The wrong kind of Mindset.

[Vair]

Now, before you read this I want it to be known that I really don't want to have any NIN > PLD / PLD > NIN Arguments. I just want to explain what I really think on the whole matter. In my eyes, discussion is fine, but I don't want to be childish about the whole thing.

THESE ARE JUST MY OPINIONS, NOT THE TRUTH.

First let me tell you how the party was going.

We didn't have a RDM and I was just fine with that, I don't mind having to stop and rest every couple of fight. But we did have a COR. Now, this COR basically refused to use the Refresh Roll on me and even the mages. Somehow it led to the classic "Who's better, PLD or NIN?" Well, I think it's kind of funny what this guy said.



As you can see he believes that PLD is only good for end-game tanking. Here's the problem: How can PLDs tank end-game when we have people like him running around that think that NINs are far superior to PLDs in EXP parties. What I mean to say is: How can we level if they don't want use leveling?

Now, he claims he was a level 75 PLD and a level 75 NIN and I have no reason not to believe him, but in that case how did he get PLD to 75 with his kind of mindset? IT doesn't make any sense that someone who believes that PLD basically has no place in EXP would go to great lengths to level it all the way.

Real topic of the thread:

Now when it comes down to it this is what I really have to say: How are PLDs supposed to tank end-game for these kind of guys when they'd much prefer a NIN in their party? "Sure, We'd love PLDs to tank for us end-game, but before that stay the fuck out of my EXP parties becuase you're uselss." is the basic gist I'm getting.

Later on in the fight after the COR still refuses to refresh the mages and me I just come out and say somthing Snotty and this is how it ends up:




Well, that's how things go. I just really want to say: Can we all just shut the hell up and play the game? Jeez. . .

[Mog]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

lawl

He's not 75 pld and nin. If he was, he bought the account. Just ignore little kids and move on.

[Raydeus]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

NIN > COR

[Omni]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

i think he was saying that nin are just more efficient than pld in xp pts. which is the truth. you cant deny that.

also, your view on nin tanking is from a bitter pld point of view. a good nin can keep hate until renkei, which is pretty much all that is needed. no tank will be able to keep hate with a war and blm going wild. dont blame the tank for that, blame the war and blm.

again, i dont think he was saying that pld dont belong in xp pts, he was just being an unnecessary ass by pointing out that nin is more efficient.

pld is great end game. i wouldnt take a nin main tank to dynamis or many of the nms. pld are just reliable but at a price of having someone watch over them and keep them healthy.

nin are great for slow attacking mobs. they are pretty much self reliant with the need for occasional spot heals.

both jobs are good, just different. players these days only care about xp/hr so that's the mindset you should be angry about, not the eternal pld vs nin feud.

pls dont turn this into another pld vs nin thread ^^

[Illuen]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

Personally, as a WHM, I prefer PLD to NIN any day of the week. Sure, it does mean more healing for me, but I feel much safer with a PLD, simply because I don't have to worry about Hate bouncing quite as much, and I find it much harder if, for instance, the party gets hit with a bad AoE to pull hate off of a PLD by healing people up than it is from a NIN.

[Ziero]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

Well last night I was lvling my war, when the pt started we had a good Pld tank. Other then AoE and one or two 'super' crabs, aka mobs that didn't get dispelled, the Pld never lost hate. We were able to get C2 easy, even though kills were slow, and didn't really have much down time. Only once did I actually have to use voke(I was a war) and that was only because we only had 4 people at the time, one left the pt and another went afk unnannounced. Though to be fair it was downtime and an accidental aggro so it's not his fault.

Then the Pld leaves and we get a Nin. A crappy nin mind you, but a nin none the less. I spend much of the rest of the night getting beat on while the nin spams a maro filled with JP writing, and Stun and Voke requests in auto translate. We have to rest after every fight, and when we get one link, we wipe and disband.

Now what does this tell us? Absolutely nothing of value. Comparing a good Pld to a Crappy nin won't solve anything. A single anecdotal story isn't the end all be all of this debate. The only thing that we can get out of this story is the simple and plain fact that player skill makes all the difference and that 90% of exping will not be at optimal conditions.

[Ziero]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

no tank will be able to keep hate with a war and blm going wild. dont blame the tank for that, blame the war and blm.

I am a 56 War with the second best, if not the best, gear I can possibly obtain. That's acc rings, SFG, +1 peti, AF boots, V sallet ect. Pld never lost hate to me and I was using all my buffs with Brd and Cor buffs to boot.

Good Plds hold hate.

Edit: Sooo, when we gettin that nifty automerge thingie back? >_>

[Omni]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

sorry, 56 isnt the pinnacle of war excellence, but that really isnt the point. ive pulled hate off plds as rng. its not that hard. what i meant by that statement was, if someone is over doing it. over nuking, using /jas, etc. they're going to pull hate. mnks pull hate from pld all the time. my monk is only 43 and i will pull hate from any tank. of course im using berserk, meat foods, and all the best gear at lv. 43 and letting go raging fist whenever i have tp. however, repeatedly doing such things isnt ever good. it just causes mages to waste mp that could be spent curing the pld.

on the flip side, when i was grinding on nin, i was able to hold hate perfectly fine until renkei. i rarely had those cases where the mob is running around. i have to put work into holding hate but its not as flimsy as most ppl make it out to be.

i think people just like using bad examples as their own examples to prove a point. like you said ziero, 1 bad experience doesnt mean squat.

[eticket109]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

The irony of all of the NIN/PLD debates is that SE never really intended NIN to be a tanking job in the first place. It just so happens that NIN makes a damn good tank. Personally I have no preference to either one really so long as they have skill. I hardly notice one being better or worse compared to the overall player just downright sucking.

Either way, whether the COR agreed with a PLD tank or not shouldn't matter. Keeping the PLDs mp up has a positive effect for everyone. The 'x job sucks' argument as an excuse not to do your job doesn't fly.

[Vair]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

i think people just like using bad examples as their own examples to prove a point. like you said ziero, 1 bad experience doesnt mean squat.

I'm being perfectly honest when I said the things I said. I don't use words as manipulation tools. Also, I said from "What I've seen." So no, I don't claim to know everything about everything. XD

[Mog]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

pls dont turn this into another pld vs nin thread ^^

Too late.

[Ziero]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

sorry, 56 isnt the pinnacle of war excellence, but that really isnt the point. ive pulled hate off plds as rng. its not that hard. what i meant by that statement was, if someone is over doing it. over nuking, using /jas, etc. they're going to pull hate. mnks pull hate from pld all the time. my monk is only 43 and i will pull hate from any tank. of course im using berserk, meat foods, and all the best gear at lv. 43 and letting go raging fist whenever i have tp. however, repeatedly doing such things isnt ever good. it just causes mages to waste mp that could be spent curing the pld.
on the flip side, when i was grinding on nin, i was able to hold hate perfectly fine until renkei. i rarely had those cases where the mob is running around. i have to put work into holding hate but its not as flimsy as most ppl make it out to be.
i think people just like using bad examples as their own examples to prove a point. like you said ziero, 1 bad experience doesnt mean squat.

Wait, I'm confused. 56 isn't a good lvl to use as an example but 43 is O.o. The situation is the same, it's just the people and the numbers that are different. I've had pts on my mnk where I could pull hate from Plds and I've had plds who could keep hate. I've had pts on my nin where a DD could pull hate and others where the same DD couldn't. My main point was the only thing really determining how good a job can be is the person playing it. And I've seen some very good Plds hold hate perfectly fine against some very decently equiped DDs going all out. But then again I've seen nins do the same thing.

I'm not into that whole nin vs pld thing, I'm all about the good player vs the bad player thing. And imo a good player on a 'weaker' job is much better then a bad player on a 'stronger' job.

[Icemage]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

Let's try to un-derail the discussion by focusing on the issue of the first post, which is the conflict between people who want PLD tanks at end-game, but prefer to party with NIN tanks for XP.

Right now, PLD and BLM (and to a lesser extent, WHM) suffer from this problem. The thing is, those end-game players who really want the level 75 job X's are generally only going to go out of their way to help people they know in those jobs.

I'm more than happy to lend a hand to my LS mates, be it with AF or partying or whatnot, since I know I'll see some return on my investment later when those players reach level 75 and can bring that new flexibility to bear on our end-game activities. But for a complete stranger? I don't think so.

Does this make me a bad person? I certainly don't think so. PLDs really aren't as efficient MP-wise as a Ninja past level 37. BLMs really don't fit well into a TP-burn party (neither do WHMs, really, though they're "better"). That's the way things are right now. Inviting a job that isn't optimal is a deliberate sacrifice, because you know that your party efficiency is "probably" going to take a hit.

If you want to use the argument that these jobs are useful at end-game, you also have to supply the reasoning behind why other peolpe should care; if they don't do end-game, then they have no reason to care. If they're not planning to do end-game with these people, then they have a reason NOT to help them since that's just more competition in cases where there are limited opportunities (though this is a very mild negative - however, it's not offset by any positives). So what's left? Charity? Pity? Guilt? I don't like any of those reasons.


Icemage

[Jei]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

Some of my PT has that conversation as well. It irritates me a lot, but well, I don't want to jump in and discusss with other ppl when that happens. Waste my energy and ruin my day if I do : /

[Omni]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

Wait, I'm confused. 56 isn't a good lvl to use as an example but 43 is O.o. The situation is the same, it's just the people and the numbers that are different. I've had pts on my mnk where I could pull hate from Plds and I've had plds who could keep hate. I've had pts on my nin where a DD could pull hate and others where the same DD couldn't. My main point was the only thing really determining how good a job can be is the person playing it. And I've seen some very good Plds hold hate perfectly fine against some very decently equiped DDs going all out. But then again I've seen nins do the same thing.
I'm not into that whole nin vs pld thing, I'm all about the good player vs the bad player thing. And imo a good player on a 'weaker' job is much better then a bad player on a 'stronger' job.

we seem to be talking about 2 different things. to avoid further confusion.

if someone wants to take hate, they will. thats all ive said.
and i wasnt talking about you w/ regards to pld vs nin.



efficiency is the question at hand here. with regards to that concern, nin has the advantage. minus how safe you feel or how you like your tank or w/e.