 sec (96%; PLD w/50% better output)

That's... Nice. But, 4% increase in kill speed is not exactly earth shattering. How about we double the output, and say PLD is very aggressively geared for DD?

____dmg/min______
DD1___330 (30.0%)
DD2___330 (30.0%)
DD3___250 (22.9%)
PLD___180 (16.5%)
Mon. Death: 55.0 sec (92%; PLD w/100% better output)

Well, 8% better kill speed is not bad at all. What if, though, the so-so DD is actually as good as other DD's? Instead of upping PLD's output, let's bring DD3 to par:

____dmg/min______
DD1___330 (30.6%)
DD2___330 (30.6%)
DD3___330 (30.6%)
PLD____90 ( 8.3%)
Mon. Death: 55.6 sec (93%; Def/VIT PLD w/3 good DD's)

As you can see, bring up one DD up to par does almost as much as doubling a PLD's output in terms of kill speed.

Oh, and if getting 8% better kill speed by doubling the PLD's output doesn't require more MP rest time, then it'd turn a 4000 exp/hour base party into a 4330 exp/hour killing machine.

The 7% better kill speed by getting DD3 up to par would only give 4296 exp/hour. ^_-

* * *

I don't know why my experience doesn't match Armando's in terms of tanking well on DD setup; it just has been easier to hold the IT monsters while turtled up. Hard to explain, but it just is.

* * *

Plus, it's hard to get proper support outside of static parties to go the DD route while still tanking.

I tried a PUG last night, and I was getting Haste, but inconsistent Regen, and no Flash from WHM. When the RDM was replaced by a BRD, he would not set up a 3 cycle buff routine to give me at least one Ballad mid battle. (Can't stand with the mages in the back, due to Incinerate.)

I could only snatch Ballads while THF was out pulling. Sometimes he'd play Ballad long before I can even get back there. Then, as soon as THF came back, he'd override my Ballad with melee buffs. -_-#

That ended up over burdening the WHM since I couldn't cure as much. Then, the idiot BRD had the audacity to run off for his "end game style puling ftw lol" and pulled more fire breathing crawlers while THF was pulling--with both me and the WHM were low on MP.

To top it off, the BRD claimed to be a PLD75, and said something like "< PLD75 not used to {Ballad} lol".

lolJerkBRD is more like it.

Anyway, the point is I don't feel very safe going DD without good support.

* * *

Heck, I don't feel very safe with that BRD, period. Three deaths while fighting with that BRD in party, zero for over two plus hours before him. (I seriously considered letting one of the crawlers he pulled beat him to a pulp, but I know the WHM was too nice, and would have cured him.)

[Celeal]

Re: Midgame

I would agree that if the backline don't know how to support, turtle up is always safer.

[Armando]

Re: Midgame

I've read on Alla that a properly-equipped PLD/NIN DD can hold his own damage-wise. Nothing amazing, but the catch is that you're also contibuting one more MP pool that can Cure, plus Flash and things like Cover.

Sorries Rena, my connection over here sucks so it'll be a while ; ; Plus I still need to finish taking NIN to 37 >_>

Edit: Somehow I didn't see that Itazura and Celeal posted above me. Itazura, how are you calculating the mob's death time?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Midgame

Itazura, how are you calculating the mob's death time?

I've normally observed in parties: Good DD's tend to get 33% (and up), so-so ones tend to be about 25% (or less), and turtle PLD tend to be 9% (or less).

Then, I made up an imaginary monster which has exactly 1000 HP, and dies in exactly 60 seconds for the "base" party setup of Good DD x1, So-so DD, PLD, others.

Then, Mon. Death = 1000 HP / (aggregate HP dmg/min)

So, for the base case, it's 1000 HP / (330 + 330 + 250 + 90) = 1 min = 60 seconds, according to the percentages I set up earlier.

Based on that, I made up a dmg/min number for each DD and PLD (330 dmg/min, 330 dmg/min, 250 dmg/min, 90 dmg/min) for the base case.

The dmg/min (both the real players or my made up ones) shouldn't change much for DD's when we adjust the PLD, so they are good to have.

Then, adjusting the PLD's output only, I feed it back to:
Mon. Death = 1000 HP / (aggregate HP dmg/min)

to get the number of minutes, which is then converted into seconds.

* * *

The important thing is not how long each setup takes to kill critters, but how much faster (percentage wise) each improved setup compared to the base.

Note that some of the number I presented have been rounded off for easier viewing, but not on the spreadsheet, so you may get a percentage more or less here and there if you do the calculations. The differences shouldn't be large, though.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Midgame

What Ifritno said is hypothetically theoritical, but I understood the spirit of the post. a PLD that contributes damage will be better than one that is just an MP Sponge..

But I'll echo Omni's views in that over time, does the varying difference from maybe 8-10% as opposed to 11-13% make that much of an impact when there are a huge number of factors that can influence a fight at any given time?

Which is why I'll direct this next part to the older PLDs: How much gear is needed to notice a definite change in ability and contribution? It may be nice to have a few trace pieces of gear here or there, but how much is really needed to make a big Splash and not just a trinkle?

[Armando]

Re: Midgame

Hmm. Maybe the reason your numbers don't show a marked improvement in EXP rates are because they don't take into account the whole picture (which would be a lot harder to calculate out?) Better DD capabilities also mean a LOT better and a LOT more Vorpal Blades, and it also means plenty more skillchains. Also, if the PLD's theoretical damage goes up, so does his hate and that means the DD's damage should go up as well. Chain bonuses are also dependant on speed kill, so that could skew the EXP numbers even further as well.

Rena: I consider the basis/minimum for a good PLD DD set to be:
- Lifebelt (this goes without saying)
- R.G. Collar (macro in Shield Torque as you see fit...but you'll still need this for WS.)
- Woodsman + Venerer (replace Venerer with Jelly when eating sushi)
- Haubergeon
- Amemet Mantle
- At least one Attack earring (many like wearing Insomnia or Buckler on the other.)
- A good sword (i.e. not Gluttony.)

The rest (Assault Earring, a second Woodsman, Amemet HQ, Tiphia Sting, Valkyrie's Mask) are icing. Of course, they help, but they're smaller improvements and many cost plenty to boot. Those are pieces that you don't have to break the bank or stop to farm like a madman for.

Of those, only Woodsman and Haubergeon represent big investments. Lifebelt and R.G. Collar should be part of your gear already. Between Haubergeon, Woodsman/Venerer, Amemet Mantle and a Spike Earring you're looking at +6 STR, +32 Attack (STR factored in), and +17-18 Accuracy (DEX factored in.) That'll bump up your damage per hit a good, noticeable amount and increase your hit rate by about 8.5-9% (assuming R.G. Collar but no Venerer.) It takes Sushi to make the big difference, though.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Midgame

*shrug* It's back of the envolope type of calculation; it gives an idea of the magnitude of improvement to be expected, not the actual numbers. They say a 100% better DD PLD gives some where around 8% improvement in kill speed. It also does not distinguish between melee hits and WS--I lumped it all together when I wrote "100% improvement"--whatever the combination of melee and WS that is.

Keep in mind number of additional Vorpal Blade you get is exactly the number of additional regular melee hits you get, at best. If you have to hold TP more often, then it'd actually fall behind your melee hits. Another way of saying it is: if you are getting "A LOT MORE" Vorpal Blades, you're getting at least as much "A LOT MORE" melee hits.

Since you do have the more accurate and damaging WS capability, what is the percentage of your damage from Vorpal Blade, anyway? I would suspect the lion's share of your output is still the regular hits--increasing the damage from WS probably has a smaller effect than increasing the "DoT" aspect of your damage game.

[csBahamut]

Re: Midgame

Something else I forgot to add. When you go go a more DD route, you hep kill the mob faster. Through your own increased damage, and the more your party can put out because of an increased hate line. So with faster kills, the mob will have less rounds to hit you. So you want to look at the average damage you take per fight, along with the average damage the whole party takes, and compare that.