Ouch.

[Celeal]

Re: Ouch.

To OP:

IMHO, if there is no downtime or death, it does not really matter if the mob turns to the MNK in your party (to a certain extend). If your presence as a PLD tank provides a safe environment to your party, then your basic role is fullfilled.

All the posters in the above posts already give good advices and tactics, so I am not going to repeat. My suggestion is consistency in your hate management. If you cure the MNK when the MNK has hate, be consistently cure the MNK (if your MP is allowed). If Cover is what you use when the MNK spike hate, be consistent with Cover. As long as your hate is consistent over time, the hate of your party members will also be consistent over time. However, I am not saying to have a flat-rate hate level all the time. What I mean is to have hate goes up-and-down consistently over time. For example, if the PLD uses Sentinel in every exp. chain #4 battles, the DDs may eventually flow with the PLD and go crazy in every exp. chain #4. Either the PLD set the up-and-down of the hate threshold, or the PLD adjust the hate routine according to the flow of the party.

[Tokitoki]

Re: Ouch.

I don't think ever in my 4 years of playing have I ever paid enough attention to the tank for my PT to notice any patterns... The only thing that a DD is concerned with is WS (since Skillchains seem to have died out along with the release of ToAU), using their own JAs, and making sure their attacks land. The only time you notice the tank's pattern of hate is when you yourself have hate and you want them to take it back.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Ouch.

Yeah, we definitely had a DRG and THF there, but I never noticed Distortion. Not once. -_- And Distortion is the most common sound I've heard before everyone and their dog wanted to start Light and Dark.

[Tokitoki]

Re: Ouch.

Distortion was the reason THF were invited to PTs. Now THF don't know what it was really like to be a THF. I feel bad for them.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Ouch.

Distortion is awesome because even a bad THF can get 400 off of VB, bursting for at least 200, and the resulting MB would most assuredly kill the mob or at least have it REALLY pissed at the tank.

Skillchains just ain't been the same. I would love to have SATA+SC go off on me, but I hate when other ppl get hate, even for a second. Makes me nervous..

[Omni]

Re: Ouch.

tanks are lazy these days. (not saying you wishmaster2.5k).
the idea of getting great xp has spoiled people so no one takes the time to line up, sata, etc.

its sad.

[Aeni]

Re: Ouch.

WM~

Dude, I feel your pain. I know of many good pallies who were good at 75 but let me tell you, at 41, with a monk or two or sometimes three, they will all tell you that it was hell.

1. Get a THF to SATA on you.

2. Tell MNK to hold off on RF. No need to spam that everytime it's up 100% unless you're doing TP burn at 40sh... which you should not be doing.

3. Tell your healers lay off on petty healing (towards you)

4. Spam your WS (if you have it, don't bother participating in renkei)

5. Spread out your JAs as much as possible. Heal the monk, tell healer, again, lay off petty heals (They should be spot healing with a pally, not power healing)

6. Use Flash a few seconds after provoking, not the other way around. Reasoning is you need it to keep from casting interrupts. Don't "waste" it on the get go when mob is still trying to get to you Front loading enmity is nice and all, but remember, you're only spiking the enmity and putting all of them on cooldowns while the MNK is providing a good and nice steady DPS which will nullify all that front loading after a few seconds. You need to pace your enmity with the MNK's DPS.

Those are the only tips I can provide. Worked in unison, you shouldn't have issues.

[Vyuru]

Re: Ouch.

My own personal thoughts on the matter:

There is always the special circumstance, but no thief should ever be finishing off the mob with SATA, why you ask? Because they should be planting a SATA+WS at the start of the fight, if they use SATA to end one fight then they have to wait a full minute before pulling, or pulling and letting hate bounce all over the place.

Also, a thf should not be planting SATA onto a high hate job such as monk, in most situations.

And if you have a drg and thf in the party why are there no nice Double/Raiden Thrust > SATA Viper Bite SC going off? Even at that level I was able to manage my hate well enough with High Jump to allow thfs to SATA+Viper Bite for a SC onto me mid fight if they so wished, it just got easier with Super Jump. But then I did have an exceptional Pld and Thf to party with.

I mostly party with thiefs, so I would say that once the SATA+WS lands on you your party can go wild without too much worry, a simple Flash and Provoke afterwards is just gravy.

If the whm has to heal someone, say thf is low on hp after pulling or something, either toss on a regen I/II onto the thief before he heads out, or toss out the heals before the thief comes back into hate generating range. There does seem to be a distance factor into how hate works, and I've seen whm drop Cure IV with no ill affects while a mob was being pulled.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Ouch.

6. Use Flash a few seconds after provoking, not the other way around. Reasoning is you need it to keep from casting interrupts. Don't "waste" it on the get go when mob is still trying to get to you Front loading enmity is nice and all, but remember, you're only spiking the enmity and putting all of them on cooldowns while the MNK is providing a good and nice steady DPS which will nullify all that front loading after a few seconds. You need to pace your enmity with the MNK's DPS.

I static'ed with PLD, MNK, and THF before, so I can tell you that a normal decent MNK in Lv.50's will NOT be able to "nullify all that front loading after a few seconds", not if the PLD is any good, since he should be generating his own enmity nicely. (MNK's with lot's of merits and best of the best equipment may be different, of course.)

When we first started, the PLD would wait until SATA to Provoke and Flash, and that didn't work out very well for the MNK's HP, and his WS's were often self-MPK attempts. I suggested to the PLD to Flash and cast Cures on the MNK as soon as the MNK used initial Provoke, and that turned out very well for us.

Having tried both ways, we liked the the early Flash and Cures much better--it worked so well that the MNK could open fights with his WS, then the RNG-THF made Distortion, and BLM (me) could MB with Freeze without too much concern. That's like 80%+ of a typical IT monster's health gone 4 seconds after the PLD's first Provoke.

"Saving" Flash for when you want to Cure yourself is a very bad tactic in my book; it greatly waste one of PLD's best enmity tool, and causes the party to take on lot's of unnecessary damage.

Timing is the key to getting large Cures through (and Shield is your second best friend in reducing cast interrupts). The only time Flash should be saved for more than a few seconds is toward the end of the battle in fast pull situations, so you'd have it up immediate at the start of the next fight.

* * *

I'm also a PLD64, and I've tried both Provoke-Flash and Flash-Provoke, and ended up liking Flash-Provoke at the start of the battle more, because Flash has longer timer than Provoke, and the sooner I use it the sooner I get it back. (I don't have much haste gear. lol. >_< )

[Murphie]

Re: Ouch.

I preferred to front load my hate as well as a PLD (way back in the day). Sure, I saved a couple of tricks for those moments of panic, but with my static setup, hate was rarely an issue. But really, use your best judgement. By the time you're moving into the 40s, you should have a pretty good idea of what tools you have available, and how best to use them.

[Armando]

Re: Ouch.

As far as I can tell enmity from Flash isn't going anywhere fast (i.e. if it even goes away with time at all, it does so slowly.) Using Flash earlier just means you start with pretty much the same enmity you would've if you had used it later, but you reach that enmity value sooner.

I usually do Provoke -> Flash for three reasons. 1) Since Provoke is a JA then there's practically no delay to wait before I can use Flash after it. 2) Less likely to "waste a hit" due to the mob being Flashed for 4 secs before getting to me. 3) It gives me better cover if I'm going to open the fight with a WS (Berserk + Sushi Vorpal Blades ftw.) To each his own, though. In the grand scheme of things it shouldn't make too big a difference.

[Aeni]

Re: Ouch.

I static'ed with PLD, MNK, and THF before, so I can tell you that a normal decent MNK in Lv.50's will NOT be able to "nullify all that front loading after a few seconds", not if the PLD is any good, since he should be generating his own enmity nicely. (MNK's with lot's of merits and best of the best equipment may be different, of course.)

You misinterpreted many things in my post.

1. No, you don't save Flash (Please point out where I said to "save" it)

2. You will most likely need to heal yourself in the first 5 seconds. DO NOT LET HEALER HEAL YOU. Having Flash here will help immensely to reduce casting time (from interrupts) and you do not want a Stun here either (Same reason as being healed by someone else)

3. You're already in your 50s. By then, more equipment options as well as a bigger MP pool. I believe we're talking at level 41? When MNKs have Raging Fists (Merited MNKs with the right accessories can get it in level 40 cap areas)

Once you get off a Flash in the first few seconds, you will not get it back for another 45sec (Unless SE changed this since the time I've been away) I'm not sure about you, but 45 sec is eternity. Provoke is on a 30sec timer, a bit less of a wait, but it's a wait nonetheless.

Here's the thing. If your party takes so long to kill ONE mob that you end up using more than 2 flashes ... something is wrong. Thus, the "need" to have another Flash up right away is misleading. Mobs should not take longer than 90sec to down or you're having some issues with some or all of your party members (Or you're fighting the wrong mobs for your setup or one of great difficulty)

I do not like this "one-size fits all" mentality of play. As someone wise once told me, it's far better to kill 3 High Ts in the same time it takes to kill 1 IT.