What do Paladin's do wrong?

[Raydeus]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

*maybe off topic* Does the Mazurka have to land on a lot of people for it to generate a lot of hate? I have seen it in action and I have seen the amount of hate it can get in a short amount of time, but I was just wondering how exactly it works.

If it doesn't land on the party is it really weak?

I think Mazurka works the same way Warcry does in that the more people it hits the more hate you get on you. Not sure about it but from what I've seen it does seem that way.



PS > I thanked Armando because that's the best looking avatar I've seen in a long time. Can you share the full pic? (Please)

[Rai]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

Hm. This is a toughie. In my opinion, being a PLD/WAR in a traditional EXP party is a very easy role to play. Let's be honest - it doesn't take a genius to Provoke every 30 seconds, Flash every 37, throw some Cure III's around, mash your JA macros when you lose hate, and not use up all your MP. If you can tell that a given Paladin flat out sucks that person probably hasn't got a clue about the game in general, not just the Paladin job. Just about the only habit unique to Paladin that would warrant calling a player a bad Paladin would be going into overhate in a situation in which someone else needs to turn the mob *cough SATA cough*.
Because of that, and the fact that when I'm taking up a job that isn't PLD I'm usually tanking anyways or just soloing, I've hardly had any negative experiences with other Paladins. So, instead of mentioning things you might catch a bad PLD doing, or funny anecdotes of bad parties, I'll mention a few things a good PLD does.
- A good Paladin uses Cover often when he loses hate, and politely negotiates with the DDs so that the whole alignment process runs smoothly.
- A good Paladin can save his JAs by knowing when he's lost hate by only a little, and turning the mob with a Cure, Flash, or Provoke instead.
- A good Paladin understands that losing hate is inevitable.
- A good Paladin understands that shadows are superior to simply taking hits in the face, and shares his tanking duty with the NINs and WAR/NINs, either accidentally or deliberately. That is, a good PLD understands that if the WAR/NIN just took hate, it's better to let him use his shadows and save the healer some MP, than turning the mob immediately and taking those 6 hits himself, and on top of that possibly wasting JAs in order to turn the mob. As a matter of fact, I encourage the WAR/NINs in my parties to turn the mob from time to time.
- A good Paladin doesn't pester the mages for Haste and Refresh; he (or she) asks for it politely, and is grateful when he/she gets them.
- A good Paladin understands why Flash is an incredibly wonderful spell, and encourages White Mages to Flash as much as possible too.
- A good Paladin understands the finer points of hate and targets, and knows how to tank through multiple mobs simultaneously.
- A good Paladin tries to learn as much as possible about the game in general.
- A good Paladin understands that the word "tank" is nothing but a label, and that the Paladin job is a lot more versatile than that. In other words, a good Paladin understands that there's more to it than just whoring VIT and ignoring everything else, and will change his gear according to wether he's fighting VTs or high ITs. On VTs, we can take a much more balanced approach and actually focus on our offense to a certain extenct.
- A good Paladin can line up properly when working with THFs and BRDs/CORs.
- A good Paladin understands that dying first isn't always the smartest option.
Hope that helps :3

You make a couple good points. But a couple points are entirely out in left field.

I leveled PLD before the RNG nerf, before the changes to shield skill, so I feel a lot of PLDs have it a bit easy now.

"A good Paladin understands that shadows are superior to simply taking hits in the face, and shares his tanking duty with the NINs and WAR/NINs, either accidentally or deliberately. That is, a good PLD understands that if the WAR/NIN just took hate, it's better to let him use his shadows and save the healer some MP, than turning the mob immediately and taking those 6 hits himself, and on top of that possibly wasting JAs in order to turn the mob. As a matter of fact, I encourage the WAR/NINs in my parties to turn the mob from time to time."

As far as NIN goes, past lvl 37 a party needs 1 tank. As a PLD I refused invites to parties that expected me to dual tank with a NIN and I have refuesed invites to parties as a NIN where I was told there was a PLD. There are other people seeking so make a proper party and let the NIN deal with being a Tank on his own and you do the same.

"- A good Paladin doesn't pester the mages for Haste and Refresh; he (or she) asks for it politely, and is grateful when he/she gets them."

Everyone in a party pulls their own weight! RDMs refresh the PLD, that's part of their job, either the RDM or the WHM haste the tank that is pasrt of their job. Do PLDs get a thank you everytime they voke or flash?

And a good PLD recognizes when a THF is slow on his SATA and the 1st voker takes a huge pounding. As a PLD that was my most annoying and aggrivating situation. The 1st voker getting hammered because of a slow THF waiting on a little TP to SATA WS instead of just SATA. When a 1st voker is getting to orange HP I voke and then I have to listen to a THF bitch and moan I blew the SATA. Damn straight I did and I'll do it over and over again if you don't do it fast.

Several times I even told the THF go ahead and SATA onto the 1st voker and SC I'll get hate back. And I always did.

Every PLD out there who strives to be the best they can be has been told they are the greatest PLD by other players. I can't even count the number of times I have been told that by RNGs or BLMs who could not believe I held hate through massive damage or got hate back so quickly after massive damage.

There are poor players leveling all jobs, they just stick out more when they level PLD or NIN.

[Keon]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

I am a Taru PLD and feel we have the best advantage of holding hate above all. Our large MP pool gives a great edge with the hate building spells we have in our arsenal. MP is where I have concerns with the last few PLD I have partied with while leveling my RDM. I have noticed a trend of PLD not resting between pulls and watching their MP almost depeleted when the next wave begins. I always drop a tell to ask what their logic is behind not resting and I always get the same answer, "Want to save TP". To me this is unacceptable. For PLD our MP, not TP, is the core of holding hate. I always considered resting between mobs a must even with a RDM or BRD. When you don't you quickly become a burden on the healer(s) and even worse,you become a ineffective tank. Spirits Within is nice to use due to the fact the PLD does real damage. You have to see the bigger picture of being a PLD, we are there to recieve the pain, not give it. If you want to rely on WS to hold hate then you should think about switching to NIN.

[Rai]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

There comes a point where depending on party make up and the prey you are fighting where your tactics must adapt to the situation. Yes PLD needs MP to keep hate but a couple extra ticks in the few seconds it takes to pull in some zones is hardly worth the effort. And certainly not worth switching to Dark Staff and dumping TP.

I partied with a SAM who was a friend a great deal and Swift Blade -> Tachi Gekko = Darkness + MB and we (the party) would destroy Mobs fast.

And as for race, no race has and advantage in keeping hate over player skill. No one in the world can tell me a Taru PLD has an advantage over me in keeping hate based on their MP that trumps my skill that is BS. Sure there may be more skilled players than me but they could be of any race.

[Keon]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

Very true about adjusting to all situations. My examples were during time spans when the PLD could have regained a good amount of mp between pulls. I should have noted that.
I agree that player skill plays a large role in how we hold hate. With that being said I can also say that race does play a role in this equation as well. The extra MP can the difference between life or death as well as limited down-time. At the beginning of a exp chain there is no question that race has no effect on player skill. I am referring to when your chain is at three and the next pull is coming up. See which race can do a better job retaining hate without eating all your mages mp to keep you alive.

[Davitron3000]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

I am a Taru PLD and feel we have the best advantage of holding hate above all. Our large MP pool gives a great edge with the hate building spells we have in our arsenal. MP is where I have concerns with the last few PLD I have partied with while leveling my RDM. I have noticed a trend of PLD not resting between pulls and watching their MP almost depeleted when the next wave begins. I always drop a tell to ask what their logic is behind not resting and I always get the same answer, "Want to save TP". To me this is unacceptable. For PLD our MP, not TP, is the core of holding hate. I always considered resting between mobs a must even with a RDM or BRD. When you don't you quickly become a burden on the healer(s) and even worse,you become a ineffective tank. Spirits Within is nice to use due to the fact the PLD does real damage. You have to see the bigger picture of being a PLD, we are there to recieve the pain, not give it. If you want to rely on WS to hold hate then you should think about switching to NIN.

Sorry, I just don't think that is true. There is more than one way to be an effective tank. Also, as a Galka I have a limited mp pool, but I rarely had to rest post 41 (refresh) and I did rely on some damage to help me hold hate.

There comes a point where depending on party make up and the prey you are fighting where your tactics must adapt to the situation. Yes PLD needs MP to keep hate but a couple extra ticks in the few seconds it takes to pull in some zones is hardly worth the effort. And certainly not worth switching to Dark Staff and dumping TP.
I partied with a SAM who was a friend a great deal and Swift Blade -> Tachi Gekko = Darkness + MB and we (the party) would destroy Mobs fast.
And as for race, no race has and advantage in keeping hate over player skill. No one in the world can tell me a Taru PLD has an advantage over me in keeping hate based on their MP that trumps my skill that is BS. Sure there may be more skilled players than me but they could be of any race.

QFT.

I feel I can hold hate as well any other race of Paladin regardless of my mp pool. I am not saying that a big mp pool isn't a good thing, but I don't think that is the only thing that goes into being able to hold hate well.

[FranckKnight]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

Remember that Hate is gained and loss the same for all races.

Gain hate :
-Doing Damage (Advantage Elvaan and Galka)
-Provoke (Same for all)
-Flash (More MP for Tarus, but still the same recast time anyway)
-Curing (Advantage to Tarus for MP, Elvaan for MND)

Lose Hate :
-Getting damaged by the mob
---> This means higher Vit = less damage = Less hate loss. Which means that Galka have the advantage.
-Hate reset moves
-Hate loss over time

So if you take it race by race :

Galka/Elvaan : More Vit means less Hate loss. Less MP means "potential" less Hate gain. Less damage = Less need for Cures, which balances the need for MP.

Tarus : Less HP and Vit means they need to Cure themselves more often, which balances their higher MP pool.

Hume : Balance of Vit, HP and MP.

Mithra : More or less Hume, with slightly more Agi, thus slightly better evasion, which offsets the slightly lower Vit.

This is a very 'quick and dirty' list, but you get the point. I don't believe that any race are better at PLD, just different approaches to the 'same problem'. Tarus will be often seen trading their MP for more HP, doesn't that counter the whole 'Tarus have more MP' point? Even if they do that, they still have lower Vit anyway.

[Keon]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

Sorry, I just don't think that is true. There is more than one way to be an effective tank. Also, as a Galka I have a limited mp pool, but I rarely had to rest post 41 (refresh) and I did rely on some damage to help me hold hate.



QFT.

I feel I can hold hate as well any other race of Paladin regardless of my mp pool. I am not saying that a big mp pool isn't a good thing, but I don't think that is the only thing that goes into being able to hold hate well.

I agree that you can hold hate well without a large MP pool and that it is not the only thing that plays into holding hate. I never contested this.
What I am saying is over longer periods of time (chains) the races with smaller mp pools can have problems keeping up without resting to be just as effective. The majority of our hate comes from spells which use MP.

[Rai]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

Skill is greater than all other things.

I am sure there are others who may have greater skill and better gear, but I always try my best to do my job and I take it seriously.

The extra MP can the difference between life or death as well as limited down-time.

Extra HP can too.

I am referring to when your chain is at three and the next pull is coming up. See which race can do a better job retaining hate without eating all your mages mp to keep you alive.

3, I had no problems with getting to chain 5 and 6 consistently as an Elvaan PLD and it is often the puller who'd make of break how far we got not my MP or the Mages MP.

With my VIT and HP I was able to tank up to 3 mobs when a puller linked and mages could not sleep the adds. And again as far as hate goes, I pissed off many THFs when I would tell them PLDs don't need THFs and would have them SATA + WS onto a DD and the mob would either not even turn or turn back to me on my next voke.

So again if you think you somehow have an advantage with hate as a Taru PLD you are merely feeding yourself a falsehood in compensation for the natural drawbacks a Taru PLDs has with their low VIT, HP, STR.

Stop deluding yourself and misleading others. Any race can be a good PLD, but it's the player that makes a great PLD.

what does QFT mean?

[Keon]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

Tarus will be often seen trading their MP for more HP, doesn't that counter the whole 'Tarus have more MP' point? Even if they do that, they still have lower Vit anyway.

Tarus who swap MP for HP need a lesson playing the Taru PLD. I always used VIT, AGI, and Enmity gear.

[Rai]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

You are what lvl PLD?

[Davitron3000]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

Lose Hate :
-Getting damaged by the mob
---> This means higher Vit = less damage = Less hate loss. Which means that Galka have the advantage.
-Hate reset moves
-Hate loss over time

Don't forget about this in addition to vit - (from another thread)

One thing we shouldn't forget is that when we get hit, hate is lost based on the damage taken/your HP ratio, so the more HP you have, the less hate is lost, thus helping w/ enmity.

==============================================================

what does QFT mean?

QFT = Quoted for Truth.

[Celeal]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

IMHO, it is about how fast the PLD (plus his party support) use his MP vs. how fast the PLD (and his party support) can recover the MP being used. The maximum MP of PLD is not necessary the deciding factor.

If the PLD (and his party support) can break even his MP usage and recovery, while generating enough hate at the same time, then it is efficient.

Enough MP means enough.

[Keon]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

Differences are the joy of this game my friend. This is a matter of opinion. There is nothing false about my posts. I never said that the others races were bad at holding hate or that player skill wasn't a factor. I feel the MP gives the Taru an advantage. I would glady take my lower VIT, HP, and STR for the higher MP, AGI, and DEX. It is much easier to replace the VIT/STR without defense loss through gear then MP.

With my VIT and HP I was able to tank up to 3 mobs when a puller linked and mages could not sleep the adds. And again as far as hate goes, I pissed off many THFs when I would tell them PLDs don't need THFs and would have them SATA + WS onto a DD and the mob would either not even turn or turn back to me on my next voke.

I also have taken mutiple mobs and walked away. It it not a difficult situation to handle by a good PLD. Same goes for the THF and the SATA.

[Rai]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

thanks, Davitron3000.

I believe any race can do any job well and the defining factor for greatness comes from the player.

I do not consider myself the greatest PLD. I do not even consider Elvaan to be the greatest PLDs. I know my strengths and I know my weaknesses.

There are always going to be those who know more than me, who have done more than me. I can only strive to do my best.