Regarding Job Adjustments mentioned at TGS 06

[Raydeus]

Re: Regarding Job Adjustments mentioned at TGS 06

If you don't make PLD more like NIN, then people won't want to invite the job, because PLD would still be worse than NIN. Face it, SE has to break PLD to make it even comparable to the strength of NIN. You can either have the balance, or you can keep PLDs being as PLD-like as you think they should be.

Is that really what you want? Do you really want PLDs to become NIN clones? If that was the case then I'd just level NIN and avoid the headaches.

The reason why I play PLD is because I like the PLD way of tanking and the way PLD plays in general. What I can or can't do compared to NINs means nothing to me.

PLD40 Earth Shield
PLD45 Ice Shield
PLD50 Water Shield
PLD55 Fire Shield
PLD60 Wind Shield
PLD65 Thunder Shield
PLD70 Light Shield
PLD75 Dark Shield

That wouldn't work for PLDs because we can't use Elemental magic, all PLD spells are Light based and Divine/Enhancing skill, the reason why RDM can use spikes and other elemental spells is because they use both Black and White magic.

___________


Now, if we were able to completely sustain ourselves against an IT mob then WHM would be left out and we'd just become another Burn job.

I think some PLD adjustments along with that MB/SC improvements Icemage is talking about in another thread would make things better not only for PLDs but for regular parties. All the jobs are in this together and what SE needs is to find a way to make regular parties as efficient or more than burn parties.

So the adjustments have to be made considering all the other jobs, not comparing PLD with NIN.


For me PLD needs an +Emnity ability (but not a Voke kinda thing), but something that would boost the amount of hate we generate by +20 Emnity or more while the Ability is active.

A 3 min recast and a 5 min duration is what I have in mind.

The point of this is quite simple, PLD is a defensive job, so we are never gonna go to an XP party in full DD gear unless we wanna play NIN-clone in a Burn party. So, what we need is something that lets all the DD jobs deal all the DMG they can without holding back and without having to worry about getting killed because of hate.

That would cover for the dmg PLD isn't doing.

That would also make fights last less and make the xp/hour increase.

At lower lvls even with a PLD tank it isn't rare for DDs to hold back simply because even the PLD can't hold hate against a good DD (Edit > It actually gets worse as you lvl up XD). That made many DDs have to sub /NIN so they could survive when they got hate, they also have to give their backs to the mob to reduce the amount of hate.

All those things make kills slower and more painful, if all that could be eliminated, if 2 DDs could perform at 100% without having to worry about hate then the /NIN would also decrease. Setting a good SC with DDs performing at 100% and a good MB would take care of a mob even without a boost to MB damage.

This Ability I'm talking about would enhance PLD's role in the party while making it easier for DD's and mages to do their jobs.


IF you wanna compare this with NIN then it would be something like this:

NIN Great Defense, Good Offense

PLD Good Defense, Great Emnity



Edit > About this Emnity boost it would only apply to Spells and Abilities, but not to melee attacks.

The point of this is to generate spike Emnity that would degrade fast, rather than making it so PLDs could just sub /NIN and Burn the crap out of everything.

Edit +1 > Also, about the Emnity bonus it would be proportional to the amount of Emnity the Ability/Spell generates. For instance a Cure kinda spell would get a minimal bonus, while things like Flash and Voke would get a really good bonus.

[Karinya]

Re: Regarding Job Adjustments mentioned at TGS 06

The main problem is not the players, but the monsters. TAU has many monsters that are too weak for their level (or too high level for their strength, whichever way you want to look at it). If those imps that were about as strong as an EM actually *were* EM instead of VT, people wouldn't want to exp on them; and when you get back to monsters that are strong enough to matter, ninjas often can't keep shadows 100% or keep hate 100% and in both cases someone gets hurt.

In any case, given the populations of each job, paladins aren't in much danger of losing party slots to ninjas; what hurts paladins is the viablity of parties with no tank at all (or, at most, a semi-tank like WAR/NIN in full DD setup). This is the same problem WHM has - they aren't competing with a better healer, they're competing with no healer and more DD.

Basically, encourage players to fight monsters strong enough that you really need a tank, and tanks will be more desirable. Ditto healers. Unbalanced offense-only parties might be an ok way to relieve the excess population of DDs, but they should make about the same exp as traditional setups, not drastically more exp, otherwise they become the new standard and anyone who can't fit into them gets left out. Every job can usefully fill some role in a balanced party (except maybe PUP, haven't seen enough of them to be sure); allowing a new party setup to be *better* than a traditional party setup risks creating a new split into wanted and unwanted jobs.

Come to think of it, that makes it like it's an uncertain event that could happen in the future, rather than something that has already happened.


One thing I think that would help is to keep shortening the chain timer beyond #5 (although the exp bonus doesn't increase further). Killing the infinite chain would amount to a ~20% cut even without any other changes IIRC, which would bring VT massacres closer to the exp rate of balanced parties.

Then have the 3 nations adopt some of the Empire's technology and allow people to buy bonuses with Signet the way they can with Sanction. That would restore parity to pre-TAU exp camps like Uleguerand, Lufaise or Moongate. (Some pop timer adjustment might help too.)


But, of course, all this analysis is assuming that SE broke the exp system by *accident* and they *want* to fix it. If they broke the exp system on *purpose* to sell copies of TAU, then don't expect any serious attempt to address the current issues (particularly in the viability of pre-TAU camps). At most they might throw PLD and WHM some kind of bone to keep us from canceling accounts before the next expansion comes out.

[csBahamut]

Re: Regarding Job Adjustments mentioned at TGS 06

Is that really what you want? Do you really want PLDs to become NIN clones? If that was the case then I'd just level NIN and avoid the headaches.
The reason why I play PLD is because I like the PLD way of tanking and the way PLD plays in general. What I can or can't do compared to NINs means nothing to me.
That wouldn't work for PLDs because we can't use Elemental magic, all PLD spells are Light based and Divine/Enhancing skill, the reason why RDM can use spikes and other elemental spells is because they use both Black and White magic.

I never said that was what I wanted, only that that was what would have to be done to bring balance to the game. Nerfing NIN will just make NIN unpopular for WS-burns, adding another job to the list of unwanted for endgame.

While I would prefer PLD to be a primarily best defense with average offense, I'd much rather see PLD stay useful and wanted. Right now, NIN holds the title of best defense. They even get gear with -%damage and +emnity! Add shadows to that, and NINs are taking way less damage.

I just think that SE intends to make PLD more like NIN, WAR/NIN, etc. They're already doing it for 2-handed users with SAM for a sub. Does it really make sense to have a tank that takes more damage than the DDs? Also, does it make sense that a tank has to turtle up for easy mobs?

Sometimes what's best for us isn't what we want, but it's better to just accept it and adjust.

[Radel-King_of_Pirates]

Re: Regarding Job Adjustments mentioned at TGS 06

Sometimes what's best for us isn't what we want, but it's better to just accept it and adjust.

Yes I agree with you on most part of your post but what I have quoted I am sorry I can't agree with. Human nature is to adjust but instead of us adjusting to the fight we want the fight to adjust to us. Everyone wants what will make it easier for them to gain most emp, gil and best gear ever easiest way they can.

Paladins job isn't the problem it is the other jobs that want to just "get by," I on the other hand would like to say in Jeuno and Aht Urgan shouting in all area, "I bought this game to release stress and be a challange to me so stop taking short cuts, and play the damn game."

[Armando]

Re: Regarding Job Adjustments mentioned at TGS 06

csBahamut, I think you missed my point. I'm not saying they shouldn't make PLD as efficient as NIN. I'm saying turning it into another NIN is just...stupid. If they're going to break us and give us the same efficiency as Utsusemi, they should do it the PLD way. There's more solutions than just blinking away 90% of all attacks.

The problem as it is now is that PLDs take damage, damage requires healing, healing requires MP, and PLDs don't have enough MP to heal themselves on their own. IF you really want to make us broken*, a possible solution would be to reward us with MP for taking damage. If you gave PLDs an MP-to-damage ratio high enough that, coupled with what we get from Refresh, Sanction Refresh, and Auto Refresh, we could nearly main-heal ourselves, then you'd have a tank that's essentially as efficient as NIN (because it's practically maintainance-free,) yet isn't just another NIN clone. It does what a PLD is supposed to do - take damage and cure it.

Sometimes what's best for us isn't what we want, but it's better to just accept it and adjust.

Why adjust when a different, more satisfactory solution is feasable?

*Disclaimer: I don't intend to get into wether or not it's ok to "make us as broken as NIN," or wether or not NIN is really that broken. Neither subject is relevant to the point I was trying to make, and both topics are complicated and delicate enough to start an entire thread's worth of discussion and debate (and probably flaming) for each.

I agree with Karinya, what we really need is for S-E to make traditional party setups worth it. I'm not saying meleeburns shouldn't exist - if S-E is ok with manaburns, then surely meleeburns are ok too. They're ok as alternatives, because having a system in which only a certain kind of party setup works is too strict, but they shouldn't be the norm. Partying has always been about having a tank, a healer, DDs, and support jobs all cooperating together in different ways, and doing efficient damage through skillchains and magic bursts, not just throwing a lot of melees or mages at a mob until it dies.

[Aeni]

Re: Regarding Job Adjustments mentioned at TGS 06

I think totally negating all physical damage and as well as (in some cases) magical damage is a bit overpowered. There has to be some catch to it (strings attached if you will) and not having even that in place is equivalent to typing /cheat godmode on

With that said, NINs do have strings attached and if they never did, SE would make sure that the opponents that NINs would face have strengths that would expose weaknesses with a NIN.

That being said, this does not stop the community from finding a loophole in the system and exploit them to their advantage. I liken it to a comic I found on a WoW guild's website:




And this is 90% of all "high" end game shells (meaning the first to cut their teeth on the newest, baddest HNMs that SE puts into the game) Let's face it, that day that the first LS beat AV was also the least proudest moment when they used a terrain bug in that zone to defeat AV. Hardly what I would call anything to congratulate anyone about. Might as well type in /cheat godmode on

But back to my post...

Because hardly anyone is expected to play "fair" and have no qualms in alienating job classes to get what they want, we have some major issues in the game, not excluding the current PLD versus NIN drama that's been a mainstay for the past 2+ years now.

Where I stand on this argument.

-No, I do not want complete physical & magical damage avoidance for paladins.

If you do that, then get rid of the paladin job class and take the best aspects of the paladin and combine it with ninja. Then make current battles (Exp, BC, etc) three times more difficult to just balance things off.

-Yes, I believe current implementation of physical & magical avoidance for ninjas need to be adjusted.

Simply giving less shadows per cast is a joke, in my book. So is increasing casting times. So is throwing in more AoE since that hurts everyone else as well. However, changing the way it behaves as many, many others in this forum have suggested might be the more plausible way to do things. This will make everyone think twice before wanting to sub NIN just so they can live longer in tough fights.

-Paladins don't need to be more buffed. We just need more "better" players to support paladins.

I believe the whole problem right now is that there are many lazy players in this game, some new, but majority of them are jaded veteran players or players used to doing things the easy way (And with illegal usage of 3rd party software on the rise, it really shows) I think the only way to tackle the problems in the game, with regards to "class imbalance" is to change the psychology of players and possibly breaking myths and nonsense that live on in the form of class stereotypes. I know I've been guilty of such nonsense before, but never to the degree where I'm alienating whole classes of players and even condemning some without ever having to give them a chance due to their choice of job class. This has to end or we'll have the problems just get worse and worse as time goes by. I shudder to think what would happen when the game starts to degrade into a state where there's population imbalance within the class framework itself.