Relic of a bygone era

[PTT]

Hi everyone.

I'm writing to ask opinions on how to better myself as a 75 PLD.

I like to think I've been a good Paladin - my friends still say I am. I've been a traditional tank for as long as I can remember. I've had the good fortune to ride the wave of Paladin updates as they happened from the beginning (IE: when Eisen gear was released, I was at the right level, when the Parade Cuirass...ditto, Shield update, and so on.)

So, I've been sitting at 75 for awhile, still in my traditional tanking setup, and the more I go do things, the more I've come to the realization that I've lost whatever edge I used to have in tanking. Instead of commanding hate, it's now whether the damage dealers ALLOW me to have hate, which isn't that often. I recently tanked the last 2 BCNM fights in ToAU, and it was an absolutely shameful performance on my part - Even using a High-Breath Mantle, I had incredible trouble tanking, and it just turned into a big old "Just kill it" frenzy.

So, I don't really know where to go from here. I'm too engrooved in the traditional kind of exp tank role, and I'm fully aware that that's not very effective nowadays, especially in ToAU areas. I don't know if I need to go a more melee-oriented route, or if I simply need better tank gear, but regardless, I'm not sure where to start improvement.

I don't have an Endgame HNMLS anymore, and I'm not really keen on joining one again, but I do run Dynamis with an LS that's let me tag along.

So, may I ask for advice? What should I be doing?

Weapon: Joyeuse
Shield: Koenig Shield
Helmet: Valor Coronet
Hands: Valor Gauntlets
Body: Adaman Cuirass
Legs: Adaman
Feet: Adaman
Belt: Warwolf Belt
Mantle: Knightly Mantle
Earrings: Hospitaler Earring and Drone Earring
Rings: Hercules Ring and Topaz Ring
Neck: Parade Gorget / Shield Torque
Ranged: Rosenbogen

Merits: Chivalry activated, 1 level of Critical Hit +, two unspent merits. Considering getting Guardian, or Enmity+

I've pretty much just been selling off my Adaman as I've been receiving Valor, to get by. I'm usually pretty poor, but I can buy what I need to. I'll usually buy the regular versions of gear, if the +1 is usually, you know, just +1, but 10x more expensive.

Thank you for reading.

[tuggler]

Re: Relic of a bygone era

Weapon: Joyeuse
Shield: Koenig Shield
Helmet: Valor Coronet
Hands: Valor Gauntlets
Body: Adaman Cuirass
Legs: Adaman
Feet: Adaman
Belt: Warwolf Belt
Mantle: Knightly Mantle
Earrings: Hospitaler Earring and Drone Earring
Rings: Hercules Ring and Topaz Ring
Neck: Parade Gorget / Shield Torque
Ranged: Rosenbogen

Hi, well there's a few bits of equipment you'd find a little handier. Personally, I think you'd be better of with your AF feet than with Adaman and the Drone Earring is due for an upgrade, perhaps to Mercenary Earring for a bit of VIT or an Insomnia Earring for a bit of MP and HP. Grab yourself a Harmonia's Torque to top up on enmity and macro that in for vokes, flashes and cures etc. If you can get a Jelly Ring you'll find that really handy too. A Bibiki Seashell is also quite nice to have (and is free!).

If you can afford, start getting some DD gear for WS's (Haubergeon, Amemet etc). Swap them in for WS's, which will also help with keeping hate, especially with Warcry and Sentinel up when you do them.

[Timian]

Re: Relic of a bygone era

Click my sig, and check my gear PLD gear setups.
Then match those as closely as you can.

[Sevv]

Re: Relic of a bygone era

lmao nin's sash right cuz thats a common item...

[Hankthetank]

Re: Relic of a bygone era

Click my sig, and check my gear PLD gear setups.
Then match those as closely as you can.

Wow, a bit full of yourself aren't you.

I call shinanigans. No one with that amount of dream gear would be so clueless as to how to dress themselves. While you gear is impecible your gear sets are embarassing flawed.

I'll respond to the OP in more detail later, but please disregard the claims and advice of Timian. I haven't seen such BS in a long time.

Sincerely,
Hankthetank

[Timian]

Re: Relic of a bygone era

No, it's true.
I'm dying to see what you'll come up with though,
mr "I tank in Valor" and "No Ridill for my WAR". *shrug*

[Lmnop]

Re: Relic of a bygone era

>.> Just get a haub and some woodsmans, yo. Make sure you have an equip swap macro. You can continue to tank pld/war just fine. Just change a few things out for the DD stuff, and when things get bad you swap back. Carry a couple types of food with you at all times -- Tank food, Sushi (Dorado's nice for this), and some meat dishes.

Part of the "Paladin Problem" is that so many want to command hate so solidly. But you have to realize that adaptation is key. It's not so bad if a melee has hate, assuming you have a /ma Cure <stpc> macro set up (you dream paladins do have quick means of curing allies, right?) and you Flash for them. Don't spend all your resources trying to get hate back on you. Ration your resources to support the party. If you "tanked" by never getting hate, and just having a kick-ass Flash cycle, I'd say that you did a damn good job.

Back to the DD concept, it's to help, not to make you incredible. If I can get 10-14k/hour with a pld tank who's still mostly turtle, then do I really need one who could sell his character to feed all of Ethiopia?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Relic of a bygone era

Not Lv.75 yet, but have you try the combination of more accuracy + enmity gear + haste gear?

I figure enmity+ gear is a natural with accuracy gear--your hits would connect more often, and get more enmity for each hit. Haste is also good for tanking--that Flash recast can never be short enough, and faster sword swings would re-enforce the effectiveness of accuracy and enmity gear.

If accuracy isn't much of an issue, then Dorado sushi will take care of it and add enmity. Haste is hard to pass by, though, and thankfully the Walahra Turban is easy to obtain--not absolutely sure if it's worth trading enmity+3 from Valor Coronet, but at least it's not too expensive to test.

[Hankthetank]

Re: Relic of a bygone era

Weapon: Joyeuse
Shield: Koenig Shield
Joy is an awesome sword and a fantastic start to a DD build. I'd get a Mach+1 for Enmity Tanking and a Company Sword for DDing.

Helmet: Valor Coronet
O Hat is a free Ex/Rare DD piece that is an excellent DD piece

Hands: Valor Gauntlets
Taressque Mitts are great for TPing in and can double if you ever use a fire resist build. Pallas are a fairly cheap WS piece that can double in a Max HP build.

Body: Adaman Cuirass
Hauby is the best DD piece here, Valor when you get it is fantastic.

Legs: Adaman
Royal Knights breeches are a fairly inexpensive DD piece Dusk trousers are a better but more expensive option.

Feet: Adaman
I'd stick to AF boots for normal tanking. Amir is an excellent DD piece and is free from assualt.

Belt: Warwolf Belt
Life, Potent and Swift belts are all excellent DD belts

Mantle: Knightly Mantle
Ameniet Mantle is a cheap and exceleent DD piece

Earrings: Hospitaler Earring and Drone Earring
Get a buckler for tanking, and I'd macro hospitaler earring in for cures only. THe rest of the time, drone is fine with a buckler. For DD Spike earrings are cheap and effective, Assualt Earring is a bit more pricey but offers Acc as well.

Rings: Hercules Ring and Topaz Ring
Woodsman for TP and Ruby for WSs. Flame if you are feeling sausy.

Neck: Parade Gorget / Shield Torque
Royal Guards Collar is cheap and a good TP piece, Chiv Chain is a bit better and Pcc is ideal.

Ranged: Rosenbogen
Not much in the way of major improvements here. Fernir Stone, Bibiki Shell, and Happy egg? are all free and situational pieces. A Tilphia Sting is the best DD piece or a Lighting Box as a cheap alternative.

Slowly build a DD build and as you do you will become more DD and less healer. For now Lmnop's advice is best, tank as much as you can and flash/cure to help out when otehrs take hate. Use what DD gear you have and contribute some damage to help kill the mobs faster.

/Derail

No, it's true.
I'm dying to see what you'll come up with though,
mr "I tank in Valor" and "No Ridill for my WAR". *shrug*

Implying my input is less valid because my War doesn't have a ridill on a Paladin forum really doesn't strenghten your stance nor discredit me at all.

You can insult Valor all you like but I'll take it over Gem anyday. It offers the same enmity and gives HP a far more useful stat for endgame tanking as opposed to Gem that gives MP. Or is the Vit you are going for? Nevermind the bonus effects on Valor like the MP on demand the Valor surcoat grants or the enhanced effect of Rampart and Sentinal. I like my Valor and if I am not /nin I wear it proudly.

In your HNM build you off-hand Joyeuse and use a suppa? Are you DD tanking Grands? Faf/Hogg? Aspid? It doesn't make alot of sence. You have Homam feet yet you dont use them for HNM tanking instead choosing Gem feet for 2 enmity. Dumping the suppa and wearing another Hades Earring+1 would make far more sence and would grant you more haste which is the foundation of /nin HNM tanking while maintaining the same Enmity. Cerb+1 is a sexah piece but a High Breath Mantle is cheaper and more functional giving you both more enmity and HP. Your choices are consistanly based around cost of equipment not effectiveness of equipment.

Your DD build is based around a Kclub. Having played with it myself, I'll assume your goal is fast TP gain and lots of Vorpals, yet you use a Pricely sword, which while expensive doesn't produce larger Vorpals than a Company Sword would, a far cheaper option. See the pattern yet? You wear Pallas and a Chiv chain, Trying to get more STR in you TP build? You lack the Acc to eat meat with your DD build especially offhanding a club, unless of course you want to tell me you merited sword and club or only XP in mire. Your entire TP build is all over the place, not enough haste to make a differance, not enough Attack to be effective with sushi and not enough Acc to be effective with meat. Whats most confusing is you have the gear to properly build these sets but you dont. Merman's earring once again is an expensive but odd choice, Assualt Earring is cheaper has only 1 less attack but offers Acc as well, its a cheaper better choice but you dont use it.

Your "lolHP" build isn't a pure HP build, and I'm not sure what the point of that set is beyond showing off M.Body. Same with your "lol/war" build. Why you would use Gem feet over AF+1 when you are using a shield is beyond me. If the 2 enmity is that imprtant to you there are better slots for it that sacrifce less then 12 shield skill. Why would you wear the Kings hands other than they are a Rare HQ piece? There are many more functional pieces hand pieces.

Your gear sets just dont make sence, they are barely functional and merely serve to show off what expensive gear you claim to have. Your advice doesn't help the OP with his question and even given the funds to purchase the gear you claim to have, one could easily build more fucntion and better preforming gear sets for far less gil.

Sincerely,
Hankthetank

[Timian]

Re: Relic of a bygone era

You know, I'm not disagreeing with what you just said.
These gear setups are pretty much "all over the place".
Reason being; Alla lets you make 6 setups. If I could, I'd make
different setups for each and every HNM/Mob type - but I can't.
The only reason I made that mish-mash is because together they give
a perception of what pieces I'm macroing in and out, depending on situation.
You know as well as I do that there's no such thing as a perfect build that
suits each and every situation.

And yeah, I have hangups about Valor over Gem because I just don't value HP anymore. I'm an elvaan with maxed HP merits, so I can stay above my "comfort zone" of 1500+ without much hassle at all, so I'd rather wear the MP. Especially since I'm /NIN most of the time, and don't really need the HP for much other than staying alive between shadows.

I'm not gonna argue with you though.
You were right about my alla profile being a mess,
but hopefully I've explained why that is now.

[Feba]

Re: Relic of a bygone era

Merits: Chivalry

Well there's your problem. Haven't you heard? Chivalry is dead.

[Hankthetank]

Re: Relic of a bygone era

You know, I'm not disagreeing with what you just said.
These gear setups are pretty much "all over the place".

And

I'm not gonna argue with you though.
You were right about my alla profile being a mess

In light of that and since we can agree the gear sets in your sig are ridiculous, perhaps you should refrain from giving advice like:

Click my sig, and check my gear PLD gear setups.
Then match those as closely as you can.

Yeah, you knew your gear set was flawed before I brought it to your attention. Sure ^^b

but hopefully I've explained why that is now

You haven’t. Your gears sets are truly drastically flawed, you fail to address the majority of my points (not that I think you can even back up your gear choices). I disliked your gear sets for reasons beyond you gear simply being “mish mashed”. Many of your pieces are merely expensive and easily replaced by cheaper better preforming pieces. You claim to not have enough room to make adequate profiles yet you have an “AFK” and a HP build profile. Nice try but I still stand by my original assessment of you.

And yeah, I have hangups about Valor over Gem because I just don't value HP anymore. I'm an elvaan with maxed HP merits, so I can stay above my "comfort zone" of 1500+ without much hassle at all, so I'd rather wear the MP. Especially since I'm /NIN most of the time, and don't really need the HP for much other than staying alive between shadows.

Not that I want to sit here and mud sling with you, but I do feel the need to clarify the above comment this for any up and coming Paladins since the above statement is a common rookie Paladin misconception.

In extended fights your MP is limited by the rate at which it can be replenished, not your Max MP. Your Max MP becomes irrelevant the second you finish casting your first spell since you should never hit full MP again for the duration of the fight. If you are sitting at full MP you are wasting MP and not keeping your hate threshold as high as it could be.

If you want to start a fight with some MP gear on and swap it our after you expend that MP that’s a great idea. If you want to swap some MP gear in before Chivalry, that’s smart playing and my hats off to you. But buying multi-million dollar gear for the sake of adding 10-15 points to your max MP, while bashing Valor and ignoring the other buffs it offers, is just plain asinine.

1500 is a survivable amount of HP if you mages have fantastic mages, but its still in the danger zone for a number of the harder mobs in the game and far from enough to consider wearing +MP gear instead of +HP gear full time.

Seriously, just stop giving advice, the more you type the more crap I see, and the less I am convinced you know anything about being an endgame Paladin.

Sincerely,

mr "I tank in Valor" and "No Ridill for my WAR".

[Timian]

Re: Relic of a bygone era

*shakes head*
Seriously, man. Lighten the F up.
Ever see this one before?



Cute, ain't it?

If you wanna discuss gear, sure - I'm all for it,
but getting worked up over it... not my style.
So just take a deep breath, and try to
relax when you type. Makes you seem like less
of a whiny bitch. Kthx.

Yeah, you knew your gear set was flawed before I brought it to your attention. Sure ^^b

Yeah, pretty much, cause see, like I said it's not about making
a perfect build profile for me. You gotta look at the entire picture,
something most people seem to understand.

...you fail to address the majority of my points. I disliked your gear sets for reasons beyond you gear simply being “mish mashed”. Many of your pieces are merely expensive and easily replaced by cheaper better preforming pieces. You claim to not have enough room to make adequate profiles yet you have an “AFK” and a HP build profile.

So yeah, your "point" is that you hate me because I like expensive gear.
Allright then. Doesn't really matter to me.
And yeah, I have an AFK profile as well as a HP profile.
What's wrong with that?
What I said was, there's not enough profiles to make gear sets for every individual NM/Mob. That's still true, regardless of me "wasting" two characters.
So let's see, I could delete those two and make "Fafnir Gear Setup" and "Bune Setup".
Yay, that's two mobs. What about the rest of them?
To make gear sets for everything you ever fight, you'd need 300 profiles.
What I said was true. Alla doesn't let you make enough characters to do that.

Not that I want to sit here and mud sling with you

That's pretty much all you've done so far.
I replied to a thread, in a perfectly neutral tone.
You disagreed with my reply, but instead of just saying that
you just started whining about my alla profiles.
That wasn't just off-topic, it was just you
trying to swing your e-peen around.

In extended fights your MP is limited by the rate at which it can be replenished, not your Max MP. Your Max MP becomes irrelevant the second you finish casting your first spell since you should never hit full MP again for the duration of the fight. If you are sitting at full MP you are wasting MP and not keeping your hate threshold as high as it could be.
If you want to start a fight with some MP gear on and swap it our after you expend that MP that’s a great idea. If you want to swap some MP gear in before Chivalry, that’s smart playing and my hats off to you. But buying multi-million dollar gear for the sake of adding 10-15 points to your max MP, while bashing Valor and ignoring the other buffs it offers, is just plain asinine.

1500 is a survivable amount of HP if you mages have fantastic mages, but its still in the danger zone for a number of the harder mobs in the game and far from enough to consider wearing +MP gear instead of +HP gear full time.

Yeah, the MP thing is true. I never said anything to discredit that, did I?
No, you made an assumption again, basically putting words into my mouth (again).
Once again, I gotta refer to something I've already said. *Sigh*
The character profiles do not show my macro pieces.
My Alla-profiles are not representative for everything I do in-game. Is this hard to understand? My tanking profile has a Gem Cuirass on it. Why? Because, like I said, I want my MP high and guess what; it gives MP - Valor doesn't (and yes, it's expensive, but seriously... Why do you even keep making that point? I can do whatever I want to, with my gil, can't I?).
After spending said MP however, not once did I say that I would keep that cuirass equipped. You just made that assumption. No, I'd be more likely to swap it out
for my K.Body. If I needed to use "Cover", sure swap in the damn Valor. I could even swap in the good, ol' Hauby+1 every once in a while.
You gotta listen to what I'm saying! Those Alla-profiles aren't set in stone.
I macro in 27% Haste every time I cast Utsusemi/Flash, even though
you won't see that much Haste in either of my character profiles.
Thanks to my LS, I have a ton of rare/ex as well as pricey HQ stuff.
In fact, once I manage to find a Cursed Cuirass -1 and get a Valor Cape to drop,
I'm retiring my PLD completely. Ares' would be nice, but I'm already
too sick and tired of FFXI to start collecting anything of the sort.

And then there's the HP issue again.
I'm getting kinda tired of having everything boil down to
a discussion of how much HP is "needed", but sure... I'll do it.
I've tanked with 1900HP and I've tanked with 1500HP.
Not once has that made a difference.
With a competent support party, you shouldn't need more than that.
I suppose you're also one of those people who go "loltaru HNMPLD",
because you know, they have alot of trouble getting to 1550HP without
sacrificing too much enmity/haste.
Personally, I've never died because of 1500HP not being enough.
There's a reason why that is my comfort zone. My mages are
able to keep me alive perfectly fine, with that amount.
To be quite honest, I get more of a feeling that you're clueless since you're still
living by the philosophy that HP > Everything else. If that was the case,
we'd still be running around in full Koenig and brick-walling everything we fight.

Seriously, just stop giving advice, the more you type the more crap I see, and the less I am convinced you know anything about being an endgame Paladin.

Seriously, just stop being a facist. The more you type, the more crap I see, and the less I am convinced you know anything about diversity or reading comprehension.
Honestly, just because
1. My Alla profiles are disorganized
2. I wear rare/expensive/HQ gear
3. I don't agree with your HP obsession
you're gonna start waving your e-peen around, and claim
to be better than me? Sure, suit yourself. I actually don't really care
what you think of me, since we're not even on the same server -
much less in the same LS. I'm never gonna have to work with you,
so why would your opinion of me matter?

If you can't stay on topic, at least try to keep
it a gear discussion. Or hell, let's expand, and
start sharing some tactics too. I don't mind.
Just don't try to make it personal. That's just retarded.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Relic of a bygone era

Well, the OP asked what should he do. You replied:

Click my sig, and check my gear PLD gear setups.
Then match those as closely as you can.

Which is not a very nice answer, since:

These gear setups are pretty much "all over the place".
Reason being; Alla lets you make 6 setups. If I could, I'd make
different setups for each and every HNM/Mob type - but I can't.

1. My Alla profiles are disorganized
2. I wear rare/expensive/HQ gear

You gave him a "disorganized" answer filled with lot's a difficult to follow ("rare/expensive/HQ gear") recommendations.

Hankthetank is overly fired up about your Allakhazam gear profiles, but the part about you giving not very good advice has some weight. If a person is lost, you shouldn't toss him disorganized pile of info and difficult to follow advise (e.g. very difficult to obtain gears), you know?

[Timian]

Re: Relic of a bygone era

Yeh, I'll agree to that, Itazura.
I just didn't feel like writing a long wall of text in the first place,
even though that's what I ended up having to do anyways. *sigh*