The wrong kind of Mindset.

[Lmnop]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

I don't think you were attacking me personally, more like I think I meet your description of how I feel about the game but not why I feel that way. Like you said all cats are red. And I say I'm a blue cat.

I will always find unbalance as long as it exists. I guess it's just how some of us are doomed to be. At any rate, I really want to put emphasis on this part:

I realize you are well-intentioned...

Don't worry, I hold nothing against you. Just try not to hold anything against people like me. =)

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT back on topic (maybe? what's the topic?)... Any time you're in a situation where someone says a job is good because of how they perform in any one situation, they're being anecdotal and that doesn't support the thesis that the job is overall balanced. If they're right then the job needs fixed. More likely, as is the case with Mr can't-refresh-a-party Corsair, they're idiots who don't understand potential.

[Cometgreen]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

So, basically, you had a crappy COR who wouldn't do his job because he doesn't like PLD tanks in xp. I would have expected the leader to kick him/her.

Oh, and PLD > NIN. *cough*

[Vyuru]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

Does this make me a bad person? I certainly don't think so. PLDs really aren't as efficient MP-wise as a Ninja past level 37. BLMs really don't fit well into a TP-burn party (neither do WHMs, really, though they're "better"). That's the way things are right now. Inviting a job that isn't optimal is a deliberate sacrifice, because you know that your party efficiency is "probably" going to take a hit.

Well, I would have to disagree. Yeah, I prefer paladin tanks over ninja tanks, I've had some crappy pld tanks, and I've had some crappy ninja tanks. But where is the sacrifice to your party efficiency vs one or the other?

Generaly speaking here:

Ninjas can tank fairly well for the first little bit, but then they lose hate and can only snatch it back at intervals, and they are losing hate to ME, a dragoon who is doing her best to avoid hate at all costs, and I have average gear, I am not decked out in +1 everything, it's good gear, but it's really what I'd expect any DD to have.

Yes, I have had ninjas who were good tanks, but these are normally players who are the kind of player who you would want to take with you on a prom run, or some other similar type of mission, and from my experiance, these players are very far and few between.

Paladin tanks on the other hand, rarely lose hate to anyone, unless it's a really decked out monk, or arrow spamming ranger pre nerf.

What really sums it up best for me, ninjas need a thief in order to tank as well as a paladin, paladins do not and a thief+pld combo means that pld is never going to lose hate.

but back to party mechanics, so a whm has to spend a little more mp to heal a pld, so what? Eat cookies, sub blm, and bring a dark staff. I see FAR too many whm just standing there inbetween pulls letting refresh refill their mp pool.

efficiency is the question at hand here. with regards to that concern, nin has the advantage. minus how safe you feel or how you like your tank or w/e.

Yes, but when the ninja can't hold hate, party members are being hurt, whm is spending more mp to heal everyone, and then the whm starts getting wailed on by the mob, so either I or someone else in the party with provoke has to grab the mob's attention and draw it off the whm while the ninja takes time to recast shadows, and then we have to wait for the ninja to get back hate.

By the end of the fight at least one or more party members have had a close call with death, even with good ninjas this can happen, with bad ninjas it just happens alot more often.

Or:

Paladin tanks, paladin requires more mp to heal, but hate stays in one place and unless the mob does something crazy and unusual, no one else should get hurt unless you are pre level 60 and setting up for SATA.

Ninjas are the "do you feel lucky" tanks, even good ninjas will have their bad times, a paladin will BE there taking the hits, and he even has cover for when he loses hate somehow.

So I guess it's pick which sort of effciency that you like. A ninja is more efficient in terms of damage reduction, a paladin is more efficient in terms of hate control. For me, party efficiency is that no one dies, and the hate stays on the tank, hence why I favor paladin tanks.

I must say that I HIGHLY dislike hearing (X job) slows down the exp, or Y job isn't as effecient as Z job.

It may be true, but that is no reason not to invite them. Pre ranger nerf, no job was as effecient at exp as rangers, so why invite anything else? It saddens me that people have still not learned from that.


As for TP burns and ninjas supposedly "superior" role in them......

All these /nin parties are saying is that with no tank we can get a ton of exp fast, that is NOT saying ninja tanks are better than pld tanks, it's saying that even the ninjas aren't going to bother tanking, so everyone had better sub /nin so that you can have 4-5 DD/tanks in the party at any one time.

[Vyuru]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

Another way to view the who is the best exp tank, ninja or paladin? Could simply be look at Gaxe using Warriors and dual axe using warriors.

Gaxe using warriors do alot of damage, and their break weapon skills are highly beneficial to the party, alot of times raising everyone's damage, and in an indirect way, being a very damaging WS if you take that into account.

Full Break can close distortion, and open/close dark, the other breaks open detonation and open/close fire, not sure if it's liquefaction or not...

Dual axes and dual weild let's you get in an extra hit on a WS, making them slightly extra damaging. Axe WS also tend to be very powerful, and hit fast. Overall I would say that Axes deal more damage than Gaxes, but Gaxe WS help the party while Axe WS help yourself.

Both are good, and I do not think you could argue the superiority of one over the other, you can have a preference, but there is no one right way.

The same with ninja vs paladin, both are good, both are beneficial to the party, I don't think there is anything wrong with one vs another, it's just a different playing style.

[eva00r]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

I'm sorry to tell you the truth that NIN is better than PLD in merit XP party. I have PLD and NIN, both 75. I got PLD to 75 first and after that I got NIN to 75. It was like 20-25% more exp per party when I tank as a NIN because the down time was a lot lesser than PLD.

I gained most of my PLD merits from a NIN.

[Celeal]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

I'm sorry to tell you the truth that NIN is better than PLD in merit XP party. I have PLD and NIN, both 75. I got PLD to 75 first and after that I got NIN to 75. It was like 20-25% more exp per party when I tank as a NIN because the down time was a lot lesser than PLD.

I gained most of my PLD merits from a NIN.

I am assuming those are melee burn parties.

I am wondering... is there a "tank" in those merit parties? Are those level 75 NIN actually "tanking" in those parties?

I am not saying that NIN gain faster exp in merit party vs PLD is wrong. But saying NIN "tank" better than PLD in those melee burn parties can be misleading.

[Susurrus]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

If this means anything, when I went and played WHM in seperate merit PTs in Caedarva (sp?), one with a NIN tank, and another with a PLD.

I was much more MP efficient with the PLD tank. All I had to do was cast Regen III, and he could take care of him self most of the time. Especially against Imps. If the Imp did AOE silence, the NIN only had whatever remaining shadows were up before they'd be getting slammed hard. If it was still a couple shadows, then it wouldn't be a big deal. But, this is not always the case. So every time we fought imps (which was a lot), I had to be on my toes and got little time to rest. PLD, however, could stand to take quite a bit of abuse before silence was needed (especially Regen III w/ 2 Regen merits = 22HP a second back), so I could always get a tic or 2 of mp in before I had to silena him. It worked great.

[Liquidedust]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

Another way to view the who is the best exp tank, ninja or paladin? Could simply be look at Gaxe using Warriors and dual axe using warriors.

Gaxe using warriors do alot of damage, and their break weapon skills are highly beneficial to the party, alot of times raising everyone's damage, and in an indirect way, being a very damaging WS if you take that into account.

(don't flame me too much didn't spellcheck it all)

Weapons
I'll face the Greataxe vs. Axe debate first.

The sad fact with Greataxe vs. Axes are the damage over time when you compare the two weapon types.

Great Axes have massive potential I don't deny that, but you need absolutely insane Attack ratings in order to be able to reach the full potential of the Great Axes compared to an Axe.

On an average exp mob the average GAxe has a delay of 504 and an Axe a delay of 276.

While the GAxe has the potential to his basically three times as hard as an Axe the truth is really the average Great Axe hit would be closer to hitting x1.5 to x1.8 times harder then that of a regular Axe. (this is due to the damage formua being skewered towards one-handed weapons)

This coupled with the delay of a Great Axes compared the Axes actually makes a Warrior that is single wielding an Axe to outdamage their Great Axe Breathren at around a 1.25:1 ratio in melee damage alone.

The WARs that dual-wield Axes at 50+ with dual-wield II will skewer this even further in their favour since they will hit faster for more damage over time while building TP (up to around a 1.4:1 to 1.5:1 ratio from melee damage alone).

Don't get me wrong here though, Great Axe is wonderful and Shield Break is the weapon skill to use from level 10-30. But then again accuracy really isn't much of an issue before level 40, or at any level thereafter if you use sushi, but after that Shield Break start to loose its appeal.

At levels 30->50 WAR/THF for damage dealing and SA+Sturmwind as Fragmentation closer is probably the most efficient thing you can do for a party and Great Axe is quite effective since it will kill a mob so much faster (SA Sturmwind is very capable of doing 400-600 damage to close off Fragmentation and end fights a lot quicker).

After 50, and especially at 55+ with Rampage, Great Axes really starts to fall behind due to the Damage Formula being more and more skewered towards one-handed weapons (and the above 1.5:1 ratio is reached for Axe:Great Axe melee damage).

At 60 Raging Rush comes into play for Great Axes user and the damage compared quite well on high IT mobs as long as they aren't overly evasive (since you have to land all three hits to match Rampage). Still Axes trump Great Axes in damage once again through the damage formula being advantagoues towards one-handers in regular melee damage.

At 65 we do get Full Break that can close Darkness. Sadly Full Break doesn't deal a lot of damage on mobs above T in order to validate it being used as a Skillchain closer (think around 300-500 with SA unless you get a lucky Double Attack). However lets also look at the weaponskills we can open/close Darkness for.

• Swift Blade
• Blade: Ten

Neither of these are weaponskills that will be used in a regular experience points party, and both are rather weak as closers.

There are twentysix (26) weaponskills at level 65/66 that can open Distortion for Full Break as well. However three of these weaponskill you can also open Light for with Mistral Axe, and since they are all capable of very high damage they are preferred as Light Skillchain closers phasing out Great Axe for Axe once again.

All the other weaponskills that can open Distortion for Full break are either phased out already or preferred as closers as well (due to higher damage then Full Break or there are just better options from those weapons for skillchains at this level).


Weaponskills that can close light if Mistral Axe is used as an opener

• Dragon Kick
• Shark Bite
• Spinning Slash

Weaponskills that can open Distortion for Full Break

• Flaming Arrow, Piercing Arrow, Dulling Arrow, Sidewinder, Blast Arrow
• Howling Fist
• Blade: Chi
• Tachi: Enpi, Tachi: Goten
• Hot Shot, Split Shot, Sniper Shot, Slug Shot, Blast Shot
• Vorpal Scythe
• Double Thrust, Thunder Thrust, Raiden Thrust, Vorpal Thrust, Skewer
• Power Slash
• Poison Nails, Crescent Fang

Full Break can also open Fusion for the following weaponskills at level 65/66.

• Arching Arrow
• Mistral Axe
• Heavy Shot
• Wheeling Thrust

Sadly neither of these are a particular strong closer and these skillchain options will most likely be overlooked.

This makes our nice and shiny new Great Axe WS really just a big glorified debuff move, which sadly all earth-based monster have a high resistance towards (see below). The level of 65 is all use we will basically see for Full Break, mainly since we don't learn Mistral Axe until level 66.

Then at 71 Full Break is promtly replaced by Steel Cyclone which happens to occupy the exact same SC slot as Full Break and also does a lot more damage then Full Break (or any other Great Axe weaponskill up until now).

At levels 70/74+ the burn style parties basically become dominant and while targetting T/VT mobs Great Axe just cannot keep up to an Axe. Actually to clarify, an Axe cannot keep up unless you go all out offensive with either /DRG or /DRK with Great Axe (however this will most likely make you be face down once per hour no matter you want it or not).

While you can use /NIN with Great Axe the subjob is sadly not tailored to take full effect of Great Axe, while Axes benefit from it a lot more (delay reduction for more damage over time). And in addition with shadows for a great defense you will sadly not see Great Axe used a lot.


Break Weaponskills
Sadly breaks WS's are overwritten by eva up (shield break), def up (armor break) or atk up (weapon break) so if a mob does any of these moves the effects of your break WS are automatically null.

And sadly the mobs the break WS's are most beneficial against have exactly these moves or are resistant to that particular break WS's effects (since all breaks are tied to a certain element).

So while the break WS's are very beneficial to a party the effects are usually very short due to monster effectivly overwriting/replacing the debuffs with their own buffs.

Information on Break WS's compiled from:
http://www.killingifrit.com/forums.p...052298#2052298
http://www.killingifrit.com/forums.p...582061#1582061

Buffs which overwrite/replace Shield Break

• Beetle: Rhino Guard
• Greater Bird: Feather Barrier
• Pugil: Water Shield
• Antica: Sand Veil
• Tonberry: Sigh

Buffs which overwrite/replace Armor Break

• Crawler: Cocoon
• Crab: Scissor Guard
• Antica: Sand Shield
• Orc: Arm Block
• Yagudo: Parry
• Qudav: Shell Guard

Buffs which overwrite/replace Weapon break

• MNK: Boost
• WAR/Yagudo/Orc: Warcry
• Scorpion: Sharp Strike (unconfirmed)
• Dhalmel: Berserk (unconfirmed)
• Bomb: Berserk (unconfirmed)

Buffs which overwrite/replace Full Break

• Tonberry: Sigh
• Antica: Sand Shield

So if you don't fight a mob that can overwrite your break WS you should use it but mostly when the break WS is most beneficial (Armor Break vs. Crabs for example) it will also stay on for a very short duration since they can easily overwrite and cancel out your debuff.

In addition each Break WS has an associated element and will last for a duration based on resist of the monster and at what TP you use your break WS.

Base duration of a break weaponskill is 3 minutes at 100%, 4 minutes at 200% and 5 minutes at 300%

• Shield Break (Ice Element)
• Armor Break (Wind Element)
• Weapon Break (Water Element)
• Full Break (Earth Element)

There are 3 scenarios when a Break WS is performed - Full effect, Half resist, Total Resist.

1. Total Resist - usually when the enemy is strong against the element of the Break WS itself.
   For example: Using Shield Break vs Skeleton enemies (they have high resist vs Ice).
   That means there will be no evade down for the enemy.
2. Half Resist - usually when the enemy has no weakness/strength against the Break WS.
   This means the time interval of which the Break is valid is halved.
   For example, Shield Break, if not half resisted, has around a 3 minute window of which evade down is in effect, but if half resist, it only is in effect for 1 minute and a half.
3. Full effect - usually when the enemy has an weakness to the Break WS.
   For example, Shield Break vs Crawlers. It has full effect in that 3 minutes

I could list every mobs weakness and strength in the game but I will compile some of the most common exp mob families in the game to show what breaks they are strong/weak against.

Beasts

• Coeurls including Torama Weak towards Full Break.
• Dhalmels Strong resistance versus Full Break.

Vermin

• Beetles Weak towards Shield Break (but can overwrite the effect from them),
  Strong resistance versus Full Break.
• Crawlers Weak towards Shield Break,
  Strong resistance versus Full Break.
• Flies Weak towards Shield Break,
  Strong resistance versus Armor Break
• Spiders Weak towards Shield Break,
  Strong resistance versus Full Break.

Plants

• Mandragora Weak towards Shield Break,
  Strong resistance versus Full Break.

Aquans

• Crabs Weak towards Shield Break,
  Strong resistance versus Weapon Break.
• Pugils & Jagils Weak towards Shield Break (but can overwrite the effect from them),
  Strong resistance versus Weapon Break.

Birds

• Colibri Weak towards Shield Break,
  Strong Resistance to all the other Break weaponskills.
• Bats, Triple Weak towards Shield Break.
  Strong resistance versus Armor Break.
• Bats, Single Strong resistance versus Armor Break.
• Greater Birds Weak towards Shield Break (but can overwrite the effect from them).

Undead

• Skeletons Basically Immune towards Shield Break.

Dragons

• Puks Weak towards Shield Break,
  Strong Resistance versus Armor Break

Beastmen

• Gigas Strong resistance versus Shield Break.
• Sahagin Strong resistance versus Weapon Break.
• Yagudo Weak against Shield Break,
  Strong Resistance versus Armor Break.

Full Break can close distortion, and open/close dark, the other breaks open detonation and open/close fire, not sure if it's liquefaction or not...

Dual axes and dual weild let's you get in an extra hit on a WS, making them slightly extra damaging. Axe WS also tend to be very powerful, and hit fast. Overall I would say that Axes deal more damage than Gaxes, but Gaxe WS help the party while Axe WS help yourself.

Both are good, and I do not think you could argue the superiority of one over the other, you can have a preference, but there is no one right way.

The same with ninja vs paladin, both are good, both are beneficial to the party, I don't think there is anything wrong with one vs another, it's just a different playing style.

As stated above Axe will perform very much stronger then Great Axe, and a lot of break weaponskills can be overwritten by experience mobs we have chosen to exp on (and for a reason, since these mobs are a lot simpler then other options for the same experience points).

The only Break weaponskill you will use on a regular basis is Shield Break, since basically everything is weak towards it.

However accuracy is usually not an issue in an experience points party since the mobs we usually chose to exp on are comparably non-evasive to other mobs at the same level (with the slight exception of Toramas in which I can see an application for Shield Break).

From level 30->50 the most damaging combo is Greataxe and SA Sturmwind for WAR but that is at the expense of dropping your Break weaponskills. And at 48~50 most WARs will switch to /NIN an dual-wield Viking Axes (+20 acc is just impossible to say no against for a WAR).

From 50 onwards Greataxe can at some level match Axe damage melee+WS if you fight IT mobs only, but the moment you face VT or below Axes will just blow Great Axes away with almost 50% per fight (a WARs damage is basically 60-70% regular melee hits and 30-40% Weaponskills).

Dont' get me wrong, I love Greataxes as WAR but if I have an option to benefit the party greater thru actual faster kills with /NIN and Axes I will choose that option.

Then again I am very interested in /SAM and Greataxe mainly since I have Axe capped up to level 72 already thanks to BST (WAR65 right now).

Oh and for a sense of completeness, Break WS's with the exception of Full break close Fusion and Impactation and the following weaponskills can open Fusion for them.

• Flaming Arrow, Dulling Arrow
• Spinning Axe
• Spinning Attack
• Tachi: Kagero
• Hot Shot, Sniper Shot
• Full Swing
• Burning Blade, Red Lotus Blade
• Punch

The following weaponskill can open Impactation for the break weaponskills to close.

• Blast Arrow
• Smash Axe
• Raging Rush
• Skullbreaker
• Blade: To
• Tachi: Goten, Tachi: Yukikaze
• Blast Shot
• Shadow of Death, Guilliotine
• Frostbite, Freezebite
• Megalith Throw, Axe Kick

Might have missed some but ah well I think that is all of them.

[Armando]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

Liquidedust, that was a good post, and you mean well, but there's some misinformation I'd like to correct.

The first thing is that there is no discrepancy between the calculations for a Great Axe and an Axe. In fact, there's no difference between the calculations for one-handed weapons and two-handed weapons. The formulas aren't skewed in favor of one or the other. If you have a Great Axe with 80 DMG and an Axe with 40 DMG, the Great Axe will do twice the damage as the Axe. Attack affects them both equally as well (i.e. you don't need Attack to make the most out of Great Axe as most people erroneously believe) so no matter what your PDIF is, the proportions between their damage would remain the same; Great Axe would still be doing twice the damage.

The problem lies elsewhere. Throughout the game, Great Axes in general have better DMG/second ratios than Axes. However, as the game progresses, Axe's DMG/sec ratios keep improving and getting closer to Great Axe's (the beginning of this trend is well marked by Combat Caster's Axes at Lv.40, and their HQ versions.) For the most part, an Axe has about half the DMG of a Great Axe, but has somewhat more than half of the GA's Delay (hence their lower DMG/sec.) However, when you start Dual Wielding, you're seriously skewing the DMG/sec ratio. Suddenly, Axes are just as fast as Great Axes with just Dual Wield I, and with Dual Wield II, they pull ahead. What's more, endgame axes have some really sick added stats (+5 Acc, +18 Attack in only one of two weapon slots?) as opposed to Great Axes, which stay "plain."

The skewing of the DMG/sec ratios and the stacking of the bonuses found in one-handed axes is what skews the damage in their favor, not the damage formulas. Add on top of that the fact that Joyeuse and multi-hit weapons in general are broken, and that there is no worthwhile multi-hit Great Axe, and it's not hard to see why Great Axe lags behind. The damage formulas work perfectly. Want Great Axes to be better? All S-E has to do is up their stats. Up their DMG and/or cut down their Delay until it matches dual wielded DMG/sec ratios, and add some nifty +stats on them. That'd level the playing field. Of course, since a fair part of Axe's potential comes from the sub job, S-E opted for a more balanced approach and made a counterpart sub that makes two-handed weapons stronger and faster, while giving some defensive abilities in order to compete with Utsusemi's usefulness. Of course, I'm talking about the changes to SAM and /SAM.

Note that WAR/THF with a Great Axe could probably keep up, or WAR/DRG for that matter, but they'd still be lacking one crucial element: the ability to nullify damage.

The other point that I wanted to address were Breaks. It isn't so much as misinformation, but rather I'd like to offer a different perspective on it. Basically, I don't believe the overwriting of Breaks to be a problem. We can only efficiently stick one Break at a time on the mob, and 99% of mobs can only overwrite one Break (if at all.) If the mob overwrites, just choose a different Break and adjust elsewhere. Fighting Beetles? Then use Armor Break rather than Shield Break, and use Sushi (assuming you're not really low in level.) Fighting Crawlers? Use Shield Break rather than Armor Break, and eat meat.

Weapon Break is totally useless, by the way. PLDs already have all the defense they could ever need, and are already at the point of diminishing returns. At best, lowering the mob's Attack by 25% would allow the PLD to either eat Sushi or tank with Berserk up, but even that is wasted because the PLD would get more mileage out of Shield or Armor Break, and on top of that, every other DD would benefit as well. Full Break is just .

[Celeal]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

*Warning: Off topic*

With the new SAM update, I will try WAR/SAM using G.Axe tonight when I get home (if I can find or form an exp. party...)

As for Great Axe vs Axe, I have actively use both G.Axe and Axe for my WAR in exp. parties, and have both weapons capped at my level (level 62).

From my experience for using Great Axe and Axe... let me put it this way:

If your WAR/NIN gear setup works very well for DW Axe, do not expect the same set of gear and subjob will perform equally on Great Axe. Great Axe and Axe are different. This is base on my own experience.

As the above poster stated, two-handed need "a lot more" attack+ (to reach the high end of dmg curve) compare to single-handed weapon because of how the damage formula works. However, that only apply to pre-ToAU exp. area. From my experience, the "gap" between Axe and Great Axe when exp. on ToAU mob is not an issue.

I have tried DD as WAR/NIN, WAR/MNK, WAR/THF after I got Raging Rush. To my surprise, WAR/MNK worked the best for me:

Alternate between Aggressor and Focus, focus gear more on Attack+ and STR+, use sushi. Beserk, Warcry, and Boost can cover attack+ when needed. It works very well on Great Axe. It is just different from WAR/NIN, that is all...

With the different between A- Axe skill and A+ Great Axe skill post level 60, plus those weak mobs in ToAU and SAM's update, I have strong faith on Great Axe.


Sorry for the off topic, but I really think players should know the changes after ToAU release.

[Liquidedust]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

Liquidedust, that was a good post, and you mean well, but there's some misinformation I'd like to correct.

The first thing is that there is no discrepancy between the calculations for a Great Axe and an Axe. In fact, there's no difference between the calculations for one-handed weapons and two-handed weapons. The formulas aren't skewed in favor of one or the other. If you have a Great Axe with 80 DMG and an Axe with 40 DMG, the Great Axe will do twice the damage as the Axe. Attack affects them both equally as well (i.e. you don't need Attack to make the most out of Great Axe as most people erroneously believe) so no matter what your PDIF is, the proportions between their damage would remain the same; Great Axe would still be doing twice the damage.

The problem lies elsewhere. Throughout the game, Great Axes in general have better DMG/second ratios than Axes. However, as the game progresses, Axe's DMG/sec ratios keep improving and getting closer to Great Axe's (the beginning of this trend is well marked by Combat Caster's Axes at Lv.40, and their HQ versions.) For the most part, an Axe has about half the DMG of a Great Axe, but is somewhat more than twice as slow (hence their lower DMG/sec.) However, when you start Dual Wielding, you're seriously skewing the DMG/sec ratio. Suddenly, Axes are just as fast as Great Axes with just Dual Wield I, and with Dual Wield II, they pull ahead. What's more, endgame axes have some really sick added stats (+5 Acc, +18 Attack in only one of two weapon slots?) as opposed to Great Axes, which stay "plain."

The skewing of the DMG/sec ratios and the stacking of the bonuses found in one-handed axes is what skews the damage in their favor, not the damage formulas. Add on top of that the fact that Joyeuse and multi-hit weapons in general are broken, and that there is no worthwhile multi-hit Great Axe, and it's not hard to see why Great Axe lags behind. The damage formulas work perfectly. Want Great Axes to be better? All S-E has to do is up their stats. Up their DMG and/or cut down their Delay until it matches dual wielded DMG/sec ratios, and add some nifty +stats on them. That'd level the playing field. Of course, since a fair part of Axe's potential comes from the sub job, S-E opted for a more balanced approach and made a counterpart sub that makes two-handed weapons stronger and faster, while giving some defensive abilities in order to compete with Utsusemi's usefulness. Of course, I'm talking about the changes to SAM and /SAM.

Note that WAR/THF with a Great Axe could probably keep up, or WAR/DRG for that matter, but they'd still be lacking one crucial element: the ability to nullify damage.

Thanks for responding and clearing up a few things Armando , I just need to clarify a little what I meant with Attack were in favour of one-handers (since I came out a little wrong as you kindly pointed out).

Also just did a brief spell and grammar check so might be some inconsistency in this. (if something is unclear I'll try and explain it).

What I meant with the pontential of a weapon benefits more for the Axes then Great Axes. While say (hypothetically speaking) a DMG: 46 1-handed weapon can deal a maximum damage of 177 per hit and a 2-handeer with DMG: 92 can deal a maximim damage of 354 per hit (not really actual numbers).

The norm is usually that you hit around 45-60% of the weapons potential on regular VT/IT exp mobs 1-74 with crits going at around 70-90% of the weapons potential (anything over 90% is rare to hit without SA and massive STR and Attack to boost you up on typical VT/IT exp mobs 1-74).

(This is assuming you keep Berserk, Attack Food and/or any other Atk buffs on you such as the Minuet BRD Song, if not applied these numbers will vary a lot more on regular VT/IT exp mobs 1-74)

This brings us the following numbers (rounded down):

• Axe: 79-106 (27 possible outcomes) - Crit: 123-159 (36 possible outcomes)
• Great Axe: 159-212 (53 possible outcomes) - Crit: 247-318 (71 possible outcomes)

Due to the nature of a lower variation in damage of Axes (less possible outcomes) in Axes compared to Great Axes; The Axes will be more consistent in damage on your regular exp mob when compared to Great Axes.

While the law of Averages tell us it will eventually be evened out on both of them math also tells us that the higher the variation in any given situation close to maximum potential will most likely not be able to be achieved.

While it is the same ratio to reach average damage with either weapon the chances of hitting higher in each scale is more likely in Axes due to lesser amounts of possible outcomes in variation.

If lucky and hitting high on the scale the Great Axes wins hands-down in total damage, but Axes thanks to lesser amounts of possible outcomes will benefit more from the formula as written (as with anything will small variation compared to high variation).

This is in combination of Axes benefitting greatly from Dual Wield delay reduction and actually randomizing possible outcomes more often as well being able to trigger Double Attack more often skewer the formula for damage more towards one-handed weapon users (a missed attack matter less to someone that single or dual-wields and you have a greater chance of seeing DA proc in the same amount of time. Note: time not swings).

This since more hits means more chances for additional hits for a WAR (there really is no way around this). I have said that before and promtly claimed more possible chances for Double Attack proc. will make make Double Attack more efficient and will get a better net gain. (which Dual-wield gives when using Axes)

This is again displayed in the weaponsskills used by a Warrior 60+ (the below assumes 10% DA proc rate and only assuming one double attack per WS).

Rampage
Rampage is five hits,six hits with Dual-Wield.

The chances of double attacking at least once in Rampage is 40.95% (46.86% with dual-wield).

This numbers comes up by calculating the following.

[code]1-(x^z) = y

Where
x is your chance of double attack processing
z is your number of swings in a weaponskill
y is the chance of dual-wield processing once[/code]
Each additional hit beyond the first weaponskill has a x1.0 multiplier, the first hit of Rampage is at x0.5 and a full Rampage would be at x4.5.

This gives us 40.95 to 46.86 percent chance to increase our Rampage damage with 22% or rather it makes Rampage 9.0 percent (10.3 percent if you dual-wield) more efficient.

Raging Rush
Raging Rush is 3-hits.

The chances of double attacking at least once in Raging Rush is 27.1 percent.

(using same formula is in the above example).

Each additional hit beyond the first weaponskill has a x1.0 multiplier, the first hit of Raging Rush varies but the following applies.

• 100% TP x1.0 a Full Raging Rush would be x3.0
• 200% TP x1.5 a Full Raging Rush would be x3.5
• 300% TP x2.5 a Full Raging Rush would be x4.5

This gives us a 27.1 percent chance to increase out Raging Rush damage as follows (as well as the increased overall efficiency in paranthesis).

• 100% TP DA has a chance to increase our damage with 33% (8.94% overall)
• 200% TP DA has a chance to increase our damage with 28.57% (7.74% overall)
• 300% TP DA has a chance to increase our damage with 22% (5.96% overall)

On IT mobs Raging Rush versus Rampage will perform better thanks to its higher damage and accuracy issues on Rampage, but on mobs that con lower the extra number of hits of Rampage will outdamage Raging Rush thanks to (or rather due to) the lesser variations in ranges a one-handed weapon can hit at (as well as the higher number of hits).

There are however two general exceptions to this:

• SA Raging Rush Will increase the first hit in Raging Rush with an additional x1.0 multiplier and make it output similar damage as Rampage at 100%. (note: with a Martial Bhuj at higher levels SA Raging Rushes and 6 hits Rampages will behave exactly the same at 100% TP damage-wise)
• 300% Raging Rush Will basically at all times match Rampages damage, and a SA 300% Raging Rush will usually blow Rampage Damage away (possible thanks to the potential of x5.5 with both weaponskills and due to the nature of Raging Rush taking more advantage of STR).

Summary
Damage from Axes compared to Great Axes will be overall higher thanks to the higher number of swings you perfom compared to a Great Axes. Also one of the most job-defining traits of Warrior, Double Attack, will see a greater use on Dual-wielding Axes.

While both weapons benefit equally (or moreso for Great Axe thanks to higher TP returns and damage) you will see them a lot ore often on a WAR/NIN that dual-wields Axes.

In general if you fight IT mobs GAxe compared to Axe Weaponskills doesn't matter, they will output about the same numbers. When you target VT and below your one-handed Axe Rampages will most likely output greater numbers just due to the sheer nature of additional hits and the Great Axes weaponskill need to have additional TP beyond 100% to be as efficient.

Conclusion
Basically total damage from Axes will outperform Great Axes in an experience points enviroment. And damage taken will be greatly reduced with /NIN which Axes have the greater benefit from (thanks to reduced delay).

There are very few Great Axes that boost a Warrior performance in Attack/Accuracy/STR department compared to Axe choices. This just widens the gap between a Axe and Great Axe user even more (almost to a degree where it feels alienating to use a Great Axe).

SAM looks like the new option for Great Axes to finally be able to match up to Axes again, sadly unless the defense of SAM wont come close to NIN (doesn't have to match just come close to) I see it as another nail in the coffin for Great Axes (If we do even more damage we need something that can protect us from taking damage since we will grab hate unintentionally more often).

The other point that I wanted to address were Breaks. It isn't so much as misinformation, but rather I'd like to offer a different perspective on it. Basically, I don't believe the overwriting of Breaks to be a problem. We can only efficiently stick one Break at a time on the mob, and 99% of mobs can only overwrite one Break (if at all.) If the mob overwrites, just choose a different Break and adjust elsewhere. Fighting Beetles? Then use Armor Break rather than Shield Break, and use Sushi (assuming you're not really low in level.) Fighting Crawlers? Use Shield Break rather than Armor Break, and eat meat.

Weapon Break is totally useless, by the way. PLDs already have all the defense they could ever need, and are already at the point of diminishing returns. At best, lowering the mob's Attack by 25% would allow the PLD to either eat Sushi or tank with Berserk up, but even that is wasted because the PLD would get more mileage out of Shield or Armor Break, and on top of that, every other DD would benefit as well. Full Break is just .

And yes I agree with your viewpoint here, I just have a way to always look at the glass half-empty instead of half-full I suppose .

And while Full Break is very very nice, you'll seldom use it in regular exp sadly (at least I find myself to use it very rarely). I love the WS when I duo or trio with friends but I seldom get a decent application in an experience points party (mainly since at my level you still rely heavily on skillchain and they will most likely want me to close Fragmentation with Raging Rush if I use Great Axes).

The application of Full break is wonderful, but I myself seldom see me use it in experience points parties (that and the SC properties Full Break has are less then stellar as I pointed out in my previous post).

[dirtyclown]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

I'm sorry to tell you the truth that NIN is better than PLD in merit XP party. I have PLD and NIN, both 75. I got PLD to 75 first and after that I got NIN to 75. It was like 20-25% more exp per party when I tank as a NIN because the down time was a lot lesser than PLD.

I gained most of my PLD merits from a NIN.

Comparing two jobs in an overall sense based on one small aspect is completely retarded. GTFO.

[Karinya]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

Weapon Break is totally useless, by the way. PLDs already have all the defense they could ever need, and are already at the point of diminishing returns. At best, lowering the mob's Attack by 25% would allow the PLD to either eat Sushi or tank with Berserk up, but even that is wasted because the PLD would get more mileage out of Shield or Armor Break, and on top of that, every other DD would benefit as well. Full Break is just .

I agree that weapon break is largely useless *in an exp party*. However, I think it might have some usefulness when soloing/duoing in DD-oriented gear. There's no law against using a great axe even as /NIN, and it's also possible that 70+ WAR/SAM with Seigan+Third Eye might not need /NIN and shihei to keep damage taken low. The new countering third eye could be incredibly strong with a GA.

That's all even aside from the possibility that break vs. buff overwriting might be *mutual* overwriting like cocoon vs. sonic wave - has anyone tested? Weapon Breaking a Sharp Strike could be quite useful if your party doesn't have a dispeller (with COR, that doesn't necessarily mean a horrible party setup that you should never be in in the first place). Being at diminishing returns def vs. a crab or imp doesn't mean you're at diminishing returns vs. a scorpion with Sharp Strike on. Of course, that assumes that some party actually dares to fight a high attack mob type, which is rare outside of statics, but it could happen.

[Omni]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

Comparing two jobs in an overall sense based on one small aspect is completely retarded. GTFO.

Funny, that's pretty much how this thread started. :p

Yes, but when the ninja can't hold hate, party members are being hurt, whm is spending more mp to heal everyone, and then the whm starts getting wailed on by the mob, so either I or someone else in the party with provoke has to grab the mob's attention and draw it off the whm while the ninja takes time to recast shadows, and then we have to wait for the ninja to get back hate.

you just quoted what i said, and ignored it in your response. nice one. when hate is fine, which in most cases it is, nin will win in efficency. hands down.

i dont see where all these horrible ninjas are coming from. it seems that when anyone has a point about nin holding hate, they make it out to be that every nin never holds hate, or that nin holding hate is some extremely difficult task.

and please do not use a nin at lv. 24 as an example of nin holding hate.

[Vair]

Re: The wrong kind of Mindset.

Funny, that's pretty much how this thread started. :p



you just quoted what i said, and ignored it in your response. nice one. when hate is fine, which in most cases it is, nin will win in efficency. hands down.

i dont see where all these horrible ninjas are coming from. it seems that when anyone has a point about nin holding hate, they make it out to be that every nin never holds hate, or that nin holding hate is some extremely difficult task.

and please do not use a nin at lv. 24 as an example of nin holding hate.

/sigh I guess I did tmake it into a thread I didn't want it to be. I wasn't trying to compare the two jobs. I think I'll edit the OP to make my point clearer.

Alright, edited. Please keep the thread from going where I did not want it to go. XD

Also, I understand the futility of having a PLD v. NIN debate and will never participate in one. I honestly don't care which tank is supposedly "better" and I really don't care if people hate me becuase of my job. I love PLD and I'm just trying to play a game. . . so why fight about somthing so pointless?