Endgame

[WishMaster3K]

How does it work?

I'm figuring that the usual "Cycle JAs For Enmity Spikes on Next Mob" tactic doesn't work.

I'm also guessing that self-curing is much harder.

While Armando is MIA regarding his "Blood Tanking" guide, what is the general consensus of PLD in regards to end-game ratios of VIT < > DEF???

Also, I'm not trying to be a turtle in EXP, but I understand that dynamics are different for end-game mobs, and simply trying to go at something in a Haubergeon spells death.

Do PLDs keep hate with just JAs, Flash spam and damage mitigation while the mages watch the HP and Cure Bomb?

I'm a LONG way away from endgame tanking (I probably won't reach my 70s as a PLD until probably septamber-mid October) but I was always curious.

[DakAttack]

Re: Endgame

You go /Nin like everybody else and bounce hate around.

[Necropolis]

Re: Endgame

The only things I see blood-tanked anymore are typically skygods, and sometimes not that. The trend at the moment appears to be Toe-To-Toe everything.

Kings are all mostly tanked by pld/nin. Macro in haste gear (or stay in haste gear to avoid blinking) for Flash, Cure your self when shadows are down or AoE hits, and cure others.

Also, all the +enmity you can find to keep the mob focused on you. Certain cases where you might be melee burning it, I've seen plds used for thier two hour and buy a little time for the heavy melees. Of course get TP before the fight to open a WS.

Dynamis most plds go /war from what I've seen because the mobs just arn't alive long enough to both establishing hate.

That's about all I can think of atm.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Endgame

Ok that's good. I have NIN already subbed. Looks like I'll need that lvl 50 +Haste Belt and some pieces of Homan..

[Callisto]

Re: Endgame

In my experiences endgame so far it has been alot of PLD/WAR, and for those mobs yes, generally VIT and HP > Def. Straight tanking most endgame mobs isn't super difficult overall, you generally focus on hate and not getting one-shotted as opposed to overall damage mitigation(there are generally plent of people to cure you as long as you're alive). This kind of sucks for tarus because no matter how sweet of a PLD they are in xp, you still want your PLD to have 1500+ HP at endgame.

PLD/NIN is a somewhat recent fad as far as I know, and there are generally several SAMs and DRKs hitting TA WS' to help you hold hate.

Add: Oh yeah, endgame sucks. So many dramatic crybabies you'd think you stumbled into an episode of The Real World. Hopefully you can at least get some of the sweet gear to make up for dealing with that shiat.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Endgame

What about mages bitching cause you just "blinked" since you macroed in some gear?

Good lord, it's not that big of a deal, but these mages want to cry..

[Callisto]

Re: Endgame

The ones I can't deal with are crying because gear doesn't drop or because you can't fight certain gods every time you go out. Gear drops can only be affected by players so much, and sometimes other LS' or RMT beat you to trigs. STFU and maybe you'll get a shot at the gear next week.

I really want a Genbu shield now, but I seriously don't want to join another dramatic Sky ls. Right now I'm working on gathering friends to help me get trigs, then going for the RDM solo when I have 3 hours to kill and a free night that doesn't have 3 LS' trying to do Genbu(I'm sometimes not a complete ass, I'd feel bad if I held the spawn up for 2.5-3 hours if there was a line waiting to kill it XD)

[Necropolis]

Re: Endgame

Well it depends on what you're fighting as to if you will want to have gear macro'ed in or out. If the pld is being fairly self sufficient and I'm curing him only in case he get in the red, I have a Cure V macro for him alone.

In that case he can swap all he wants (or they if there is a back up tank). Now in something like dynamis where the tank's healer is also doing other things (say a 36 man dynamis with only 2-3 whms), you don't want the tank blinking. Odds are I don't want to have a special macro for varying cures for one person.

But most cases the whm will have cure macros for the tank. You'll want to keep your swaps minimized as much as possible, but one every now and then is acceptable. Just weigh the benefits of the gear your swapping vs knowing your whm can keep a target on you.

[Karinya]

Re: Endgame

Enmity gear is king. It doesn't matter what your DEF is or whether you have shadows or not if the BLMs are tanking. You must get hate off the squishier members of the LS even if it kills you. Sometimes it will kill you. Get used to it. Better to have one person die than the number of DDs it could have ripped through in the same amount of time.

For some situations, bringing a charged reraise item such as Reraise Gorget is strongly recommended. For others it's not necessary. Which is which depends on the LS, so it's something you'll have to get with experience. Carry one around just in case (or two, if the first is almost empty).

As a new tank, you can expect to spend a lot of time waiting for another tank to die so you can be substituted in for them. (Depending on the fight and the composition of the LS, it may be helpful to do some support curing during this time. Parade Gorget is helpful for this.) This means when you do come in, you will need to build hate quickly, since you are joining midfight. That's why I emphasize the importance of enmity. In multi-monster areas you will often be expected to draw hate from several mobs that aren't being engaged at the moment (which someone else will be sleeping if possible). Again, lots of enmity is needed to build and maintain hate while splitting your hate tools between several targets.

In some fights and some LS's, multiple tanks may be used for SATA. If you are a secondary tank and don't have hate, getting behind the mob may be useful. (In some specific fights you definitely do NOT want to do this, though. This will usually be addressed in the LS strategy pages or pre-fight talk; if they say don't go behind that mob, then don't go behind that mob.)

If you're kiting, pay attention to the designated kiting area. Going outside it may draw additional unwanted aggro.


Many dangerous endgame attacks are magic damage, which VIT and DEF don't reduce at all. Magic defense bonus and -% magic damage (or -%damage in general) are very useful, but also hard to find. Use them if you have them.

+HP has some uses, but don't load up on it to the detriment of enmity (High Breath Mantle, or if you have it, Valor Cape are usually better than Gigant Mantle, for example). You may want to wear pure HP when using precharged Spirits Within, then swap to a setup with more enmity after using it; on the other hand, wearing an enmity or partial enmity setup to do SW will give you more hate from it (despite being less damage). Again, the right move depends on the fight.

The relative importance of VIT/DEF, magic damage reduction and max HP varies from fight to fight. But enmity is always necessary.


Success for an endgame tank is not defined by whether you live or die. It's defined by whether your allies live or die. Endgame tanking is a collaborative activity among the group's tanks - at any given time, some of them may be dead or recovering from death, but as long as you aren't all dead at once, the team can fight on. If dying upsets you easily, consider another job.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Endgame

If dying upsets you easily, consider another job.

Not at all, but I suspect that it will be harder to cap exp on PLD than it is on RDM.

Thanks for the input, Karinya!

[Callisto]

Re: Endgame

Not at all, but I suspect that it will be harder to cap exp on PLD than it is on RDM.

Thanks for the input, Karinya!

LoL, thanks WM3K for reminding me that I die way too often on RDM; ; I would think that'd it'd be easy to keep xp capped too, not like I have trouble getting a party, but I die a whole heck of a lot, and usually eat R1's or HPs since many of my deaths come either solo or in Dynamis. I gave up on capping xp, and now I just switch to merits any time I'm above 10k.

PLD seems to have gotten easier to cap though, it is coming back into style for merits again from what I've seen, and I've even seen several PLDburn parties started by those who got tired of waiting for a proper party(5 PLD/NINs and a BRD apparently does rather well).

[Omni]

Re: Endgame

yea... enmity. have some (atleast) half-brained capable players be able to fuidama hate on to you without taking 20seconds to get lined up and cozy with popcorn.

dont you hate that?
<somethfor/thfguy> OK SATA READY!
you > go for it
<somethfor/thfguy> OK 147% TP READY FOR SKILLCHAIN!!!
you > all right!
<somethfor/thfguy> I'm going now!
you > ...
<somethfor/thfguy> readies sneak attack!
<somethfor/thfguy> readies trick attack!
<somethfor/thfguy> what the heck why did you turn the mob for?!
you > ... the other tank is dead now...

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Endgame

<somethfor/thfguy> what the heck why did you turn the mob for?!
you > ... the *other tank is dead now...

* Replace with First Voker and you have the story of my life post 40.

Suprising how you can tell the difference between a bad THF and a good THF fairly easy.

It's never easy to tell when you're in the backline, because my attention was focused on the mob in a limited manner (if it's running back towards the mages, or if it has a buddy along with it...) And I was too busy looking at the chat log and the PT HP/MP to care about whether or not the melee were taking too long to line up..

But as a Tank.. Holy shyt. I can discern the abilities of my PT from as early as the 2nd consecutive chain, assuming we get that far.

But lemme stop derailing (kinda). I have to get to 50, let alone Endgame ; ;

So much gear...

[tuggler]

Re: Endgame

To some extent you can achieve a VIT/DEF and Enmity setup all in one at the same time. I know that sometimes you want to stack on the HP as much as possible, and this doesn't suit those situations, but on those occasions where turtle-tanking (I know it's going out of fashion, but wth, it's still a very handy way to tank) and enmity are important this works well. Obviously it all depends on gear, but if you can get as much of the Valor gear as possible, you're almost there. With the gear I have I have quite high defence and VIT (really should check to see if I've hit the VIT softcap actually!) and I have no problems with Enmity. I wear a Parade Gorget full time for MP refresh (really need it as a Galka with just 170 MP at 75!), but the thing that really helps keep hate on these mobs is that I macro in Harmonia's Torque for every JA and MA I use. Along with the enmity from the Valor gear this helps a heck of a lot. I seem to survive quite well against Sky gods (not inc Kirin, which I normally TP burn as WAR) in the following gear:

Durandal (or Maca +1)
Koenig Shield
Bibiki Seashell
Valor Coronet
Parade Gorget
Ethereal Earring
Buckler Earring
Valor Surcoat
Valor Gauntlets
Hercules' Ring
Jelly Ring
Boxer's Mantle
Warwolf Belt
Adaman Cuisses
Gallant Leggings (macro in Valor for Sentinel)

With this setup I have found that I haven't needed to take any more than 1 merit in enmity. Like I said, I macro in Harmonia's for every JA and MA and I also macro in Swift Belt for flash. I have capped sword and shield merits and am currently working on a HP setup, including intending to merit HP to full. I know people will have different opinions on this setup, but it works for me :-).

As I gain more gear I know this setup will change and I'll be able to become more flexible, but at the moment, this works well. Next projects are kiting gear, more Sky gear, HP gear and haste gear. This is gonna take ages!

[csBahamut]

Re: Endgame

Karinya pretty much covered all the basics. There's a few things I'd like to add. Since I don't belong to any HNM LS, I have not done any of the really big boys like Tiamat, Khimara, and Cerebus. I have done sky gods back in the day when we blood tanked still. My current experience is really only with Limbus.
For most big boys now, /NIN is the way to go. Generally, you go for +emnity first, followed by +HP. If you can, you also fit in +haste gear, or anything you might want specifically for that fight. Like Proto-Ultima, for which I have a specific -%magic damage and +HP build I use. Any +def and +VIT you get is a bonus, but not required.
What gear you use will really depend on your tank party setup. Most big HNM LSes have the resources to get the best setups, which usually means you get a lot of support in the way of refreshers, hasters, marches, and barspells/carols. My Limbus group doesn't have that kind of luxury, so we have to use what we have to fit each situation as best as we can. Not everyone in our group has the same quality of gear (some do Dynamis, some have/had HNM LSes, etc.). In cases like this, you need to balance your gear with the other tanks. If you have too much more emnity that your co-tank, they may never be able to get hate off you, or they depend too much on SATA for spike hate. It doesn't help hate sharing, which is important for surviving.
We don't always have enough BRDs to go around and give BRDs to all the tanks either, so you sometimes have to do without march or carols. For someone like Proto Ultima though, you'll need light carol if you want to survive Citadel Buster (My gear is just barely good enough to survive 90% of the time with Light Carol on).
There are instances where blood tanking /WAR are still better. My group still finds PLD/WAR handy for all the regular floors in Limbus, plus for the Central floors 1-3 in Temenos. Sometimes it's just certain enemies that suck for blink tanks, and sometimes they just can't hold enough hate. This is where you want to have a DD-like setup, and spare turtle gear. The Kings floor in Apollyon is a good example. With a group of 12+, PLD/WAR is a better tank for all the bosses, except for the Wyrm, than a PLD/NIN. The bosses get hit so hard, so fast, you need the fast hate gain of PLD/WAR. On the Wyrm, turtle up as best as possible. Loose a little +emnity gear if you can to let you do more cure support. Then just take hate when your tanking partner's shadows go down.
For kiting, it's all about the +emnity again. One thing that I rarely see people mention is kiting distance. Most mobs that are kited, stop periodically to cast spells. This tends to allow you to get a large distance between you and the mob. This can be a bad thing, if you go too far. There's an odd hate loss if you run too far. One way to tell if you've gone too far is if you lose the target (had mob selected, and you loose target on it). Just get used to casting distance limits, and run just outside this range and stop. Once the mob starts moving again, you can continue kiting.
Dynamis is one place where you want to go with a +emnity and turtle build. You don't need a ton of +def/VIT gear though. It doesn't help a ton. Just wear heavy armor and have +emnity. Between Protect IV, food (fish kabob is plenty), and defender, you'll have plenty of defense. I've used things like Hauby and Homam pieces before, and still gotten hit the same. So your gear just needs focused around keeping hate. Like +emnity, shield skill, and refresh.