The wrong kind of Mindset.

[Hantz]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

Well, having just become a COR, I think I know what's going on.

After receiving my first Phantom Roll, I understood our true role in a party:

To distract our PT members when we have a brain-fart and use less than optimal rolls, by bringing up PLD vs NIN and using inflated job levels to exaggerate our firsthand experience.

It was a magical day.

[DakAttack]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

1-37: Having fun trying to pull hate off of Paladins on purpose
37-72: Having fun trying to pull hate off of Ninjas on purpose

:|

I'm not bashing one or the other, I'm just pointing out that as a damage dealer pulling hate off of Paladins was easy before 37, and almost impossible afterwards. Level 37+ Ninjas, even though they have that second Utsusemi, are the ones that I can pull hate off of.

But 65+ pulling hate usually means swift death. ; ;

[Aeni]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

1-37: Having fun trying to pull hate off of Paladins on purpose
37-72: Having fun trying to pull hate off of Ninjas on purpose

:|

I'm not bashing one or the other, I'm just pointing out that as a damage dealer pulling hate off of Paladins was easy before 37, and almost impossible afterwards. Level 37+ Ninjas, even though they have that second Utsusemi, are the ones that I can pull hate off of.

But 65+ pulling hate usually means swift death. ; ;

It's something I know first hand as a DRK. Believe me, every single NIN I partied with on my DRK couldn't keep hate off of me. Even if it wasn't me, I skewed the hate so someone else got it bad (Because I push the NIN lower on the hate list than the BLM, for example)

That's w/o using job abilities like Souleater. Do you realize how much I f*cking sacrificed for NINs in the PTs I was in? I couldn't use Souleater. Isn't that pathetic?

Of course, with SATA, I could use it, if and only if I used it on SATA and not anytime else. Last Resort was iffy. Some NINs held hate better than others, so LR would cause a different reaction.

With Paladins, however, I could use Souleater and leave it on for the full 60 seconds without guilt or irreparable harm about 80% of the time...

[Vair]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

Let's try to un-derail the discussion by focusing on the issue of the first post, which is the conflict between people who want PLD tanks at end-game, but prefer to party with NIN tanks for XP.

Right now, PLD and BLM (and to a lesser extent, WHM) suffer from this problem. The thing is, those end-game players who really want the level 75 job X's are generally only going to go out of their way to help people they know in those jobs.

I'm more than happy to lend a hand to my LS mates, be it with AF or partying or whatnot, since I know I'll see some return on my investment later when those players reach level 75 and can bring that new flexibility to bear on our end-game activities. But for a complete stranger? I don't think so.

Does this make me a bad person? I certainly don't think so. PLDs really aren't as efficient MP-wise as a Ninja past level 37. BLMs really don't fit well into a TP-burn party (neither do WHMs, really, though they're "better"). That's the way things are right now. Inviting a job that isn't optimal is a deliberate sacrifice, because you know that your party efficiency is "probably" going to take a hit.

If you want to use the argument that these jobs are useful at end-game, you also have to supply the reasoning behind why other peolpe should care; if they don't do end-game, then they have no reason to care. If they're not planning to do end-game with these people, then they have a reason NOT to help them since that's just more competition in cases where there are limited opportunities (though this is a very mild negative - however, it's not offset by any positives). So what's left? Charity? Pity? Guilt? I don't like any of those reasons.


Icemage

Yes, this is basically what I'm trying to put through. I did not want to start a whole PLD v. NIN thread, we already have enough of those. What I'm talking about is getting certain jobs to end-game like PLD when people don't want them in their EXP parties.

[Ziero]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

Well in that case it's simple.

People are making a pt, they need a tank, only Plds are looking. Guess who just got a pt? Or as stated by many people already, *good* nins may be more efficiant, but the average pld makes pts *feel* safer. So pts with strong DDs will invite Plds over Nins because they feel it helps them more.

For example, you're making a pt, you need a tank and only three possible tanks are looking. A nin who you know sucks, a pld you pted with before and was good but not the best, and a Pld who you never pld with but has a detailed search comment telling you everything you want to know and a high rank. All three are in the same zone and all three are the same lvl and the same Tnl. Who would you invite?

Me, I'd go for the Pld I know. Since I know him and what he can do it makes me more comfortable in the pt.

Endgame Meripos, things are different. But 10-70 is a long way to lvl if you *must* have only the 'best'.

[Rai]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

I leveled PLD PRE-RNG-NERF, also around lvl 55-65 I leveled often with a freaking crazy RNG. Yes he could and did pull hate off me at times, but unless he got one shot'd because he was to busy spamming bullets at the mob to recast his shadows after the pull, I was always able to get the mob back on me before he got himself killed.

He told me in tell, I was the greatest tank he had ever leveled with, because he hardly ever died when he partied with me. It was fast paced fights, where he and the BLM would go nearly all out.

Now having lvl'd NIN to 60 so far I know there would be no way to save the life of such a RNG. And I have been told I am a damn good NIN too.

But PLD = safety for the party. NIN is fun too but I don't feel the control I have as PLD.

[Lmnop]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

Unfortunately, I believe he has both PLD and NIN leveled to 75. Idiots level fast and learn nothing. You can level PLD to 75 w/out ever using flash and only voking once/fight. Just seek and the invites will come. Part of why I hate FFXI is because there's no karma -- people can level a job to 75 with ease and then assume they know everything about it and everyone will believe them. My advice to any player is to never say "so and so is 75 xxx job and he says to yyy with my zzz." Do the research, observe what you would do with the tools at your disposal, augment with unbiased knowledge from www.FFXIOnline.com.

Like Omni, I don't want to dip into Nin vs Pld. I'll say this: Nins do hold hate well. The biggest difference between a NIN's hate levels and a PLD's seem to be the last half of the fight. This is where I can slap on my +17 enmity and Provoke and usually get hate off of a NIN (sometimes it's still not enough with some better NINs) and I have no chance of getting it off of a PLD. For a War, I try to keep my hate levels relatively low, when I can. Usually I try to use JAs right before engaging, for instance, just to remove unneeded hate spikes from the hate list.

So what's left? Charity? Pity? Guilt? I don't like any of those reasons.

I agree 100%. I just got in an argument the other day... well first, I should preface this by saying that I hate the SMN job in its current state. If you have a good argument as to why it's not broken, good for you, that's not the point of the impending anecdote. Anywho, I state my reasons as to why the job is horrendously inefficient in party settings and arguably overpowered end-game and the idiot in my party (I was doing a pick-up ENM) with his gung-ho 75 jobs wants to tell me that SMN is just fine because it's so damn good end-game. I say so F***ing what, it needs fixed because the first 70 levels simply mean nothing.

Point is, you cannot argue a job's value because of a few specific applications, such as a SMN's use in promies or on Wyrms. The same holds true for PLD, but even more in a sense, because there are so many more instances of Nin-only mobs than there are Pld-only. Though still, my point of view is that there's nothing wrong with either job but the perspective of the other players.

PS: I'm obviously very excited about October update, SMN will finally be able to contribute in the time between keeping Fenrir's buff on the party and won't have to completely turn their backs on their AWESOME buffs once they hit level 70 because of sudden BNS attacks (Big Numbers Syndrome).

PPS: my LS recently killed Charybdis with a PLD tank and about 10 people backing him up, many of them in the 60-65 region. It's not a trio, but not too shabby.

[Celeal]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

Why can't people just enjoy the game?

/sigh ....

[Mog]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

Why can't people just enjoy the game?

/sigh ....

This is nothing compared to the drama of endgame, I hear.

[Icemage]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

PS: I'm obviously very excited about October update, SMN will finally be able to contribute in the time between keeping Fenrir's buff on the party and won't have to completely turn their backs on their AWESOME buffs once they hit level 70 because of sudden BNS attacks (Big Numbers Syndrome).

I left SMN specifically off of my list of jobs due to the impending changes (which I feel will significantly improve SMN at every level). I totally agree that, as things stand right this moment SMN are hosed just as much as PLD and BLM are (and have been forever).

PPS: my LS recently killed Charybdis with a PLD tank and about 10 people backing him up, many of them in the 60-65 region. It's not a trio, but not too shabby.

That's actually a good achievement. I've killed Charybdis... well... more times than I care to remember now. PLD tank works fine, but you need pretty good gear to tank it, due to his penchant to Quadruple Attack as well as the most devastating Cross Reaper attack. A WHM or /WHM who's quick on the Erase will also save you a lot of grief.


Icemage

[DrivenTooFar]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

To the OP, I would say that statics are your friend. I realize that this is not always an option but maybe you should strive for it. As a Paladin I have been staticing with my White Mage wife pretty much my entire career. Around 60 a Monk from my Linkshell started partying with us and so did some Warroir that we met. Because of the way me and my wife played they won't party with anyone but us. With four of us in place we usually pick up a refresher (RDM or BRD, both great in their own ways) and another DD (BLM preferred). The Rdm might actually stick with us in the static too.

So what is my point to all of this? I never hear anything about Pld vs. Nin. I work with people that are happy with the way that I tank and I never have to deal with the BS. Now from what I hear this isn't probably as efficient as having a Nin tank but no one I party with ever seems to care. I personally cannot comment because I have never partied with a high level Ninja. The main thing is that I always get to party with respectful people.

[Asir]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

When I was leveling BLM, I hated having to hold back with a NIN tank. The majority of the time, I could only do a couple Elemental Enfeebles, two nukes and an MB (if I was lucky to get a party that used SC). Casting any more then that would result in me getting very hurt... Or dead. With a PLD, I was usually able to relax and actually do my job of killing mobs quickly. Then again, I was also one of the few BLMs that would stick close to my PLDs in case I did accidently pull hate so I could be Covered quick and easy.

Since becoming a PLD, I have been quite happy knowing that if the crap hits the fan, I can save my party easily. Even when dual tanking with a NIN, I know that if anyone is going to die, it will be me first since it takes very little time for me to cement hate to myself. Is it odd to be proud of that fact?

[Raydeus]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

Why can't people just enjoy the game?

/sigh ....

Because to some people this isn't just a game, so for them it isn't about how much fun they are getting out of the time they spend playing.

It seems for them it's about how the game makes them feel about themselves (to compensate RL stuff maybe?). So, if they feel someone else is better than them they will do what they can to bring people back to "their level" and then try to do what the nerfed guys did in the first place. Or at least that's the kind of attitude I've seen in a lot of players.

And some actually believe they are investing time in their character and that gear and bragging rights are more important than fun. So the game becomes much more than a game, a game's purpose is to provide entertainment but many players simply forget about that.

Not much you can do about it really. /comfort



PS > This has nothing to do with the RL > XI stuff, the thing is people seem to be unable to differentiate between "taking the game seriously" and "being serious about the game".

Taking the game seriously is what I'm talking about in this post.

Being serious about the game is referring to that even though it is a game that's no excuse to do whatever you want like dropping out of a party without giving a fair warning or be a bad player in general. The game is about fun, but that doesn't mean do whatever you like whenever you like (although for some people that's the definition of fun eh? ).

So, considering the game only for it's fun value doesn't mean you are gonna be a crappy player, some players actually find doing their job well to be really fun. Heck I even have fun soloing skill even though it takes an hour to solo 1-2 skill lvls.

[Lmnop]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

Because to some people this isn't just a game, so for them it isn't about how much fun they are getting out of the time they spend playing.
It seems for them it's about how the game makes them feel about themselves (to compensate RL stuff maybe?). So, if they feel someone else is better than them they will do what they can to bring people back to "their level" and then try to do what the nerfed guys did in the first place. Or at least that's the kind of attitude I've seen in a lot of players.
And some actually believe they are investing time in their character and that gear and bragging rights are more important than fun. So the game becomes much more than a game, a game's purpose is to provide entertainment but many players simply forget about that.
Not much you can do about it really. /comfort

I realize you are well-intentioned, but I see this as basically a prejudice flame. The fact that I seek balance in this game has nothing to do with whether or not I view this game as real.

People always tell me to level and my friends don't understand why I hate to exp so much. Your facts are backwards. The general populace racing to 75 aren't "enjoying the game" in my book, they're doing their damndest to "beat" the game. I enjoy party mechanics, is that so bad? When you have 6 GOOD players working together, it's a well-tuned instrument of exping warfare. And I love that. I drop all parties that aren't that. And guess what? SURPRISE! 33 months of this game and the only reason I'm even level 66 is because I give in and stay with crap-tastic parties every once in a while. This is why I say the game has no Karma -- you do best by choosing a job to "sacrifice." AKA, level one job to 75 fast, get into end-game before it gets flooded, get gear, get money, level all other jobs with everything you'd ever want with them.

NOW, having said that, let's remember this:

Though still, my point of view is that there's nothing wrong with either job but the perspective of the other players.

And I hate PLD vs NIN debates. Yes, I know mages will tell us how much safer they feel with a Pld, yes others will tell us how much better the exp is with a nin... whatever. If it's unbalanced, fix it. S-E's JOB is to try to keep this game balanced. That's why we pay them so much.

[Raydeus]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

I realize you are well-intentioned, but I see this as basically a prejudice flame. The fact that I seek balance in this game has nothing to do with whether or not I view this game as real.

Well I wasn't talking about you when I wrote that, I'm talking about the players in general and their attitude, there's always something that needs to be "balanced" in this game, if it wasn't burn parties it would be RDM solo skills, or SMN 2 HR or WAR Rampage damage or WHM Hexa, or any other thing you can think of.

My point is that people waste way too much time looking at what others have that they don't rather than simply enjoying the time they spend playing.

It's really that simple.

I'm sorry you thought my post was referring to you or something, it wasn't.