PLDs, let your rants out.

[WishMaster3K]

Disclaimer:
Stuff that we have no business ranting about, because the end result is all the same, but just stuff that annoys tanks. If you don't like the fact that a highly desired job in almost any situation has the audacity to complain about stuff that the majority of the game wishes they could experience, then GTFO, because your comments aren't needed. Of course, you can also add to the post by giving your own nuggets of info, but save your time otherwise.
/disclaimer.

My main rant is OVERHEALING.

Ok. Well, I know, that's better than not being healed at all, but when I am constantly thwarted on my Cure IIs healing for anything less than 70HP because the WHM wants to Bomb me with CureIIIs.

Oh, and Power Levelers. I think I'm a pretty good tank. Party last night had PLD THF BLU WHM BRD COR. Chain 5 at the bottom of the tunnel to the big room in CN, everyone got at least 2 levels. Thanks to Evokers, I generally didn't have to rest. Which is good, because the WHM seemed unable to keep me unpoisoned. But that's ok, I'm just splitting hairs, it was a great PT. But the damn power leveler was casting Cure IIIs and IVs like they were effing GOING OUT OF STYLE.

I try to tell my mages to stick to Cure Is unless I'm in Red, but NO one listens to the tank, because we don't know how to do our jobs.

And then an Exoray did Dark Spore for 650.

No matter how much HP I had that would have been lethal, lol, so I just laughed.

Ah well. That's the rant for the weekend. I have 33 LOOONG levels ahead of me, so we'll see what happens. /end rant

[Raydeus]

Re: PLDs, let your rants out.

My rant as a PLD would be DDs who do way too much dmg at the beginning of the fight and don't let me get enough hate.

But then again long fights where you are able to stablish hate are a thing of the past, in fast killing parties waiting for hate to be secured on the tank would kill xp.

PLD really needs better and bigger hate tools, I seriously doubt SE wanted all PLDs to sub /WAR till Altana decides Vana has lived long enough.

[Armando]

Re: PLDs, let your rants out.

My rant is other PLDs with bad gear choices. No form of R.K. Belt will ever be superior to the ol' Life belt. Knightly Mantle is obsolete (simply because High Breath will let you hold hate so much better, and Amemet helps your damage more than Knightly Mantle will ever help your damage mitigation.) Don't get me started on Gluttony Sword. Oh, and getting /tells from other PLDs that I "need more VIT." As if wearing two Chrysoberyl Rings is going to make a noticeable difference. I'll take my Woodsman Rings over VIT rings at this point any day of the week.

Oh. And WHMs that don't Flash. Hardly anything ruins my party experience more than having a WHM in the party, and realizing he's not flashing.

PLD really needs better and bigger hate tools, I seriously doubt SE wanted all PLDs to sub /WAR till Altana decides Vana has lived long enough.

Personally I think we're fine hate-wise. By the time DDs can really be stupid, we already have the hate tools to deal with them. By the time we can see 500 damage WS, we can gear up to do more damage as well. That and Sentinel borders on broken when it comes to holding hate. Sure, if the DDs really go out of their way we'll still have a hard time. But if they want to be stupid, let them - it's not your problem if they die.

[Raydeus]

Re: PLDs, let your rants out.

The turtle-tanking style was good years ago though, back when we didn't have a lot of gear we have nowadays.

High Breath Mantle, fast T-VT chaining, better-than-Glutony swords (dmg wise) etc. they are all from more recent times, and a more DD oriented PLD approach barely started with Aht Urgan, so most guides are still about the turtle-tanking way.

I think that's part of the problem, in my time we would fight IT++ so you'd focus on having as much +emnity +vit +def as possible, after all fights took much longer and DDs would wait for hate to be stablished before doing their SC.

Right now PLD's role is more of a support tank/support DD so gear choices will have to change accordingly. Although I don't like that new place PLD has in xp parties, which is why I haven't been a PLD in a really long time except for some CoP fights.

Maybe someday I'll take my armor out of storage and xp as PLD again, but right now I rather play other jobs.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: PLDs, let your rants out.

Wait... So the Gluttony isn't really worth it?

I was eyeing the Tact.Magician.Esp @ 50. But not sure past that. I think I'd be so happy I could finally equip my Parade.

Oh, do you guys ever take that off, or is that pretty much the norm for Neck pieces, no matter the situation. I was thinking of swapping in the Shield Gorget since I already have one in addition to my Shield Earring.

[Jarre]

Re: PLDs, let your rants out.

I generally didn't have to rest. Which is good, because the WHM seemed unable to keep me unpoisoned.

Your not the only one with that problem in CN, whilst levelling from 38-40 in CN, the whm refused to poisona me after a fight. being a Galka, where Mp is more limited than other races (yes I have 2 pieces of RSE to give me a boost (hands and feet) but still after 3 crawlers I need to get mp back as RDm didn't get refresh till 41 and we had to deal with a couple of links. I asked him nicely ifhe could poisona me if he saw a crawler poison me, but instead he was more worried about resting and getting his mp up (considering it never went below 200, 1 poisona before resting wouldn;t have killed him or taken up valuable mp !!)

I eneded up going through my emergency stack of antitdotes just to keep the aprty alive as I had to majorly pull hate a few time with big mp sucking cure bombs on people thanks to over zealous BLM who thin nuking 10 times with tier 2 nukes in a constant row helps. How about an enfeeble or 2 mr BLM, this ain't a mana burn!!!!!

Thankfully when we dinged 39 the leader left, we got a new leader (theif that was pulling and SATAing with me) and a new WHM and WAR, we moved to gustav and exp increased, I was poisonad when a fly poisoned me, and when RDM hit 41 refresh woot!! I got my 40 and half way to 41 before I had to log as it was late.

sometimes I think people think PLDs are jsut there to take hits and swipe their swords, some people don't realise we have to balance hate using MP as well!!!

End of rant

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: PLDs, let your rants out.

Wait... So the Gluttony isn't really worth it?

>_> You can tank fine with Gluttony Sword, fully turtled. If anything, I found it easier to keep the monster's attention with full Def/VIT setup than with hybrid setup against IT monsters.

When you have plenty of healing power in the party, and there's a TA on you or when all the melees come as /NIN anyway, I'd say start experimenting with switching out the VIT/Def gears for Acc/Atk and swords with better DoT damage.

Against VT's and lower, I usually switch from defense food to Dorado Sushi, upping both accuracy and enmity at the same time. However, I find myself often switching back and forth between offense and defense gear sets when I eat that, and sometimes even popping up Defender full time against nastier critters.

Although I would recommend carrying Acc/Atk gear and food, the base setup should still be VIT/Def. Until Lv.72 (or so I'm told), you can always tank on VIT/Def setup. (It's not always optimal, depending on camp and party and level of the monsters--but always doable.) The same can't be said for Acc/Atk setups, especially against IT monsters; eating 2-5 crit hits each battle at ~250 dmg on top of many ~100+ dmg normal hits is not nice on the MP reserve around Lv.60.

* * *

I don't like Haubergeon for tanking.

The current "conventional wisdom" is that PLD can't evade anyway, so evasion- gear like Haubergeon (Eva-20) won't hurt. I'm going to be a black sheep and claim that's false.

Tanking Defoliator and Aydeewa Diremite at ~Lv.62 with a double Flash rotation (my PLD and the static WHM), I escaped damage over 35% of the time (evasion and parrying together), using Scorpion Harness and no evasion- beyond one Spike Earring (part-time). Evading attacks is a huge part of a PLD's damage mitigation, over time.

A Haubergeon's Evasion-20 means net evasion down compared to Scorpion Harness would be 30. That translates to actual evasion minus 15%--that's 15% more damage taken, hardly ignorable. That's even before AGI-5 is accounted for further lowering of the evasion and the shield proc rate.

Attack+10, STR+5, and DEX+5 look good, but Scorpion Harness (or even Jaridah Peti) is the better full-time gear for a hybrid PLD, in my opinion--evasion does matter.

[Celeal]

Re: PLDs, let your rants out.

>_> You can tank fine with Gluttony Sword, fully turtled. If anything, I found it easier to keep the monster's attention with full Def/VIT setup than with hybrid setup against IT monsters.

When you have plenty of healing power in the party, and there's a TA on you or when all the melees come as /NIN anyway, I'd say start experimenting with switching out the VIT/Def gears for Acc/Atk and swords with better DoT damage.

Against VT's and lower, I usually switch from defense food to Dorado Sushi, upping both accuracy and enmity at the same time. However, I find myself often switching back and forth between offense and defense gear sets when I eat that, and sometimes even popping up Defender full time against nastier critters.

Although I would recommend carrying Acc/Atk gear and food, the base setup should still be VIT/Def. Until Lv.72 (or so I'm told), you can always tank on VIT/Def setup. (It's not always optimal, depending on camp and party and level of the monsters--but always doable.) The same can't be said for Acc/Atk setups, especially against IT monsters; eating 2-5 crit hits each battle at ~250 dmg on top of many ~100+ dmg normal hits is not nice on the MP reserve around Lv.60.

* * *

I don't like Haubergeon for tanking.

The current "conventional wisdom" is that PLD can't evade anyway, so evasion- gear like Haubergeon (Eva-20) won't hurt. I'm going to be a black sheep and claim that's false.

Tanking Defoliator and Aydeewa Diremite at ~Lv.62 with a double Flash rotation (my PLD and the static WHM), I escaped damage over 35% of the time (evasion and parrying together), using Scorpion Harness and no evasion- beyond one Spike Earring (part-time). Evading attacks is a huge part of a PLD's damage mitigation, over time.

A Haubergeon's Evasion-20 means net evasion down compared to Scorpion Harness would be 30. That translates to actual evasion minus 15%--that's 15% more damage taken, hardly ignorable. That's even before AGI-5 is accounted for further lowering of the evasion and the shield proc rate.

Attack+10, STR+5, and DEX+5 look good, but Scorpion Harness (or even Jaridah Peti) is the better full-time gear for a hybrid PLD, in my opinion--evasion does matter.

I have similar conclusion with IfritnoItazura ^^/

Besides Gluttony Sword, bring extra sword(s) with you for alternative setup in exp. parties. You will encounter situations that Gluttony Sword is useful (or not useful).

I had never try evasion build for PLD, but I try AGI+ build (AGI and VIT/DEF mix) and tanked successfully since level 50. Mobs like Carbs and Crawlers are safe for aiming parry/shield/evade: Because if parry/shiled/evade fails to trigger, you hardly get one-shot by the mob. If you are going to tank hard-hitting mobs, like Spiders, Scorpion, etc, it is safer to focus on Def/VIT; it is better to be safe than sorry.

DD hybrid PLD build as Armando mention works too, if the situation is right. Instead of using large portion of gear to boost damage output, I used attack food or sushi and more conservative on gear.

My opinion on Parade Gorget:
If the PLD is lacking in MP recovery, either boosting MP recovery (juice, Parade Gorget, V.Cloak, Dark Staff, food that comes with MP healing like Tacos....), or boosting the damage mitigation (the traditional way). Parade Gorget is good, more option is always a good thing.

[Armando]

Re: PLDs, let your rants out.

Gluttony Sword's value depends on how much you value offense and defense. 7 VIT doesn't do enough to the mob's fSTR to convince me to pick a sword with noticeably less DMG/sec, whether I'm fighting tough mobs or not. Take into consideration shield blocks and Flash, and the little damage that 7 VIT mitigates is eroded even further. T.M. Espadon +2 on the other hand has really good DMG/sec (puts axes to shame) and packs an impressive +12 Attack. Even if I didn't plan on using a Haubergeon, Woodsman Rings, and Sushi, I'd still prefer the T.M. Espadon +2. It's your call though. Just 'cuz I do it doesn't mean I'm right, but that's my reasoning for it.

Can't really fault anyone not wanting to wear a Haub during Flash. It's true, -20 Evasion is a lot and we can actually evade during Flash (as opposed to having minimal evasion under normal circumstances.) I'd rather do a gear swap for Flash's duration than miss out on Haubergeon's Attack stats altogether though. To each his own. If you're wearing either piece (i.e. Haubergeon or Harness/Peti) then you're ok in my book.

On Parade Gorget: I switch it in between fights and start fights with it. Then I take it off. I get maybe 4-5 ticks between fights. Its usefulness is a bit limited in EXP due to the high HP requirement. Doesn't mean it's not a kick-ass piece of equipment that's easy to get though.

P.S. Just to make this clear I don't have a problem with non-hybrid PLDs in general. The oldschool turtle method has worked for years and that's what every PLD thinks he/she should be doing. I also understand that a lot of the people here worked their way up the EXP ladder using the turtle style, and they were damned good at it - I respect that. I don't expect the entire server's population to suddenly have a revelation and realize that the pseudo-DD approach works better in enough situations to not be a gimmick or entirely situational. I don't expect anyone to just have 3 million gil lying around so he/she can rush to the AH and buy expensive DD gear ASAP either. What irks me is to see people with no concern at all over the damage they do AND choosing ridiculously small bonuses on top of that. Defensive or hybrid, your damage still counts, that's why we engage instead of tanking without our weapon. I don't mind a Gluttony Sword in an otherwise ok setup - hell, I run around with a Save the Queen, I'm sure that annoys a couple of people - but seeing something like Gluttony + R.K. Belt + Knightly Mantle makes my head hurt. Almost as much as seeing PLDs with MND rings (wtf.) That sort of thing would've been ok a couple of years back, but nowadays we have enough information at our disposal to understand why 2 VIT and STR doesn't compare to 10 Accuracy in the waist slot.

[DakAttack]

Re: PLDs, let your rants out.

I was the turtle style all the way up until 69 where it's currently at. I gave up on Vit around level 50 though, and began looking for Agi, +Shield Block, +Evasion, and +Parry. I didn't notice a whole lot of a change in the damage I was recieving, but I didn't notice my Parry rate increase as well as Parry skill ups. Blocks didn't change a whole lot, but my Evasion seemed a little better. For full time tanking this seemed to be better than a Vit build.

Now it looks like you need to be more of a DD build with a shield to keep up with some of these TP parties. That's only if you get invited.

[Raydeus]

Re: PLDs, let your rants out.

Oh, an off-topic rant, Armando hasn't posted his avatar's pic on the pic thread.

[Callisto]

Re: PLDs, let your rants out.

A rant about PLDs: Cover. It's there for a reason, not some long-lost art of the ancients. Make a macro for it, and use it when someone is getting beat down and you don't have any hate moves ready to use. Other than that, I PLD. They let me have fun as /DRK in a merit pt without getting myself killed. Wish I could say that about NINs; ;

[Amele]

Re: PLDs, let your rants out.

I don't like Haubergeon for tanking.
The current "conventional wisdom" is that PLD can't evade anyway, so evasion- gear like Haubergeon (Eva-20) won't hurt. I'm going to be a black sheep and claim that's false.
Tanking Defoliator and Aydeewa Diremite at ~Lv.62 with a double Flash rotation (my PLD and the static WHM), I escaped damage over 35% of the time (evasion and parrying together), using Scorpion Harness and no evasion- beyond one Spike Earring (part-time). Evading attacks is a huge part of a PLD's damage mitigation, over time.
A Haubergeon's Evasion-20 means net evasion down compared to Scorpion Harness would be 30. That translates to actual evasion minus 15%--that's 15% more damage taken, hardly ignorable. That's even before AGI-5 is accounted for further lowering of the evasion and the shield proc rate.
Attack+10, STR+5, and DEX+5 look good, but Scorpion Harness (or even Jaridah Peti) is the better full-time gear for a hybrid PLD, in my opinion--evasion does matter.

15% hit rate is not necessarily 15% damage over time (it's actually a little more!) but, this also assumes that the mob isn't capped on his accuracy.

it'd be interesting to find out what % of your avoids were parry and what % were evasion.

if the evasion avoids were less than 20% of your 35% avoidance rate, then you would not in fact see a full 15% increase in hit rate - mob accuracy is capped at ~95% just like player accuracy is.

all that said, I prefer paladins to use their AF1 body for the 60's since I feel that the enmity is worth it in the level range when a paladin is still face tanking. (although I'm a heavy DD this time through, so I'm inviting paladins primarily so that I'm *not* face-tanking. lol)

I agree with you though: while it's a clever statement (and worth thinking about at 75, where it is largely true) 'paladins don't evade, mobs miss' is hardly the most accurate statement in the 60's. ^^

[WishMaster3K]

Re: PLDs, let your rants out.

The Hauby looks nice, and nowadays it's reasonably affordable.

But is it worth it for 3 levels? After 60, every job gets an increase, and I read that Flash loses it's luster as OMGWTFBBQ ATTACK THE PLD that it was from 30-mid50, also concurrent with the idea that PLD pretty much only "need" AF up until Valor.

Right now I plan on holding out till 52 to get the +1 Gear for dirt cheap, but aside from that.. it was AF all the way.

And what' wrong with being a Turtle ; ;

So now Taru PLDs have to Tank AND DD? OH what the fudge.. My Seraph Blades only break 160 if I have Berserk up (With Sentinel of course )

Edit:
Oh, yesterday I bought a Memento Muffler.
I figured that it was better than a medieval collar and at the very least gave me 1 more Def.

[Ameroth]

Re: PLDs, let your rants out.

My main rant is OVERHEALING.

Ok. Well, I know, that's better than not being healed at all, but when I am constantly thwarted on my Cure IIs healing for anything less than 70HP because the WHM wants to Bomb me with CureIIIs.

Just got out of a party where this was happening... Except it was an over-zealous BLM. Almost every time my hp went below 1k, he'd pop a cure III on me. Rarely could I use a cure IV because the blm would be right there to drop a cure III on me and basically waste my cure. Stick to black magic guy.

In terms of pld tanking style, I'm definitely a turtle tanking kinda man. Lots of defense and +VIT to boot. With a tavnazian taco my VIT is at +33. I fail to believe that huge boost doesn't help me to some degree. I do agree RK belts are kind of useless in some circumstances, especially as your level increases. Having some gear that can boost dmg and accuracy won't hurt one bit. After all, PLDs are one of the best classes in terms of close range combat (Sword/Shield rating A+, club A-) and that should be kept in mind while choosing your equipment. However, if I wanted to be a DD tank, I'd probably level NIN. I enjoy the fact that I can take a hit from a mob thats 6-8 levels higher than me for less than 50dmg.

When it comes to paladin's hate-holding tools, I really disagree with you if you think we need "bigger and better" tools. Maybe at lower levels it can be tough, but later... Cmon: Flash, Cure I-IV, Sentinel, Shield Bash, Rampart, Cover. That list doesn't include provoke just to show that we get plenty of tools. Provoke is incredibly helpful, sure, but I reckon I could tank fine w/o it if the situation called for it (PLD/NIN).

All in all, I don't think there's one set way for a pld to tank. Whether you focus on defense and vitality, or go for more damage, as long as you can successfully hold hate throughout the duration of a party and keep your party-mates happy who is anyone to judge?