What do Paladin's do wrong?

[Davitron3000]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

I find it interesting that a lot of times a tank gets a lot of the blame for a party being bad. Sometimes I think it seems like the tank's fault and it isn't.

For example, my friend was leveling a lower level job in a party with a pld:

Friend: "Man tell this Paladin how to tank. We can't chain because he keeps running out of mp and having to rest."

Me: "How long are your fights?"

Friend: "They are lasting quite a while. I am having trouble hitting the mob, but we are getting a ton of exp per kill, lol"

Me: "..."

Anyways, enjoy the compliment. You will have your good days and sometimes you will have your bad days. I have tanked one day in a party and done great, only to tank the next day in a party and have people say I was n00b. (ever have those days when you just can't seem to time your cures and get interrupted constantly? lol)

[FranckKnight]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

Defender becomes very arbitrary after a while, especially when you get int he 60s-70s where it becomes more difficult to keep the hate because of the very high damage dealers, even with PLD AF that has lots of Enmity+. On the other hand, most of them also use Ninja sub, so they can avoid damage for a while.

The problem is with Defender, its only useful if the monster is on you, it becomes counter-productive if the monster isn't since it lowers your attack power. If the monster isn't on you, you want to make more damage, to get a bit more hate between your Provoke/Flash timers. If you find yourself losing hate too often, it might actually be easier to tank without Defender.

So it depends on your teammates in that aspect. If you can keep the monster reliably on you all the time, Defender is great. You'll see this happen more as you get closer to 75, in Merit parties as well. Imps, for example, with their Amnesia and Silence pretty much gimps a PLD down to nothing anyway, so might as well get a little more attack power in those cases.

What it boils down the rest of the time is how well a PLD can keep hate, a smart use of his abilities like Cover and using his Cure spells well.

Side note on Curing, its sometimes difficult for a PLD to cure himself reliably. Some mobs have fast attacks that makes it harder to get a Cure out. In those cases I prefer using Cure right after Flash. Also if you have a WHM that is hard at work, because you need to time your Cures you'll find that often your WHM got his Cure out before you, and that yours heal a sub-par amount, making it wasted MP.

I'd say that PLD is one of the most 'case to case' jobs in the game. Depending on the DD/Curing abilities, skills and attention of your teammates, you might find yourself not suing Cure nor Defender at all, as mentionned, nor be able to keep the monster attacking you all the time. It doesn't make you a bad Tank, people need to realize that Hate Management is a PARTY collaboration, not just the PLD's contribution.

[Kurb]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

One of my worst experiences was in Crawlers Nest with a cocky lil' Taru BLM told him to stay back and not to do any "big ass spells" so about really 5 fast fights later forget the exp but it was good he goes on about how he can solo better exp and we argru about his logic:
Fast & safe=Average EXP Vs 1 long hard fight for 200
Eventually I won out and stated that in the time it took to argru this we would of earned 150 EXP minimal.
He got ratty and half way through the fight went out and chained 2 Workers he died and his ls buddy started fighting em too and died leaving me to tank 2.25 mobs with no zone in sight.I died and deleveled but the day was won so yay

[FranckKnight]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

Fast & safe=Average EXP Vs 1 long hard fight for 200

That is more or less true.

What a party wants is getting the highest exp that they can handle safely and fast.

Optimally, parties don't want to hit 200 exp mobs, they want NEAR 200, like 175-192 exp per fight. 200 exp usually means that the mob was worth more than 200, but the cap on exp per fight limited it to 200, thus it was harder than its worth.

If there is no mobs that can be relatively safely killed that would give near-200, the best thing is to take mobs that give as much exp without being too hard and with minimum downtime. Resting for a long time between all battles isn't a good sign.

[Celeal]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

That is more or less true.

What a party wants is getting the highest exp that they can handle safely and fast.

Optimally, parties don't want to hit 200 exp mobs, they want NEAR 200, like 175-192 exp per fight. 200 exp usually means that the mob was worth more than 200, but the cap on exp per fight limited it to 200, thus it was harder than its worth.

If there is no mobs that can be relatively safely killed that would give near-200, the best thing is to take mobs that give as much exp without being too hard and with minimum downtime. Resting for a long time between all battles isn't a good sign.

Everyone in the party need to be very good at their job in order to chain 5 for mob that gives 170+ exp, especially for camps in pre-ToAU area. If you are tanking in those rare and precious parties, be prepare to lose hate Those parties will have great puller and insane DDs.

[Eauijhkuu]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

I dunno if you said BRD as a mistake, but I promise you that a BRD is the ultimate hate holder.

I usually mean what I say. With purpose. And Semiotic irony.

Even if this PLD lost hate to a BRD Cyclone WS. (HEAD. SHOT.)
Had the PLD voked whenever his recast timer was up,
With the help of THF's TA.
If he even so much as flashed the mob during that entire party.
I find it hard to believe that a BRD will grab hate from a 'good' PLD. Even if you did sub WAR.

And that is why I love the PLD I static with;
I can basically land an SATA to begin with, and then SATA+WS on a DD, and hate won't flinch. Same with SATA+WS on PLD for closing SCs. That is the safest way for a BLM to ever use AM as a burst.

And I'll bet my gil on that.
A good PLD understands how valuable real hate control is.

[FranckKnight]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

Everyone in the party need to be very good at their job in order to chain 5 for mob that gives 170+ exp, especially for camps in pre-ToAU area. If you are tanking in those rare and precious parties, be prepare to lose hate Those parties will have great puller and insane DDs.

That's why I said 'optimally'. In reality you almost never see a chain 5 until ToAU, or rather level 50s, because I did see chains before ToAU was out. ToAU just made it ridicuously easier to do. Its more normal to see Chain 1-3 in the levels 30-50 that are worth near 200. Chain 4-5 is more rare.

Optimally you want mobs that don't go over 200 exp, so that you don't waste effort over exp lost because of the exp cap per fight, that's all I meant. Since every IT monster will check as IT no matter if they are 10 or 20 levels over you, getting exactly 200 exp mobs is hard to judge. Once you find a good camp with mobs near 200, you should keep it simply.

[Celeal]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

That's why I said 'optimally'. In reality you almost never see a chain 5 until ToAU, or rather level 50s, because I did see chains before ToAU was out. ToAU just made it ridicuously easier to do. Its more normal to see Chain 1-3 in the levels 30-50 that are worth near 200. Chain 4-5 is more rare.

Optimally you want mobs that don't go over 200 exp, so that you don't waste effort over exp lost because of the exp cap per fight, that's all I meant. Since every IT monster will check as IT no matter if they are 10 or 20 levels over you, getting exactly 200 exp mobs is hard to judge. Once you find a good camp with mobs near 200, you should keep it simply.

I agree with you

The mob's level and the type of mob is an consideration too. IT Lesser Colbri (Spelling) in ToAU is a lot easier than IT Robber Carb in Cap of Terrgain, even if both give near 200 exp for level 56 party. It is sux for trying to kill the Carb that buff every 10 seconds, while we don't even need to eat food to kill Lesser Colbri

Once the issue of hate and downtime is solved, the xp is determined by how fast can the party kill the mob~

[FranckKnight]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

I agree with you
The mob's level and the type of mob is an consideration too. IT Lesser Colbri (Spelling) in ToAU is a lot easier than IT Robber Carb in Cap of Terrgain, even if both give near 200 exp for level 56 party. It is sux for trying to kill the Carb that buff every 10 seconds, while we don't even need to eat food to kill Lesser Colbri
Once the issue of hate and downtime is solved, the xp is determined by how fast can the party kill the mob~

Its the same reason why we kill Lizards for example in the dunes, rather thatn Goblins that roam the same area. At that level Lizard's main move is Poison, which is easily dealt with.

Goblins on the other hand go boom, and level 10-15 those are mortal. Sure they suicide, but that's an off chance that you cannot count on. You'll pat yourself on the back when it happens when the party is in bad shape, but that's it.

Goblins are to be considered like the Damselflys at that point, Cursed Sphere can do a number on the party.

That's why we have 'prime leveling spots' that are compromised of the same mobs usually. Those mobs have been targetted as the easiest to kill at that particular level.

Why do people go to the Jungles when there are mobs for level 25-32 elsewhere? Because Mandragoras have a reputation of being squishy and relatively weak in attack power, despite their perma-double attack.

Why do people go to ToAU once they reach some point in the 50s? Because mobs like Colibris are squishy and have no dangerous moves beside eating your food effect and your TP, which on a decent tank doesn't matter whatsoever.

Why do every 70+ parties try to camp on top of each other in Caedarva Mire for Imps? Because despite giving Amnesia and Silence status, they are killed on normal attacks alone effortlessly. Low defense = Fast Kill = High Chains.

The type of mob is also more or less determined by the party setup. Have you ever tried to tank those Mandragoras as a Ninja? Ugh, I hate the jungles. It takes barely two rounds to take the Shadows down. That's why I prefer PLD in many ways.

But when we killed Goblins, two Ninjas tanking together aws amazing to watch. WHm only had to cast Regen once in a while, and a Curaga here and there for the occasional Bomb damage, the rest of the time the Goblins were completly tied up.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

In reality you almost never see a chain 5 until ToAU, or rather level 50s, because I did see chains before ToAU was out.

Um... huh?

Anyway, under Lv.50, even with slightly unbalanced group, chain #5 isn't that hard if the party isn't over hunting or competing for monsters with others. My static of PLD, BLU, SAM, RDM, BRD, WHM gets a healthy mix of chain #4 and #5, despite having only two damage dealers in party.

Lv.38-43 Misareaux Coast (Bigclaw/Makara)
Lv.43-46 Labyrinth of Onzozo (Cockatrice)
Lv.46-50 Garlaige Citadel (Funnel Bats/Chamber Beetle)

Those are the places where we exp'ed lately; the hardest to chain location was Garlaige Citadel, because of the competition for monsters.

Note: A good puller is incredibly important for chains; we, er, forced a career WHM to pull on SAM for us, and as he got better, our chains went longer. Now, he's pretty much the best puller I've ever had.

* * *

Good Paladins keep monsters from clubbering other party members, especially the half-sized, soft belly mages. And, they do that while not creating long downtime. Who cares how they do that as long as they do? <_<;

Bad Paladins... hmm. I remember a few who:
- Use very outdated armor, claiming poverty.
- Use DD or random gear while eating meat mithkabob.
- Do not use MP or job abilities; 'voke only.
- Use too much MP and does not rest.

Usually, the bad ones I've had do at least one of the above, and usually more than one. The end result is that either the mages have to cure dump on them, or everyone else in the party.


* * *

I lied about not caring how good PLD do what they do... The SAM in my perma is now doing so much damage on Berserk + Tachi: Jinpu, that I'm have a great deal of difficulty keeping the monsters off him afterwards. Still working on how to solve that one; I want to be one of the good Paladins...

[Celeal]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

Hell yea, after the introduction of Hasso, I think SAM's hate is on the same level as MNK now Wait until Tachi: Yukikaze, you will feel the hate even more, kekekeke :D

Seigan + Third Eye is very nice, btw. it is like a mini Utsusemi: Ichi ^^b

[Armando]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

I find it hard to believe that a BRD will grab hate from a 'good' PLD. Even if you did sub WAR.

I know it's not a real EXP situation, but KoukiRyu does have a point about Mazurka. I've read of BRD/NINs generating enough hate to successfully tank some HNMs simply because of Raptor and Chocobo Mazurka. I haven't seen it first-hand but I wouldn't doubt that if a BRD really wanted to show off and be stupid, he/she could rip hate off of a PLD. Other than that, I have to agree; under normal EXP party circumstances, a good PLD shouldn't have trouble holding hate against a BRD.

I lied about not caring how good PLD do what they do... The SAM in my perma is now doing so much damage on Berserk + Tachi: Jinpu, that I'm have a great deal of difficulty keeping the monsters off him afterwards. Still working on how to solve that one; I want to be one of the good Paladins...

I hear good things about Hasso + Third Eye, though I haven't seen that in action either. In any case, if it's as good as I hear, don't worry too much if your SAM buddy grabs hate, as long as you don't take too long to get it back. After all, the enhanced Third Eye is strongest when it's just been used. In any case, aside from Cover, try to coordinate so your and/or the WHM's Flash will be ready shortly after he uses his WS to buy time as well. Also, remember that if you have TP, while it often isn't enough on its own, using your WS for hate is a good way to tip the scales in your favor. If a hit does sneak through, take advantage of it and toss the SAM a Cure III.

Best-case scenario the SAM's Third Eye absorbs at least two attacks, you Cover for 15 secs, Flash the mob for 12-13 secs of nearly guaranteed misses, then the WHM does too, and you're looking at over 40 secs of the SAM not taking any damage. And by then the SAM's Third Eye would be ready again, for another 2-3 hits absorbed. In a realistic scenario you won't use all of those, but at the very least one of those tools (aside from Hasso/Third Eye, which should be ready almost all the time) should be available to buy time. Plus, your BLU could also toss out a few Head Butts. And if all else fails, throw out Shield Bash or Sentinel :3

You know, I'd kill to have a static like yours.

[KoukiRyu]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

I usually mean what I say. With purpose. And Semiotic irony.

Even if this PLD lost hate to a BRD Cyclone WS. (HEAD. SHOT.)
Had the PLD voked whenever his recast timer was up,
With the help of THF's TA.
If he even so much as flashed the mob during that entire party.
I find it hard to believe that a BRD will grab hate from a 'good' PLD. Even if you did sub WAR.

I'll bet all the gil you have that a BRD using 2x Mazurka will steal hate from the best PLD's. But I didn't know you meant a BRD that was attacking, that's where I misunderstood, so sorry about that...any PLD that loses hate to that, does deserve a head shot. Using both Mazurka though, a crappy BRD will steal hate, regardless of their subs. :x

[Kurb]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

wow well as far as I can remember I was pretty good at managing hate but when another job usually a DD link MNK pulled out raging fists or whatever it's called I lost hate.But I always seemed to get it back.

[Davitron3000]

Re: What do Paladin's do wrong?

I'll bet all the gil you have that a BRD using 2x Mazurka will steal hate from the best PLD's. But I didn't know you meant a BRD that was attacking, that's where I misunderstood, so sorry about that...any PLD that loses hate to that, does deserve a head shot. Using both Mazurka though, a crappy BRD will steal hate, regardless of their subs. :x

*maybe off topic* Does the Mazurka have to land on a lot of people for it to generate a lot of hate? I have seen it in action and I have seen the amount of hate it can get in a short amount of time, but I was just wondering how exactly it works.

If it doesn't land on the party is it really weak?