The wrong kind of Mindset.

[Ziero]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

Well at least this isn't a Pld vs Nin debate anymore...

math makes my head hurt ._.

[Omni]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

I honestly don't care which tank is supposedly "better" and I really don't care if people hate me becuase of my job. I love PLD and I'm just trying to play a game. . . so why fight about somthing so pointless?

i dont think people hate you because of your job. some people are just idiots like those in your OP but that's just idiots being idiots.

pld work fine usually, great at times, slower at times.
nin work fine usually, great at times, more fragile at times.

i actually formed a pt with a pld last night. got around chain 10 usually and 25000 xp in 2.5 hours. i specifically looked for pld because i knew we were going to mire since it was empty. in mire, even if you have amensia, pld still have hate gaining moves with flash and cure since silence is much more easily taken care of than amensia. with a nin as main tank in mire, amensia will cripple instant hate generating moves and make it tough for a nin to main tank.

[eva00r]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

Comparing two jobs in an overall sense based on one small aspect is completely retarded. GTFO.

Then why does square enix pre-announce in TGS 2006 that they will adjust PLD tanking style to be more efficient in long run ? The one that doesn't accept the real situation and complain about the others are retarded. GTFO.

PLD and NIN are completely different. They can be more useful than the other in diffrent situations. Simurgh is a joke with PLD tank however it's pretty stupid to kite an NM during night time with PLD.

[Davitron3000]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

however it's pretty stupid to kite an NM during night time with PLD.

...I couldn't resist to bite on that.

I can kite a NM during night time, day time, early afternoon right after lunch, during tea time, whenever. I can generate hate really fast and hold it pretty well throughout the kiting. How is it stupid to kite with a Paladin during the night? (and yes I realize you are referring to the + movement speed that ninjas have at night, but that doesn't mean it is stupid for a Paladin to do it if needed, nor does it mean they will do it worse)

[Icemage]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

PLD kite way better than NIN with Crimson/Blood Greaves.

Sure, NIN run a bit faster... but only at night. Unless you plan on finishing the fight in the ~16 minutes, a PLD with faster run is going to be much more effective overall.


Icemage

[Armando]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

Man, I love a good debate.

Liquidedust, that was an awesome post, but I think something doesn't hold up in your explanation of the effects of the damage variance for Axes and Great Axes. You're assuming Great Axe has about twice the possible outcomes, but the way the damage formula works, the ammount of possible outcomes would depend on PDIF's range. Like, at capped attack, PDIF varies from 1.6 to 2.4...if we assume PDIF rolls vary up to the hundredths, then there's 80 possible PDIF rolls (1.60, 1.61...2.39, 2.40). Both weapons would have the same number of possible PDIF rolls, though in the case of Axe, any given damage number is about twice as likely to come up, since due to rounding, two really close PDIF rolls can give the same number. Sadly, I haven't been formally educated in statistics or probabilities, but I guess what I'm getting at is: If they both have the same number of possible PDIF rolls, then wouldn't Axe be just as likely as Great Axe to not hit for max damage?

Also, this is kind of unrelated to what we're discussing, but still pertinent to the topic of Axes vs Great Axes...I was reading Allakhazam's SAM forum for info on Hasso and Seigan, and was thrilled at the reports. It seems Hasso coming from /SAM37 gives +5 STR +10 Accuracy and +10% attack speed. I call it attack speed since Haste also affects spells, whereas Hasso/Seigan seem to increase spell recasts by 50%, but basically it's like Haste in that it doesn't lower your TP per hit. It looks like the Acc and Speed bonuses may be static, though it's for sure that the STR bonus varies with your level, with 75 SAMs reporting +10 STR (it seems the formula is Level/7, or close to that.)

As for Seigan + Third Eye, many SAMs were posting avoiding 3-4 hits in a row with a single Third Eye. From the way they made it sound, it looks like anything less than 3 isn't very likely. Also, they confirmed that you now have a form of Counter while under the effect of Third Eye (some people reported countering twice with the same Third Eye effect!) In addition to that, it seems that if you add some +Store TP to what you get from Store TP II, you'd be able to drop the number of hits needed for Great Axe to reach 100 TP from 7 to 6. Looks like /SAM may really give /NIN a run for its money now, and I shudder to think at the possibilities of DRK/SAM.

As for Full Break, yeah, I did make a sweeping generalization. I usually speak in terms of typical EXP parties since scenarios outside of that are situational and vary from person to person. But, to answer your question, Karinya, yes, most buffs are mutually overwritable. Shield Break can and does overwrite Rhino Guard. The main problem is that mobs out TP us grossly, and on top of that use their TP spontaneously. When a beetle Rhino Guards at the start of the fight, you Shield Break, and then it does another Rhino Guard just 15 seconds later it's not cool >.>;

But, Full Break is special. Stat Up buffs are divided into tiers or levels, with higher tiers overwriting lower tiers, and abilities in the same tier overwriting each other mutually. The great majority of all mob stat up buffs are only Level/Tier 1, and so are the first 4 Breaks. However, Full Break is actually Level/Tier 2, which means that not only will it overwrite buffs, it'll actually nullify further attempts of the mob. Only a few very specific moves could actually overwrite Full Break back, and only a very, very small number of moves can actually overpower Full Break. Also, I hadn't thought about Sharp Strike, that's a good one. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

EDIT: Found the Apple Pie's buff priority post I had read a long time ago.

Studio Gobli has the list in Japanese.
http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Part/6371/

Anyway, here's the list in English. Those that aren't listed here are still unknown.

+Evasion
(R1) Beatle: Rhino Guard
(R1) Big Bird: Feather Barrier
(R1) Pugil: Water Shield
(R2) Antica: Sand Veil
(R3) Tonberry: Sigh

+Defence
(R1) Crawler: Cocoon
(R1) Crab: Scissor Guard
(R3) Antica: Sand Shield
(R1) Orc: Arm Block
(R1) Yagudo: Parry
(R1) Qudav: Shell Guard

+Attack
(R1) MNK: Boost
(R2) WAR: Warcry

-Evasion
(R1) Lizard: Infrasonics
(R1) Bat: Ultrasonics
(R1) G.Axe: Shield Break
(R2) G.Axe: Full Break
(R4) Fenrir: Lunar Cry

-Defence
(R1) Crossbow: Acid Bolt
(R1) G.Axe: Armor Break
(R1) Staff: Shell Crusher
(R2) G.Axe: Full Break

-Attack
(R1) G.Axe: Weapon Break
(R2) G.Axe: Full Break

-Accuracy
(R2) G.Axe: Full Break
(R4) Fenrir: Lunar Cry

Note that it's really freaking old, so it doesn't take into account CoP and ToAU mobs and their buffs.

[Radel-King_of_Pirates]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

/sigh I guess I did tmake it into a thread I didn't want it to be. I wasn't trying to compare the two jobs. I think I'll edit the OP to make my point clearer.

Alright, edited. Please keep the thread from going where I did not want it to go. XD

Also, I understand the futility of having a PLD v. NIN debate and will never participate in one. I honestly don't care which tank is supposedly "better" and I really don't care if people hate me becuase of my job. I love PLD and I'm just trying to play a game. . . so why fight about somthing so pointless?

Because it is natural that humans fight saying which one is better, having everyone know that their opinion is superior to others

[Aeni]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

PLD kite way better than NIN with Crimson/Blood Greaves.

Sure, NIN run a bit faster... but only at night. Unless you plan on finishing the fight in the ~16 minutes, a PLD with faster run is going to be much more effective overall.


Icemage

It depends on what NMs we're talking about. On retardly fast "Ose jacked with Flee Tool" NMs, it doesn't matter as there's no such thing as a "speed advantage."

Then there's NMs with stunning abilities. In this case, regardless, a NIN is known to be superior for kiting due to the fact that they can avoid/mitigate/nullify such attacks (usually, again depending on what kind of NM and ability used here)

On fast hitting and rapid mobility NMs, PLDs do really well since what you're looking for is not just someone who can "run" but more of someone who can outlive these attacks when the shadows are out and who can still maintain hate. NINs fail at these kinds of NMs/situations.

[Desu~]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

Then why does square enix pre-announce in TGS 2006 that they will adjust PLD tanking style to be more efficient in long run ? The one that doesn't accept the real situation and complain about the others are retarded. GTFO.

You weren't referring to "the long run", you were referring to one aspect of the game. NO U.

As for the rest of the thread, the only thing you can do about an angry player who wants to have "the best" is tell him to go find a party where he can be lazy. You have to work for things, ingame and out. There's no reason to let that kind of attitude slide.