Regarding Job Adjustments mentioned at TGS 06

[Armando]

Re: Regarding Job Adjustments mentioned at TGS 06

I have to agree, lowering Flash's recast is not the answer. Flash is mighty strong as it is, and if you look at the big picture, it makes up a fair chunk of our damage reduction. Although, I have to disagree that it wouldn't change a whole lot - Flash's effect lasts 12-13 seconds. As it stands now, you need 3 hasted people casting Flash to set up a permanent Flash rotation. Lower Flash's recast to 30 seconds, and it becomes 25.5 seconds with Haste - then, you'd only need two people (PLD and WHM, or a PLD + RDM/PLD post-74) to perma-blind the mob.

Sorry, but huh? If changing one spell would mean changing the other then DRK would've gotten Auto-Refresh when PLD did.

PLD uses and relies a lot more on its MP than DRK, though, at least before Absorb-TP. Flash and Stun have always been treated as each other's counterparts - same casting time, recast time, MP cost, and level to learn; one mostly blocks melee damage, the other mainly stops casting. If they lowered Flash's recast, they would need to lower Stun's too.

This is just a game, people doesn't win anything besides entertainment, and the psychology behind this shouldn't go beyond having a good time while playing. If you want to "fix" players acording to your concept of whats the right way to do things then you need to step back a bit from the game.

I have to agree with Aeni on this one, too. I'm not even going to touch the "it's just a game" bit, but it's hard to deny that the players' attitudes aren't disappointing. You have to draw some line somewhere. People are lazy and close-minded now; they're afraid to try new things, and want the easy way out of everything. We're not talking about wanting to make players conform to a person's ideals; we're talking about making people actually use their head and become a bit more open-minded.

[Mikalian]

Re: Regarding Job Adjustments mentioned at TGS 06

I would like to see SE finally resolve the one major discrepancy that PLD suffer versus other jobs with natural MP. PLD only spells. I would like to see a line of spells for PLD that would enhance our shield in the same way that RDM En-Spells enhance weapons but only dealing damage when the shield blocks. Start them at level 40 and then give us a new one every five levels all the way to 75 to include Light and Dark elements. Make them long lasting (say about 2 minutes) and medium MP (say about 30ish). Make the damage inflicted by the elemental effect based on a combination of Shield Skill, Enhancing Magic Skill, and damage blocked. Make the elemental damage caused by these shield spells generate hate at a rate similar to damage from melee attacks. This would allow PLD to generate more damage while increasing our ability to hold hate.

[Lmnop]

Re: Regarding Job Adjustments mentioned at TGS 06

Not a bad idea, but I could really only see use for 1-2 of these types of spells. 2 only as a tier 2 version of the first... not one for every element. I really do wish Pld had a few unique spells. However, as the game is now, I don't think it's possible to make the add'l effect garner additional hate. It would only be a tool for more damage. The other issue is how it would stack with other "spike" effects, such as Gallant's Roll or whatever SMN Blood Pact gives a Spikes effect.

Another idea would be a variant on an idea I saw posted around here shortly ago... If I find out who I'm ripping off, I'll edit this post to credit them. Anyway, their idea was a trait for warrior that would slow the mob when they hit with a 2 handed weapon. What if Paladin had a 3-5 minute duration spell that made it so on a successful shield block, you caused additional effect: Unbalance. Basically, something like 25% slow for the next single attack round. Something like this would be useless unless you could get to the point that the mp spent on the spell was lower than the mp used to cure the extra damage that would've been done if not for the slow effect. Ok so my idea sucks. More damage prz.

And of course, no matter what kind of shield-enhancing spell they could come up with, having Shield Bash also deliver the effect would be nice :D so that once/5 minutes, you could bring the effect forcibly to them w/out having to wait for them to punch you. Be it extra damage or extra effect.

------------------

I agree with Aeni. And yes, you have to consider some amount of psychology in an online game. Or at least Sociology... When people refuse to invite a Dragoon, who does perfectly healthy amounts of damage, just because they heard from their friend's "smart friend," it's hard to undo. Even if a change doesn't have a very large impact on a job's effect, you have to hype it up to make people realize just how much it changes the game. And nothing hypes better than a new JA/Trait.

[Raydeus]

Re: Regarding Job Adjustments mentioned at TGS 06

All that "we need to change the players mentality" stuff sounds really good on paper, but I wonder how exactly do you guys plan to pull it off.

If you really expect a job change would magically make all the kiddies out there realize how short sighted they have been and make them thinking rational players, then I think you are gonna be very dissapointed.

They might change their view about a job just because it's the current fad but that doesn't mean they will change their way of thinking.

It's like trying to fix a kid who likes to play right in the middle of a freeway by chaining him to a tree. You might stop him from doing that, but then he might start playing Bungee with the chain and brake a few rips in the process. Then you'd have to replace the chain with something shorter and softer, or maybe bring all that mental institution equipament and just keep him restrained.

In the end all the walls and chains wont solve anything, because the problem itself isnt being dealt with, you are just dealing with the syntoms.


But I think it's gonna be interesting finding out if this changes will indeed have an effect on players' mentality, you never know what could happen.

I wish you guys luck.

[FranckKnight]

Re: Regarding Job Adjustments mentioned at TGS 06

A note about the shield :

Shield skill was more or less another Evasion/Parry move before,so when it activated you completly evaded the attack. Problem is that it rarely activated if at all, and skilling only happens with a percentage when it activates. After 60 levels of PLD I barely had 80 shield skill. In the new system I nearly capped it before 75.

Maybe the shield chance to block was counted last in the sequence of evasion/parry/block.

Now it reduces damage only, depending on shield size, but also activate much more frequently. Also the shield size changes the ratio of blocking, so basically you can start by skilling up to near cap on a smaller shield, and then change to a larger one to increase the damage reduction.

Overall I think the new system is better. It has more chances to activate every hit, which should reduce the overall damage much more than a null-damage block that activates only rarely due to the low chances of it activating at all.

[FranckKnight]

Re: Regarding Job Adjustments mentioned at TGS 06

I would like to see SE finally resolve the one major discrepancy that PLD suffer versus other jobs with natural MP. PLD only spells. I would like to see a line of spells for PLD that would enhance our shield in the same way that RDM En-Spells enhance weapons but only dealing damage when the shield blocks. Start them at level 40 and then give us a new one every five levels all the way to 75 to include Light and Dark elements. Make them long lasting (say about 2 minutes) and medium MP (say about 30ish). Make the damage inflicted by the elemental effect based on a combination of Shield Skill, Enhancing Magic Skill, and damage blocked. Make the elemental damage caused by these shield spells generate hate at a rate similar to damage from melee attacks. This would allow PLD to generate more damage while increasing our ability to hold hate.

Some sort of Elemental-Spikes abilities? I could think of 10 different spells just for the shield.

-Elemental Resistance : Increasing the resistance to some element for a while.
-Shield Counter : A sort of counter attack when the shield activate, trading some damage back. Could be a lower % rate trait or a duration ability with a bigger rate.
-Mana's Grace : Convert some damage into MP for its duration.

[georgs]

Re: Regarding Job Adjustments mentioned at TGS 06

Honestly, for a continuous ( is that the right spelling...?) battle idea, I would imagine the return of the old shield block with the same proc. rate as of now. At some levels, I find that I block a shit ton and save myself 20-50 damage a fight and then some fights, no blocking what so ever.

I can kind of wrap my head around reducing the recast time of Shield Bash, but that hate spike is kind of...scary. What about lowering the recasting time of defender?

Or adding a few PLD exclusive White Magic...I could make some up, but why bother.

Or an introduction of a new J.A. or J.S. that no one could guess at. Something that was so fantastic, that PLDs would feel some sort of accomplishment in Merit PTs other than, the filler slot. Maybe, that's wishful dreaming.

The retooling of the EXP formula would be nice, rather nice.

And finally, I for one, would like to see a J.A. that somehow increased the proc. rate of the shield block and maybe an upswing in damage done by sword, but you would lose a 1/25 of your HP for each connected blow but regained 1/25 of your MP instead, you could call it "Devout Fury"or something else from a horrid Ronny James Dio album.

[Armando]

Re: Regarding Job Adjustments mentioned at TGS 06

Giving the old shielding effect back with the current system would be fairly broken. 40-45% avoided hits against IT mobs WITHOUT taking Flash into consideration?

[Lmnop]

Re: Regarding Job Adjustments mentioned at TGS 06

not to mention all the PLDs selling their Koenigs for shitty bucklers.

I like the new Shield block system if for no other reason, than because it's different. Reduce damage instead of nullify. That's the basics of PLD vs NIN. Take it, deal with it, find another way to be just as effective. And to that end, S-E has been doing a lot. I'm actually quite pleased with what they've been doing for PLDs.

[csBahamut]

Re: Regarding Job Adjustments mentioned at TGS 06

Giving the old shielding effect back with the current system would be fairly broken. 40-45% avoided hits against IT mobs WITHOUT taking Flash into consideration?

Would still be weaker than the 100% avoidance of Utsusemi. We just wouldn't have the crazy cost of tools. Broken? Yeah. Broken to the point it would unbalance the game? Nope.

Though, I'd rather see something else done. Like a -%damage trait, or a perma-phalanx like trait. The -%damage would be more helpful for big stuff like HNMs, which we don't need so much since we just sub NIN for those anyways. The perma-phalanx would help more for solo and exp. Of course, if it was high enough to effective in exp, we'd be practically invincible on TW and EPs. It'd also effect the Shield Mastery in that we'd probably have a lot of 0 damage blocks, meaning the SHield Mastery would be pointless.

[Enghorr]

Re: Regarding Job Adjustments mentioned at TGS 06

Imo they should fix vit and def vs HNMs, because its broken. -% damage meritable sounds reasonable, or a new JA that makes shield x % higher and stronger blocking.

For example:
Shield of Valor
=Greatly reduce damage taken, 1 mp reduction per tick and last 1 min. Recast of 5 min, meritable would be cool
=SE to not nerf divine magic on nms, seriously when did flash or divine magic overpowering lol
=Flash II and Flash III, if so then Ill just sub /rdm.
=Increase enhancing magic on pld
=increase damage modifier of swift blade

just ideas, I am really curious what the pld update will be lol

[Enghorr]

Re: Regarding Job Adjustments mentioned at TGS 06

in regards of hate, give us ice spikes that be awesome. Ice shield is decent, but ice spikes spell be awesome for tanking.

[Armando]

Re: Regarding Job Adjustments mentioned at TGS 06

Would still be weaker than the 100% avoidance of Utsusemi. We just wouldn't have the crazy cost of tools. Broken? Yeah. Broken to the point it would unbalance the game? Nope.

No, but we shouldn't aim to be another NIN job, otherwise, what the heck's the point of playing PLD anyways? Even if you wanted to "break" the job to match Utsusemi's theorical 100% damage avoidance, we should do it the way PLDs do it - being able to reduce damage and regain MP to the point that we can practically main heal ourselves.

Also, I'm still not convinced Spikes give hate (since Enspells don't,) though I think I know a way to test it.

[csBahamut]

Re: Regarding Job Adjustments mentioned at TGS 06

No, but we shouldn't aim to be another NIN job, otherwise, what the heck's the point of playing PLD anyways? Even if you wanted to "break" the job to match Utsusemi's theorical 100% damage avoidance, we should do it the way PLDs do it - being able to reduce damage and regain MP to the point that we can practically main heal ourselves.
Also, I'm still not convinced Spikes give hate (since Enspells don't,) though I think I know a way to test it.

If you don't make PLD more like NIN, then people won't want to invite the job, because PLD would still be worse than NIN. Face it, SE has to break PLD to make it even comparable to the strength of NIN. You can either have the balance, or you can keep PLDs being as PLD-like as you think they should be.

Just look at NIN.
1) Does more damage than PLD while tanking. (Higher offensive ability than PLD)
2) Take less damage than PLD while tanking. (Higher defensive ability than PLD)

See the imbalance? Something has to change to restore the offensive/defensive balance. Let's look at it from a simplistic design view. Forget the specifics, and just look at what needs done to balance the offensive/defensive balance between these 2 jobs.

/begin mind experiment
First, let's create a rating system for offensive and defensive ability. For simplicities sake, we'll stick with 3 levels.
1) Good
2) Average
3) Bad

Now, typically a job is balanced by being good defensively or offensively, and then bad in the other. Or the job can be average in both. By doing this in a game, balance is created between the jobs. So what happens when you have Job A that's good offensively and good defensively against Job B with bad offense and bad defense? Yeah, that's right. Job imbalance.

Now, how do you fix this? Well, you have to make it so that one job has better offense or defense than the other so that:

Job A: Good offense. Bad defense.
Job B: Bad offense. Good defense.

or

Job A: Average offense. Average defense.
Job B: Average offense. Average defense.

How this is done does not matter at this time. We are only looking at this simplistically. The details can be worked out once we've identified that there's a problem, and where it is.

Now, we already know that:
PLD: Bad offense. Bad Defense.
NIN: Good offense. Good defense.
when comparing the 2. So now we have balance the two. Just like above, we can:
NIN: Good offense. Bad defense.
PLD: Bad offense. Good defense.
or
PLD: Average offense. Average defense.
NIN: Average offense. Average defense.
or
PLD: Good offense. Bad defense.
NIN: Bad offense. Good defense.
Seems kind of silly to have a PLD with better offensive ability than a NIN, but it would create balance between the 2 jobs. Plus, this is only comparing 2 jobs with 2 measuring sticks. There's a lot more to be considered, but simplicity get's the point across much easier.
/end mind experiment

Now, I leave everyone else with the task of seeing how to balnce the jobs based on our little experiment. Do we keep PLD with the defensive ability it has now, and raise it's offensive ability to be greater than a NINs? Do we increase a PLD's defensive ability to take less damage to be better than a NIN, or do we lower the NIN's defensive ability? Maybe we can lower the NIN's offensive ability so that it would match a PLD's, and raise the PLD's defensive ability to take less damage like the NIN so we have two average ability tanks?

[Mikalian]

Re: Regarding Job Adjustments mentioned at TGS 06

I totaly HATE (and I'm talking about Red Sox Vs. Yankees kinda hate here) the idea of PLD being more like NIN in our defensive capabilities (avoiding damage all together) since it's just not what bein a PLD is about. Like csBahamuts Sig says, "Be like a Paladin. Take the hit, shrug it off, and ask if their mom hits any harder.". To that end I have posted a suggestion in the "Ask Square Enix" forum of this site about leveling the playing field in regards to damage dealing capabilities of the two jobs without in anyway "Nerfing" NIN.

Issue: There is a perceived deficiency in the capabilities of PLD/WAR as a tank when compared to NIN/WAR tanks. Not only do PLD/WAR tanks take damage they also lack significantly in the ability to deal damage to monster opponents, where NIN/WAR tanks can avoid nearly all damage through the use of shadows, while at the same time wearing equipment that allows them to become potent damage dealers.

Proposal: Increase damage dealing capabilities through use of the shield. This change would allow PLD to become more competitive with NIN tanks by balancing the damage capabilities of the two primary tank classes while still maintaining distinct stylistic differences.

Suggestion: Create a line of PLD only spells similar in effect to RDM Enspells except PLD spells would imbue their shield with elemental properties which would deal damage to opponents when the shield blocks. The damage from these spells would be calculated based on a combination of damage blocked by the shield, Enhancing Magic skill vs. Enhancing Magic level cap, and Shield skill vs. Shield skill level cap. Damage returned to opponents would be unresisted unless the opponent has an innate resistance to the elemental effect of the given spell. Considering that currently PLDs only Enhancing spells are not affected by Enhancing Magic skill this would encourage PLD players to take the time to increase their skill.

Spell Progression:

PLD40 Earth Shield
PLD45 Ice Shield
PLD50 Water Shield
PLD55 Fire Shield
PLD60 Wind Shield
PLD65 Thunder Shield
PLD70 Light Shield
PLD75 Dark Shield

Spell damage calculations:

DR = Damage Reflected
DB = Damage blocked
CES= Current Enhancing Magic Skill
ESC= Enhancing Magic level cap
CSS= Current Shield Skill
SSC= Shield skill level cap

(DB*.80){[(CES/ESC)/2]+[(CSS/SSC)/2]} = DR

Example: Level: PLD68/WAR34
DB = 100
ESC= 197
CES= 110
SSC= 241
CSS= 239

(100*.80){[(110/197)/2]+[(239/241)/2]} = 62
(100*.80){[.56/2]+[.99/2]} = 62
(100*.80){.28+.49} = 62
(100*.80)*.77 = 62
80 * .77 = 62
(Please keep in mind that my use of .80 as a base for damage blocked/reflected represents what I think would be a realistic maximum)

MP cost: 30
Duration: 2 minutes
Recast: 1 minute

How to obtain the Scrolls: I have several options I'm thinking of right now so I'm going to lay them out and let you guys help me decide what to submit along with the proposal.

Option #1: Rare drop from Elementals of the appropriate type roughly 5 levels higher than the level of the spell to be gained.

Option #2: Rare drop from PLD type monsters roughly 5-10 levels above the level of the spell to be gained.

Option #3: Guaranteed drop from wandering NM elementals of the appropriate type.

Option #4: Rare reward from BCNM's of appropriate levels unless there is a PLD in the party doing the BCNM then it would be a common (but not guaranteed) reward.

Option #5: Quested item with the quest only being started and completed by a PLD of the appropriate level (or higher) with no NM fight.

Option #6: Quested item with a fight versus a forced spawn NM Elemental of appropriate type and strength to require an entire party of characters of the level of the spell to be gained to defeat.

Option #7: Any combination of some or all of the above options.

My personal favorite is a combination of #5 and #6 with a story about how during the Crystal War a great Tarutaru Black Mage watched Paladins fall by the hundreds defending their weaker counterparts from the wrath of the beastmen and monsters without being able to significantly damage the beastmen and the monsters in turn. After the war the great Black Mage went into seclusion and began researching ways to correct this problem, but unfortunately he was unable to complete this work before he died. However, his apprentice has taken up his work and needs the players help to complete it. The player character must go to the far ends of Vana’diel and return with certain items, some obtained from fighting monsters either forced spawn or roaming, and others obtained through more conventional means (Auction House, crafted, gardened, NPC bought etc.). Upon completion of the quest the player character would be given the appropriate scroll and told to come back later as the apprentice must “… continue their research if they are ever going to figure outaru all these scribble-wibbles”. Save the spell “Dark Shield” and the quest for it for level 75 Paladins and make the requirements for completion extremely difficult. After all Paladins are warriors and defenders of Light so the ability to use the powers of their enemies against them must be restricted to only those of the purest faith and truest devotion to avoid corruption. Also after completing all eight quests the player would receive a new title such as “Bearer of the Eight Fold Shield” or some such.

Conclusions: As you can see this idea would not overpower PLD/WAR but would allow them to compete with NIN/WAR in damage dealing capabilities while maintaining their unique tanking style. Also these changes would be in line with recent changes Square Enix has implemented to the PLD job (Shield Mastery building TP) to allow PLD to deal more damage.

I would appreciate all of you giving this idea some serious thought. Please keep in mind that it's been over eleven years since I have taken any math courses so my equations might not look right but the basic math behind them should be sound. Also I realise the chances of SE actually implementing this idea are slim but if you think it's a good idea please go to the original version in the Ask SE forum and show your support. It can't hurt, and you never know, it might just help.

Original suggestion in Ask SE forum here:

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/ask...ly-spells.html