Taru Pld help

[dirtyclown]

Re: Taru Pld help

And where do you think that HP deficit comes from? It magically appears at 75?

It starts at level 1 and grows progressively wider as you gain levels - which means to stay on pace with other higher-HP races, you're going to have to spend some extra time on your gear.

This isn't an issue that you can just put off and worry about at level 75. It's an issue you (and everyone assigned to keep you alive) will have to deal with every time you take a hit.

But thanks for jumping to pointless and inaccurate conclusions.

I like how you mention that I jump to pointless and inaccurate conclusions and then do the same exact thing yourself. Do as I say and not as I do, right? It really shows the quality of your character. It also shows that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Face it, guy. Paladins are out of your realm of knowledge. By continuing this you're just going to make yourself look silly. The +HP you would get from a pair of Pigeon earrings is more than enough extra HP for quite awhile. There's other things that help out too further on down the road, since anything that's halfway Sentient realizes that we get more HP as we level (really, where did that come from anyway? Grasping at straws, maybe?). Seriously though, a Taru takes just as much damage as a Galka, it's not like the damage formula changes depending on your race. You need to stop acting like Tarus need special treatment to do anything that's not a mage job, they're just as tough as everyone else.

[Mog]

Re: Taru Pld help

I think we scared off the original poster. ;;

[Celeal]

Re: Taru Pld help

Assessment is the key factor for tanking. It is important to be honest with yourself when assessing these factors. You should not sell yourself short and yet you must not over estimate your own abilities.

If you have the mindset of a taru pld have serious problems for tanking, then you will have serious problem with tanking as a taru pld.

Take a look at your strong points and your weak points. Don't run away from you weak points, just accept it and deal with it. Treat those shortcoming as your chance to learn, to improve yourself.

Do not expect to tank in the best condition all the time. In my past parties I had been tanking under unfavorable conditions like overhunting, dangerous camp, link/pop/aggro, party members afk/diconnected, slacking backline, lack of refresh, crazy DD, etc. Sometimes there is no one's fault, but just bad luck. However, I learned a lot from those valuable experience, and learned not to be defeated by those obstacle.

Good luck for seeking your victory as taru PLD! /salute

[dirtyclown]

Re: Taru Pld help

If you have the mindset of a taru pld have serious problems for tanking, then you will have serious problem with tanking as a taru pld.

Best possible advice anyone could have given.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Taru Pld help

Icemage, dirtyclown: Can both of you just agree that good skills and decent gears will enable Tarutaru PLD's will do well in exp parties, though there's less margin for error for Tarutaru's due to their lower HP?

I think Icemage is emphasizing where Tarutaru PLD's are different, while dirtyclown is emphasizing how they largely the same as other PLD's... ^_^;

p.s. I know a very decent Tarutaru PLD--so good at tanking, I made him tank in a Quifim Island party as MNK/WAR. XD (No, I didn't get him killed.)

[Celeal]

Re: Taru Pld help

Since the issue of HP is brought up...

If the PLD max HP is 1000, and the mob can deal over 1000+ dmg in a special move. Well, the PLD:
1. Get the gear/food to boost HP over 1000 HP, or
2. Take the risk, maybe have stunner or barspell, or use Spartan Hoplon (Enchantment: "Phalanx"), shield bash, Rampart or Sentinel, /nin or /rdm, whatever.
3. Alternative? For exp. party maybe change camp? Or maybe share tanking using alternative party setup?
4. Accept the limitation and past on the job.

If the PLD have 1000 HP and the mob max attack move is something like 500 dmg, HP is not even an issue...

Guys, it is not rocket science, there is no need to scary the OP.

[dirtyclown]

Re: Taru Pld help

Icemage, dirtyclown: Can both of you just agree that good skills and decent gears will enable Tarutaru PLD's will do well in exp parties, though there's less margin for error for Tarutaru's due to their lower HP?

True, but at the same time they have a higher MP pool which balances out most of their HP related issues during an exp party setting, which is going to encompass alot of the player's time spent actually doing their job. Decent gear is a given, most people strive to get things that are at least par or slightly above par for their level, which is why I mentioned "standard" tanking gear.

I think Icemage is emphasizing where Tarutaru PLD's are different, while dirtyclown is emphasizing how they largely the same as other PLD's... ^_^;

The only reason why I'm still in this topic is because I'm trying to prevent the spread of misinformation. Icemage hints that the OP is destined to fail unless he turtles up and therefore makes himself a bad tank due to lower DoT and not taking enough damage to put that MP pool to use. A Taru Paladin might be "higher risk" than other races of Paladin, but they're exactly the same in practice.

[Icemage]

Re: Taru Pld help

True, but at the same time they have a higher MP pool which balances out most of their HP related issues during an exp party setting, which is going to encompass alot of the player's time spent actually doing their job. Decent gear is a given, most people strive to get things that are at least par or slightly above par for their level, which is why I mentioned "standard" tanking gear.

Higher MP pool does not counteract insufficient max HP. Of course you didn't even bother to read my points about why Taru PLDs differ from other races, but the truth is every race of Paladin performs exactly the same MP-wise once MP regeneration effects come into play, which leaves the stylistic differences down to max HP - which I pointed out have a dramatic effect on party dynamics.

It doesn't matter how much max MP you have during normal XP. You still have the same sources to recover MP as any other race; Auto-Refresh, Refresh, Evoker's Roll, Mage's Ballad I/II, Parade Gorget, Vermillion Cloak, Sanction. All races have equal access to these, and it is the amount of MP you recover that determines how effective your magic is, not how big your MP tank is.

During crisis situations, having a bit of extra MP is nice to get party members out of trouble, but once it's gone... it's gone, and you have to stop casting and wait for more MP just like everyone else.

The only reason why I'm still in this topic is because I'm trying to prevent the spread of misinformation. Icemage hints that the OP is destined to fail unless he turtles up and therefore makes himself a bad tank due to lower DoT and not taking enough damage to put that MP pool to use. A Taru Paladin might be "higher risk" than other races of Paladin, but they're exactly the same in practice.

Put what MP to use? A Taru PLD has no more MP to spend over time than a Galka PLD - he's still getting the same 3 MP per tick from Refresh, the same 1 MP per tick from Auto-Refresh, etc. Having more max MP doesn't make these effects any stronger for Tarutaru Paladins. Yes, he's got more in the tank to cover for emergencies - but he's also more likely to need that extra MP because he's going to hit dangerously low HP sooner.

The only job in the game where max MP matters in the slightest as far as standard performance is Red Mage, due to the presence of Convert. For every other spellcaster, be they a Paladin or Black Mage, their effectiveness revolves most heavily on the amount of MP they recover (and thus have available to spend).

And I'll thank you again to not speak for me. I've stated twice in this thread that Tarutaru Paladins do just fine when properly equipped. What you fail to understand is that it is more difficult to get to that "properly equipped" state as a Tarutaru than as other races.

P.S. I just adore how you resort to insults and ignorance when you can't be bothered to respond to logical posts. Thank you once again for hanging yourself with your own rope.


Icemage

[Murphie]

Re: Taru Pld help

But a higher MP pool will counteract the effects of a lower HP pool, because you have more opportunities to replenish that lost HP as the fight goes on. Sure, you'll still regen it at the same rate as any other PLD out there, but you've got a lot more wiggle room when starting from full.

[Icemage]

Re: Taru Pld help

But a higher MP pool will counteract the effects of a lower HP pool, because you have more opportunities to replenish that lost HP as the fight goes on. Sure, you'll still regen it at the same rate as any other PLD out there, but you've got a lot more wiggle room when starting from full.

Agreed. It does for the first few fights, but once you spend your "buffer", you're now no better off than a Paladin with lower MP. It's much the same argument as with BLM, WHM, or SMN - max MP doesn't mean much to any of those jobs aside from the crisis-management point of view - it's much more about MP recovery, and perks like Fast Cast or Blood Pact timer reduction or whatnot that separates the good gear from the bad, rather than how much MP any given piece of gear gives you.

The point is that if you find yourself relying on that extra buffer in every fight, it's not a sustainable reaction. Sooner or later you're going to run out of MP if you spend more than you regenerate naturally, and if that's the case a Tarutaru Paladin is no better than any other race in the magic department (and hopefully those are parties you'd want to avoid in any case). When things are going well, though, having less max HP affects your performance negatively as I pointed out previously.

I'll stress again that I'm not opposed at all to Tarutaru paladins and play with some of the best of the best - at end-game the Tarutaru Paladins in my HNMLS do just as well as any other race; but the reason they do is because they've spent a lot of time and thought about how they can best nullify their natural disadvantages through gear, food, and playing style. Good playing skills can of course offset much of the HP deficit - being good at not overcuring, knowing how to time Flash, Provoke, and your various JAs like Shield Bash and Sentinel, etc. all play a part in making a successful paladin. But if you're looking at just raw potential, Tarutaru paladins play with the deck stacked against them somewhat, and you do have to work to even the odds.


Icemage

[bikkebakke]

Re: Taru Pld help

I'd have to agree entirely with Icemage on this one. Yes they have a larger MP pool, but at the same time they need the larger MP pool because they drop to red and yellow health alot faster than others with higher HP. This not only puts a stress on the PLD himself, but also on the other party members trying to keep him alive. Also, I have not read a single post where Icemage has said that a Tarutaru PLD would need to "turtle up." He has simply stated that they would need boosts to HP... turtling up would normally hint at a boost to vit/def. Honestly, it seems like this entire thread has just been going in circles where everyone is really agreeing with each other but in different ways. EVERYONE in this discussion has stated that a Tarutaru can make a fine PLD. So all in all this thread has been beat to death unnecessarily. To sum it all up: Tarutaru can be excellent PLD. They just need to boost their disadvantages a little bit to capitalize on their advantages. Just like any other race.

[TenchiHawkwing]

Re: Taru Pld help

Agreed. It does for the first few fights, but once you spend your "buffer", you're now no better off than a Paladin with lower MP. It's much the same argument as with BLM, WHM, or SMN - max MP doesn't mean much to any of those jobs aside from the crisis-management point of view - it's much more about MP recovery, and perks like Fast Cast or Blood Pact timer reduction or whatnot that separates the good gear from the bad, rather than how much MP any given piece of gear gives you.

The point is that if you find yourself relying on that extra buffer in every fight, it's not a sustainable reaction. Sooner or later you're going to run out of MP if you spend more than you regenerate naturally, and if that's the case a Tarutaru Paladin is no better than any other race in the magic department (and hopefully those are parties you'd want to avoid in any case). When things are going well, though, having less max HP affects your performance negatively as I pointed out previously.

I'll stress again that I'm not opposed at all to Tarutaru paladins and play with some of the best of the best - at end-game the Tarutaru Paladins in my HNMLS do just as well as any other race; but the reason they do is because they've spent a lot of time and thought about how they can best nullify their natural disadvantages through gear, food, and playing style. Good playing skills can of course offset much of the HP deficit - being good at not overcuring, knowing how to time Flash, Provoke, and your various JAs like Shield Bash and Sentinel, etc. all play a part in making a successful paladin. But if you're looking at just raw potential, Tarutaru paladins play with the deck stacked against them somewhat, and you do have to work to even the odds.


Icemage

I don't know about you, but I've leveled Paladin. Three times in fact, working on an Elvaan PLD Lv70 right now. I've played Tarutaru and Galka PLD up to equal(actually higher) levels, and I can tell you right now, with the exception of HNM possibly(which I was never big on) Tarutaru PLD have no notable downsides.

Less HP and VIT mean next to nothing in EXP. Sorry to break it to you but the extra MP DOES matter, with all this MP refresh available I find myself getting back to full during EXP chains sometimes, especially in the parties with faster kills.

For PLD at least, EXP and NM tanking aren't even close. Not in the least, because of the fact that in EXP you need to worry about keeping resources saved up for the next couple of fights. Sometimes you might want to provoke at the end of a fight because the SAM just pulled hate with a freak 1k Gekko and Darkness chain, but if you do, you can't voke the next one. Same with MP, if you know how to manage your MP you end up with excess if you play the way I do.

Now, there may be limitations at endgame, but that's not my area of expertise, and as you said, you know some guys who do well enough.

[Icemage]

Re: Taru Pld help

I don't know about you, but I've leveled Paladin. Three times in fact, working on an Elvaan PLD Lv70 right now. I've played Tarutaru and Galka PLD up to equal(actually higher) levels, and I can tell you right now, with the exception of HNM possibly(which I was never big on) Tarutaru PLD have no notable downsides.

I didn't say (and have never said) that Tarutaru Paladins can't be great. They can. They're just different than other races.

Less HP and VIT mean next to nothing in EXP. Sorry to break it to you but the extra MP DOES matter, with all this MP refresh available I find myself getting back to full during EXP chains sometimes, especially in the parties with faster kills.

Less VIT I couldn't care less about. A few points of damage more or less isn't going to matter when that fistful of damage is a small percentage of your overall damage taken... and it would take an extreme swing in DEF to make a visible dent in damage most of the time too.

Extra MP Refresh would get you back to full regardless of what race you are though - you're still spending the same MP one way or another; as long as you're staying within your means for MP recovery, you're not going to have any problems no matter what race you are.

I'm mostly taking issue with the idea that Tarutaru paladins somehow magically have more MP to spend over time than other races. Unless you spend significant amounts of time at full MP with Refresh effects running, you're not "wasting" MP - and for that matter it isn't like non-Taru races can't wear +MP bonus gear temporarily to boost their maximum capacity for just such occasions.

For PLD at least, EXP and NM tanking aren't even close. Not in the least, because of the fact that in EXP you need to worry about keeping resources saved up for the next couple of fights. Sometimes you might want to provoke at the end of a fight because the SAM just pulled hate with a freak 1k Gekko and Darkness chain, but if you do, you can't voke the next one. Same with MP, if you know how to manage your MP you end up with excess if you play the way I do.

See my comment above about +MP gears to save for rainy days. I use the same trick on my mage jobs to buy a little extra insurance.

Thing is, with +MP gears, your other party members aren't going to react and say "Whoah the PLD now only has 120/150 MP and not 120/250MP, we're in trouble!". But for a WHM/RDM/SMN/BLU who's trying to heal you, they're going to react very differently when you are 800/900 instead of 800/1100. 800/900 means they deliberately have to let you get down below 700 before considering casting Cure III. 800/1100 means they can fire off that Cure III now if they're not expecting you to, and not have to worry about overcuring.

Now, there may be limitations at endgame, but that's not my area of expertise, and as you said, you know some guys who do well enough.

End-game Taru PLD works just fine - again, with the caveat of decent gear. Most things that are going to 1 or 2 shot you are going to do it no matter what race you are (Tiamat with Mighty Strikes up, for instance). The above comments about max HP still apply though - I find it much more stressful to keep a 1200HP (mediocre Taru PLD 75) tank alive in most end-game activities than one who has 1800HP (well equipped Galka PLD 75). Lucky for me the Taru PLDs in my LS all are in the 1400++ range.


Icemage

[Malacite]

Re: Taru Pld help

Only use RSE on certain slots though, such as Hands and Feet. You do not want to use it on the Body or legs due to the low defense ratings.

[vampz]

Re: Taru Pld help

I am right now saving up to by Hope Earrings +1 and i was woundering if they are the earrings i should be saving up for, i no i should be going for HP+ items due to lack of hp but is there somethin better?