PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

[Aeni]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

I was thinking more about the whole package, actually. WAR has Double Attack, Attack Bonus, Berserk, and Aggressor, and with Shield Break you can increase the damage of your spells as well.

Wasn't there a running joke comic with regards to older FF games in which Warriors had no intelligence (INT)? Anyway, as a spellcaster, WAR is a joke. So in other words, rather than maximizing the full potential of the melee a WAR is capable of, you're limiting with only half of what it can do.

Nice try, but it won't ever come close to even a /MNK. Don't even try to compare it to /NIN which is in a different league altogether.

[Armando]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

Nice try, but it won't ever come close to even a /MNK. Don't even try to compare it to /NIN which is in a different league altogether.

For what reason? MNK can't tank with meat food and Berserk at the same time. That on its own already stacks the odds against /MNK. /NIN spends a hell of a lot of time putting up shadows, and gets hit anyways. And it's not like spamming physical Blue magic can even be considered spellcasting all that much. It doesn't cut down on your melee DD'ing, you don't need to swap to INT/MND and MAB to make the spells efficient, you don't have to deal with resists, or the spell's element for that matter. And, of course, there's the fact that a Black Mage trying to use Blue Magic on IT mobs would be an absolute joke. The only thing WAR/BLU has working against it is max MP size.

It's true that I haven't done this in a real EXP'ing situation, but nothing about my knowledge of game mechanics says it wouldn't work, outside of having to find open-minded people. If you're going to shoot down my idea, you should at least take the time to explain why it wouldn't work, just like I took the time to explain why it might. And even if you did tell me why, I'd still try. That kind of thinking is what prevents things like PLD/RDM or BRD/NIN tanking from being discovered.

[Aeni]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

For what reason? MNK can't tank with meat food and Berserk at the same time. That on its own already stacks the odds against /MNK. /NIN spends a hell of a lot of time putting up shadows, and gets hit anyways.

I'm not talking about tanking. I'm talking about damage dealing. Which is what a WAR should be doing.

WAR tanking? It has been already proven many times over by players and community even before you picked up this game that it is ineffective and inefficient even on VT type monsters post level 50. I seriously do not think that a WAR/BLU would even be much more effective than a WAR/NIN trying to tank Toramas at level 64, for example, and that's when those monsters start to con VT.

Again, there's a difference between theorycraft and actual data. I don't see *anything* different with what BLU can give a WAR to allow WAR to all of a sudden become viable exp tanks. For the past 3 years, that is not what they needed to tank. The changes that are needed must be made to the main job class and not just adding a new subjob. The basic problems (Low parrying skill, NO guarding skill, etc.) is still there no matter what you do.

PLD/??? would still work because the fundamental job class has the role shoehorned on them. That is the role of tanking. That is why it works or why it is even possible to make it work.

WAR/??? as tanking can work if you (a) Take on nothing higher than T mobs and (b) are geared specifically to try and cover up the holes in the job class.

I've had a PT try WAR/NIN tank VT bats in KRT. Did it work? Nope. PT wiped on the 2nd bat.

I've had several PTs try WAR/MNK tank VT raptors in Kuftal. Did it work? Sure, if you consider 5 min. rest every fight in order to regain mp.

Do I think WAR/BLU is any better? No. Why? Because the fundamental weakness of the job class is still there and does not change regardless of what subjob you put on it.

Although, to be honest, I've yet to get into a PT that tried to force a WAR to sub PLD to tank. :/

[Lmnop]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

WAR tanking? It has been already proven many times over by players and community even before you picked up this game that it is ineffective and inefficient even on VT type monsters post level 50.

I love you, dear. But please don't post this bull shit like it's proven fact.

Read Armando's posts on the Warrior Forums labeled something extremely obvious like "War/blu tanking" or something. Then, if you feel really bored, dig up all posts by ZQM and how he tanked his way to 75.

At any rate, the point about war/blu is to establish a means that war could effectively tank without abusing /nin. Something with hate mitigation closer to a pld or nin but with the DD of a full-offense WAR. I can tell you that /mnk does not significantly increase your damage output. /nin will pretty much always do more for you, so I'm not sure what your point was when you said war/mnk for DD.

If War/blu works*, it would not only tank well and give a fresh outlook on how to play the WAR job, it would create a tank very unlike the existing tank options. It wouldn't play at all like War/whm, let alone Pld.

And I don't mind creating a new method of play based on Subjob. Although so many hate being slave to it, drk/thf is a good example. Or pld/war (dynamic, high hate tank even though they could have subbed mnk or rdm years ago for higher damage mitigation).

*you're right, it's theorycraft (that's a word? o0 sweet). But who are you to shoot it down before it's even been tried? This game isn't made out of magic. It's programmed, and based off of math. To say number crunching does nothing is like saying fire doesn't burn stuff. And the numbers say that if you have an alert healer and a refresher, a war/blu could take a 5% damage cut and kick the tank out of the party.

[Releena]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

Yes, there is certainly an ammount of time after a spell's completion during which you can't use another spell, JA, WS, or item. I've measured this time to be somewhere between 2 and 3 seconds. However, this ammount of time is fixed for all spells, is independent from the spell's animation, and does NOT stop your Autoattack timer. Bludgeon's animation takes over 3 seconds - I can (and have) hit the mob with a melee attack during the Bludgeon animation, and started casting spells before the animation is over. Try it yourself - figure out your weapon's delay in seconds (Delay/60 * (1 - Haste%)), start autoattacking something, and after you hit the mob, start counting until there's less than a second left for your next attack. Cast Bludgeon. Your melee attack will come up during Bludgeon's animation. Now, cast Bludgeon again. From the second the spell started casting, count 3 seconds, and on the third, cast something else.

I'll try to pay more attention to this, but as a WAR/NIN there seems to be a gap where I haven't attacked when casting Utsusemi Ni where if the autoattack timer never paused I should have seen the next attack around. That is with 20% haste gear, Haste spell, and single or double March. I have seen attacks in the chat log around the same time as WS, but that is to be expected. We can both definitely agree that the timer is running during the majority of the animation, I'm still not convinced that it is always doing so as you claim, however.

But a WAR/NIN with Joyeuse will give the mob 10 TP per hit as well, and if you have 2 or 3 WAR/NINs in the same manaburn party...

Not quite, it is around 8-8.5 TP per hit. As I said, close to half the TP of Bludgeon.

Anyway, I wish you the best of luck in your experiment.

WAR tanking? It has been already proven many times over by players and community even before you picked up this game that it is ineffective and inefficient even on VT type monsters post level 50.

Hmm, there are a few things wrong with this statement. First, you are forgetting to exclude that they become very capable tanks at 74+. WAR merit parties on every server can attest to this fact. Also, people have tanked HNMs such as Fafnir just fine with WAR, killing just as fast as you would with any other tank.

Second, who said you need to only have 1 tank? Get a clue from endgame and use multiple tanks sharing hate. My friends leveled with 2 WAR/NINs and were able to hit chain 6+ starting from level ~30 all the way to 70+. I wasn't a part of this, but I did have a PT in Garlaige around level 50 on PLD with a WHM as the only support and we were able to get chain 4-5(there were several BSTs around & 1 other PT) with 3 WAR/NINs sharing hate. I threw out flashes, cures, and voked when the other WARs failed to.

Again, there's a difference between theorycraft and actual data. I don't see *anything* different with what BLU can give a WAR to allow WAR to all of a sudden become viable exp tanks. For the past 3 years, that is not what they needed to tank. The changes that are needed must be made to the main job class and not just adding a new subjob. The basic problems (Low parrying skill, NO guarding skill, etc.) is still there no matter what you do.
PLD/??? would still work because the fundamental job class has the role shoehorned on them. That is the role of tanking. That is why it works or why it is even possible to make it work.
Although, to be honest, I've yet to get into a PT that tried to force a WAR to sub PLD to tank. :/

I think you've got it backwards. What would a WAR gain from subbing PLD? You get more MP subbing WHM if you're trying to be a ghetto PLD. With Flash at 74 I'd say it's a completely useless sub since you'll keep better hate subbing /NIN.

PLD doesn't have the role of tank embedded in it, look at the two most popular subs for tanking, /NIN and /WAR. PLD has no reliable hate gaining JA(Provoke), and no innate damage mitigation feature(Utsusemi or Defender). PLD is extremely reliant on SJ.

I do agree that you're right about WAR/BLU, though. There are basically 2 ways to hold hate: curing, which is absolutely needed to keep hate if you're bloodtanking, or not losing hate by not being hit often.

[Karinya]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

WAR tanking? It has been already proven many times over by players and community even before you picked up this game that it is ineffective and inefficient even on VT type monsters post level 50.

Wow, that's so completely wrong I hardly know where to start.

Well, how about the perfectly obvious point that BLU didn't exist then, therefore */BLU didn't exist then, so such comments can't possibly apply to it. (You can also throw in all the new gear, foods and mobs introduced in the last, oh, 3 years, but I don't want to make this too complicated.)

I seriously do not think that a WAR/BLU would even be much more effective than a WAR/NIN trying to tank Toramas at level 64, for example, and that's when those monsters start to con VT.

Cocoon is much stronger than Utsusemi:Ichi (unless you are spreading hate over several people so that they rarely take an actual hit). It also casts quicker and lasts longer and is therefore less vulnerable to disruption by paralysis, silence and ordinary interruption.

Granted, anyone tanking Toramas is in deep shit if their WHM isn't paying attention, but that applies to full NINs and to PLDs as well as WAR/*. Maybe that has something to do with why Onzozo is usually deserted lately.

Again, there's a difference between theorycraft and actual data.

Indeed. I look forward to seeing Armando's actual data on this. In fact, if I get my BLU to 37, I might try collecting some actual data on it myself as PLD75/BLU37.

But if you acknowledge the weakness of theory, why do you spend the whole rest of your post putting forth unsupported theories about why WAR isn't a good tank in your opinion?

I don't see *anything* different with what BLU can give a WAR to allow WAR to all of a sudden become viable exp tanks.

+50% defense with no loss of attack doesn't seem significant to you? The ability to spam extra damage and stuns isn't relevant to hate holding?

Really, have you ever tanked at all?

For the past 3 years, that is not what they needed to tank. The changes that are needed must be made to the main job class and not just adding a new subjob. The basic problems (Low parrying skill, NO guarding skill, etc.) is still there no matter what you do.

Guarding skill? That's MNK only. Parrying is too rare to be significant in tanking even for NIN.

WAR has defense bonus and can wear some of the highest defense armors and shields in the game; has Defender (if desired, although Cocoon may well make you able to tank without Defender up); has decent (although not great) shield skill; and has great hate-producing tools.

PLD/??? would still work because the fundamental job class has the role shoehorned on them. That is the role of tanking. That is why it works or why it is even possible to make it work.
WAR/??? as tanking can work if you (a) Take on nothing higher than T mobs and (b) are geared specifically to try and cover up the holes in the job class.

No tank will succeed if they are not geared to tank. This is the #1 reason people think WAR tanking doesn't work - they grab a DD-geared WAR, ask him to throw on a tanking SJ (that he isn't even used to) and tank, and then watch what happens.

PLD always have up-to-date tanking gear (except for a few absolute idiots). WAR usually don't. If a WAR *does* know what they are doing making a tank setup, it works just fine at any level. The fact that you have partied with some WARs that were bad at tanking does not mean all WARs are bad at tanking or that WAR as a job is bad at tanking. The *job's* ability to tank is defined by its best players, not its worst or even the average or typical player.

I've had a PT try WAR/NIN tank VT bats in KRT. Did it work? Nope. PT wiped on the 2nd bat.

/NIN is a terrible tank sub up to level 73. Once your Utsu:Ichi goes down you have hardly anything to fall back on and can't recast it as long as hate is still on you. WAR/NIN also has low hate generation compared to other tanking subs. You need several people to bounce hate around in order for /NINs to tank anything even *post* 74.

I've had several PTs try WAR/MNK tank VT raptors in Kuftal. Did it work? Sure, if you consider 5 min. rest every fight in order to regain mp.

What was the rest of the party setup? Gear? Tactics? Did you just grab some WAR that was looking for a DD spot and tell him to change his SJ and start provoking? Parties fail for many reasons; blaming the guy with the unusual job combination is common, but not necessarily correct.

Anecdotes - particularly vague anecdotes - are not "actual data".

Do I think WAR/BLU is any better? No. Why? Because the fundamental weakness of the job class is still there and does not change regardless of what subjob you put on it.

What weakness is that?

There are 2 things a tank needs to be able to do to succeed:
1. Hold the monster's attention - in other words, generate more hate than other party members.
2. Survive the monster's attacks, preferably without needing too much healing.

WAR/* does just fine at enmity (especially pre-70 when they're the only job with Warcry) and for most of the game they can wear the same armor as PLD, with nearly as good a Defense Bonus trait.

Most WARs are inexperienced at tanking tactics, don't have good tanking gear, or both. But I've never seen a *competent* WAR tank do poorly. The limitation is not in the job, but in some of the players.


P.S. Why does the preview function keep smashing my whitespace? Whitespace is important to readability, especially of long posts. It shouldn't be mangled for no good reason.

[lionx]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

For the past 3 years, that is not what they needed to tank. The changes that are needed must be made to the main job class and not just adding a new subjob. The basic problems (Low parrying skill, NO guarding skill, etc.) is still there no matter what you do.

I thought this was really funny since it was somehow saying to me that a WAR subless should be able to tank just fine, and a sj is only optional...>_>; Can a NIN or PLD tank without a subjob..? I highly doubt it...

[Releena]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

+50% defense with no loss of attack doesn't seem significant to you? The ability to spam extra damage and stuns isn't relevant to hate holding?

Head Butt stun from sub on an exp mob is extremely unlikely. That was nerfed a while ago.

[Armando]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

Hoo boy. I've missed quite a bit. I'm having a hard time picking where to begin

I'm not talking about tanking. I'm talking about damage dealing. Which is what a WAR should be doing.

Looks like we had a communication failure. I've been interested in WAR/BLU solely for its tanking possibilities. Subbing /BLU just for the added damage doesn't justify adding one more strain on the RDM or sacrificing a melee-enhancing roll or song and further complicating any positioning.

Anyways, Aeni, even if I accepted the fact that WAR can't tank, your argument seems kind of...lacking? All you did was arbitrarily depict WARs as being squishy, inefficient tanks using nothing but anecdotes. Moreover, you say that PLD/Whatever works because "the fundamental job class has the role shoehorned on them." Are you saying PLD can sub anything and hold hate? Come on, PLD is supposed to be the game's ideal tank job and yet it still needs a sub to be able to hold hate. PLD/WAR works because of Provoke, PLD/RDM works because of RDM's high-hate enfeebles, and if PLD/BLU works, it works because of the increased damage that BLU sub allows the PLD to do, both directly (spells) and indirectly (eating Sushi.) What about NINs? Tanking is NOT supposed to be part of the fundamental job class. And yet, they stilll tank, and quite efficiently. Some may argue that they do it too efficiently. And finally, how can you say that tanking is not part of the WAR's job, when it was the game's primary tank?

I've never believed in saying X job can't do so-and-so because it's a <insert label here.> Can a PLD not DD to a certain extenct? But the PLD's fundamental role, defined by both S-E and the players, is to be a tank. Can a RDM tank? Sure they can, at the right level, with the right setup. Can't BRDs tank, too? Can't DRGs main heal under the right conditions? A job is a set of stats and abilities, nothing more. We can't break the limitations of the game's mathematics and calculations, but we can certainly use those stats and abilities in ways contrary to the job's label.

Do I think WAR/BLU is any better? No. Why? Because the fundamental weakness of the job class is still there and does not change regardless of what subjob you put on it.

Counterargument: BRDs are squishy. A BRD can generate lots of hate with a certain song, but is unable to tank, because the BRD is squishy. The BRD subs /NIN. Now, the BRD hardly gets hit. Did the sub job not remove the job's fundamental weakness?

Now, my thoughts on WAR tanking are (and I'm aware I'm preaching to the choir here)...WAR can tank. This is an undeniable, hard fact. WARs have tanked for years, and still do tank. It IS a fact that WAR/NIN has become extremely popular, and that the general concensus nowadays says that WAR is primarily a DD...but that doesn't change the fact that WAR can tank. The problem stems from the fact that, until now, PLD does it much better. WARs can achieve practically the same Defense levels (while reaching the same low levels of Attack as a PLD in the stat tradeoff), wear practically the same armor, and have access to Size 3 shields post-48, and probably have a high enough shield skill to reach the same shielding rates on IT mobs as PLDs. Both have access to powerful weapons and comparable WS. Up 'til that point, they're on even ground. But PLDs have 1) Flash, and 2) MP to Cure themselves with.

Those two things, on their own, tip the scales in favor of the PLD when it comes to mitigating damage. Moreover, Refresh, one of the most important spells in the entire game, further enhances the PLD by sacrificing a small ammount of MP and giving the PLD a sizeable ammount of MP to mitigate damage with for free, whereas there is no equivalent that only the WAR can take advantage of (there's Regen, but Regen can be used on either tank.) Nothing any sub could provide, with the exception of /NIN under special conditions, could increase WAR's damage mitigation to be comparable to that of PLDs (taking into account HP recovered from self-Cures,) or increase their damage output while tanking to the point that they're just as efficient. I'm restating what I've been saying so far, but I believe that /BLU will allow WARs to increase their damage mitigation greatly while putting out significant damage, blue magic spam or not, and thus make them efficient tanks. If you don't think a 50% Defense Buff that can even overwrite Defense Down moves and doesn't make you sacrifice ANY offense at all is a big deal, surely you're crazy. Will it work? I don't know yet. Can it fail? Certainly. But there is a big possibility that it will work, and you can't deny that.

Not quite, it is around 8-8.5 TP per hit. As I said, close to half the TP of Bludgeon.

You're right, after doing the math it's 8.4 TP per hit if you have Suppa and a standard 276 Delay Axe (Maneater, anyone?) However, while it's closer to being half of what Bludgeon gives, you can go through two dual weild attack rounds in the same ammount of time it'd take for Bludgeon's timer to cool down. And even then, it's besides the point. My point was that the mob TP is highly irrelevant. If not Joyeuse, then Ridill. Or Soboro Sukehiro. Same concept. Would you nerf your own damage potential in order to not give the mob any more TP than usual? It's a silly notion, because practically everything that helps us do more damage feeds the mob TP at a faster rate. More Acc? Yup. Double Attack merits? Yup. Haste? Yup. Just about the only things that don't are Attack/STR and Crits. And, that aside, mobs gain TP at such a fast rate that even Subtle Blow is a joke of a stat. Consider that every melee gives the mob their TP gain +3, consider how sushi is the norm for food until you start fighting VT-only at endgame burn parties, consider how many melees you have swinging at the mob...now add a nuker or two as well. Mobs gain 100 TP in a matter of seconds. Now consider that the great majority of the time, the mob will hold its TP, sometimes even reaching 300 without using it. You can't be afraid to give the mob TP.

And, yeah, Head Butt wasn't really stunning much against the mobs, and when it did stun, it lasted little. Still, Head Butt is some nice damage for its MP cost, so it's still good to use even if it doesn't stun. It does stun fairly often on EP mobs, though.

Don't have any new data yet, but I did confirm a few things. It seems that, for the purposes of the game's immunity statuses, physical blue spells are treated as melee/ranged attacks, not magic. I did a BCNM60 Grimshell Shocktroopers your-orb-your-drop run in a pickup group as PLD/WAR, but there was a BLU in the party. You basically fight 6 Quadavs, each with a different job, and each can two-hour. When the BLU cast spells on the PLD and it had Invincible up, the spells would always land for 0, and when he tried on the THF and it had Perfect Dodge, they always missed (no surprise there, though.) Earlier, Zaphier and I wanted to skill up weapons, so I suggested going to Xarcabard. I picked on some ahrimans and confirmed that Magic Shield does not stop physical blue spells, and that Airy Shield (ranged attack immunity) causes Feather Storm to automatically fail (and it WAS landing on these...and on the EP skeletons and bats in Garlaige when I was helping Zaph with the Guardian Statue for RDM AF...still have no freaking clue why it fails on the VT spiders!) So yeah. I'm guessing that for Mammets, they'll absorb physical blue magic damage just like they do with melee attacks, and ignore the spells when they're absorbing magic damage.

[Releena]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

I want to make it clear that I'm not making any value judgments about whether the extra TP to the mob matters or not, my point was just making it clear to everyone that it was there. I use Joyeuse and if I had Ridill I'd use that too.

On the subject of auto attack again, you claim that there is no pause for either spells or ws. Now, as a PLD fighting ToA mobs like Puks or Colibri, you need to time your cures or you will get interrupted, especially when no one is casting Slow. Whenever a TP move is used it always throws off my timing because the next attack does not occur when I expect it, it is always late. This is consistent behavior that I have noted, albeit anecdotal. You could make the argument that player behavior and mob behavior are different, although I see no reason why this would be so.

I am now soloing Lesser Colibri while LFG. I have timed a consistent gap between mob attacks when the mob uses a TP move of 1-2 seconds. Me casting Flash adds ~2 seconds to my next attack time, with a spell cast of only 0.5 seconds, normal attack round being ~4 seconds, with Flash cast in-between it rises to 6-7 seconds. My weapon has 287 delay including +30 delay for Flash, so it should never take more than 5 seconds. Although 6 seconds can be explained by timing imprecision, 7 cannot. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this point as even with testing I am not seeing the same thing as you.

[Armando]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

I want to make it clear that I'm not making any value judgments about whether the extra TP to the mob matters or not, my point was just making it clear to everyone that it was there. I use Joyeuse and if I had Ridill I'd use that too.

No, I understand. You were just pointing out things that may need to be taken into consideration, and that's always a good thing. Sometimes I just get too caught up in my explanations

On the subject of auto attack again, you claim that there is no pause for either spells or ws. Now, as a PLD fighting ToA mobs like Puks or Colibri, you need to time your cures or you will get interrupted, especially when no one is casting Slow. Whenever a TP move is used it always throws off my timing because the next attack does not occur when I expect it, it is always late. This is consistent behavior that I have noted, albeit anecdotal. You could make the argument that player behavior and mob behavior are different, although I see no reason why this would be so.

I have also noticed this behavior as well. I believe this behavior is mob-specific, for two reasons: the delay after they use a TP move is MUCH larger than ours (regardless of wether or not we can start autoattacking right after we WS), and some moves in particular give a ridiculous ammount of delay. Take, for example, Weapons. Whirl of Rage and Smite of Rage both have really long charge-up time, so long that you can outrun Whirl of Rage and completely negate the attack. But, even so, the weapon stays frozen in place for plenty of seconds even after the attack has resolved - it won't even give chase! They seem to be completely unable to respond for a little while, whereas we can attack during WS animations (noticeably so on the longer ones) regardless of wether there is a pause in the autoattack timer. For more typical TP moves, though, it's almost as if their attack timer resets upon using their TP. Not sure what to make of it, but their behavior is definetely differerent from ours in that one way.

I am now soloing Lesser Colibri while LFG. I have timed a consistent gap between mob attacks when the mob uses a TP move of 1-2 seconds. Me casting Flash adds ~2 seconds to my next attack time, with a spell cast of only 0.5 seconds, normal attack round being ~4 seconds, with Flash cast in-between it rises to 6-7 seconds. My weapon has 287 delay including +30 delay for Flash, so it should never take more than 5 seconds. Although 6 seconds can be explained by timing imprecision, 7 cannot. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this point as even with testing I am not seeing the same thing as you.

Interesting. When I have time later on, I'll test it out again. Although, if there IS a pause, I would assume it's uniform for all spells; the fact that Bludgeon has a longer animation shouldn't make it have a longer pause.

Edit: Fun fact - while I was out there in Xarcabard, a Demon Wizard cast Absorb-TP on me and drained 50 TP. DRK mobs just became slightly more annoying.

[Aeni]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

At any rate, the point about war/blu is to establish a means that war could effectively tank without abusing /nin.

I'll let you go on this point, only because you may have not been following the two other threads where I've been posting on this subject in particular. Let me reiterate what I've already said before:

Adding in new jobs do not fix in-game balance issues. Rather, it sterilizes every other job and makes them very homogenous to the point where it matters not what job you take in order to fill any particular role. This is also known as "hybridization."

FYI, most MMORPG developers are clear on one thing: they hate hybridization with a passion. There are volumes written on this subject, but I will not go indepth here as we're already moving off-topic. Heck. we're now talking about warrior stuff on a paladin forum. If I can make only one request, can a moderator break this off and move it into the appropriate forum?

Something with hate mitigation closer to a pld or nin but with the DD of a full-offense WAR. I can tell you that /mnk does not significantly increase your damage output. /nin will pretty much always do more for you, so I'm not sure what your point was when you said war/mnk for DD.

If you actually read what I posted and in that particular section, you will note that I said that in comparison, WAR/BLU does not output any more damage than a WAR/MNK or WAR/NIN. I forgot WAR/THF as well, with the burst damage that a WAR/BLU will not approach.

If War/blu works*, it would not only tank well and give a fresh outlook on how to play the WAR job, it would create a tank very unlike the existing tank options. It wouldn't play at all like War/whm, let alone Pld.

And I don't mind creating a new method of play based on Subjob. Although so many hate being slave to it, drk/thf is a good example. Or pld/war (dynamic, high hate tank even though they could have subbed mnk or rdm years ago for higher damage mitigation).

I normally do not have a problem. But for some reason, this is not sitting very well with me at the moment. It's almost as if someone has insulted me personally. Yes, it's weird and please, do not let that detract from the discussion at hand. I'm ready to admit that I'm wrong at any moment pending Armando's own testing.

However, I hope everyone has noted that BLU/WAR is already there on the table and you can actually draw some parallelism to this discussion.

Hmm, there are a few things wrong with this statement. First, you are forgetting to exclude that they become very capable tanks at 74+. WAR merit parties on every server can attest to this fact.

Thank you for pointing that out. I clearly forgot about the TP burn situation as well as the fact that most exp situation don't even require a tank.

Also, people have tanked HNMs such as Fafnir just fine with WAR, killing just as fast as you would with any other tank.

Are you talking pre-utsusemi nerf when Ni had been reduced enough to make it not a reliable tool for WARs tanking HNMs? I'm not sure what you are talking about, as I've yet to see any group bring down HNMs or King HNMs with a WAR main tanking. Off-tanking yes, I've watched a NIN/WAR and WAR/NIN duo tank Behemoth, but the main NIN never had any trouble during the whole fight so the WAR primarily just kept shadows up and focused on DD'ing.

Second, who said you need to only have 1 tank?

Who said that indeed? You're talking about something outside of experience points. Reading comprehension is your friend. {Please check it}

Also note there is a distinct difference between efficient and possible. I have never once said that it's impossible to tank (as a WAR) but that it's not efficient considering the numerous options you already have. You are talking novelty, which is entirely different from reality.





I won't reply to Karinya as it would take too long and also I noted that she is taking each and every point out of context and not taking the discussion that I posted as a whole.

I thought this was really funny since it was somehow saying to me that a WAR subless should be able to tank just fine, and a sj is only optional...>_>; Can a NIN or PLD tank without a subjob..? I highly doubt it...

Not to sound offensive, but english isn't your first language apparently. If you actually read the post rather than skim at it, you will see that I'm talking about strengthening the main job class first and then let the subjobs fall in naturally. Looking at the class itself, the skills are not up to par with other job classes with regards to defense. If you didn't know that, then you should really do your own research before trolling the discussion.

Counterargument: BRDs are squishy. A BRD can generate lots of hate with a certain song, but is unable to tank, because the BRD is squishy. The BRD subs /NIN. Now, the BRD hardly gets hit. Did the sub job not remove the job's fundamental weakness?

Now, my thoughts on WAR tanking are (and I'm aware I'm preaching to the choir here)...WAR can tank. This is an undeniable, hard fact. WARs have tanked for years, and still do tank. It IS a fact that WAR/NIN has become extremely popular, and that the general concensus nowadays says that WAR is primarily a DD...but that doesn't change the fact that WAR can tank. The problem stems from the fact that, until now, PLD does it much better. WARs can achieve practically the same Defense levels (while reaching the same low levels of Attack as a PLD in the stat tradeoff), wear practically the same armor, and have access to Size 3 shields post-48, and probably have a high enough shield skill to reach the same shielding rates on IT mobs as PLDs. Both have access to powerful weapons and comparable WS. Up 'til that point, they're on even ground. But PLDs have 1) Flash, and 2) MP to Cure themselves with.

Woo ... wall of text. Dammit, but I can't split it w/o seeming to edit your posts. >.<

Your counterargument is bad and fails. I can also take that same logic and apply it to having a DRK sub WHM so he can heal himself. However, how does that apply to this discussion? Again, we're talking about an experience point situation, where you aim to do three things as a tank:

1. Provide a measure of security to the party and to do it convincingly.
2. Provide survivability to an encounter.
3. Ensure an efficiency that is satisfactory to all party members.

For the sake of clarity, let's assume at least two things. That the party level is between 50 and 70 and that this is a "pick-up" group consisting of 6 individual players who have very little in common other than trying to get as much exp out of the hunt.

Notice there's several differences you fail to mention between a WAR and PLD.

Shielding Skill Did you not note the huge two level difference in such an important defensive skill? No, you did notice that. But strangely enough, you did not bring this up in your counter argument.

Artifact Set A PLD's AF has been known to be the best set a PLD can get their hands on and is one of the main reasons for even completing the quest at all (outside of cosmetic/aesthetic needs)

Inherent Survivability Let's face it. Paladins were meant to tank. The fact that their 2hour grants them physical damage immunity as well as draw in massive amounts of enmity while it is active just about sums it all up. Add in the added survivability to wear heavy armor, excellent shielding skills and ability to cure themselves and their friends make this tough to beat.

What does a Warrior have outside of Provoke? If player X is taking a wallop, what can Warrior do to get a lot of hate back? Arguably, a NIN will also face a similar situation, but since they can negate damage far better than a main WAR can and the fact we're not discussing about them at the moment, let's leave them out of the picture. A Warrior will bleed HP profusely. A WHM or any other main healer will take on loads of enmity keeping the WAR's HP up to safe levels (read: avoiding the one-shot syndrome) Provoke is on a 30s timer so in the mean time, what does the WAR do? This is what I've witnessed in the past 20 times I've been seduced ( ) into an exp situation where the main tank was a WAR between levels 50 and 70 on two accounts. Without a proper offtank, mind you.




Now, let me make this clear. I am not saying it is impossible for a WAR to tank. However, you must note the limitations of a job class by their traits and abilities alone. Skills will also come into play and note that I've also addressed this.

Subjobs can only do so much. What people are saying is that by some twisted logic, practically anyone can tank if they have the proper subjob. Yes, you can most definitely and probably even solo well, but what I'm talking about is being able to do so without much effort at all. I'm not a fan of advocating something that requires too much time and effort for someone to replicate when they can just pickup the appropriate job class and do it naturally.

[Armando]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

Don't have time to write an elaborate post right now, so I'll go straight to the point:
1) If the WAR is going all-out DD, who will it lose hate to? Another DD? In that case, shouldn't he be able to get hate back relatively easy? Who's going to outdamage the WAR by such a wide margin that he won't be able to reclaim hate for an extended period of time?
2) Do you honestly believe a 50% Defense buff does NOTHING for a WAR's survivability?

[Celeal]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

I had solo tank in a few parties as WAR/MNK and WAR/NIN from level 40 to 47. To be honest, it sucks. However, I think the problem is NOT from the job itself. The real problem is the limit of 16 equipment slots and only 1 food effect is allowed (not counting juices).

On one hand, without DD gear, WAR-tank have trouble holding hate . On the other hand, without Tanking gear, WAR-tank have trouble to saty alive. The problem is, lvl 30+ WAR/MNK and pre-lvl 74 WAR/NIN cannot have both:

1. There is not enough gear slots for level 30+ WAR/MNK or pre-lvl 74 WAR/NIN for DD + Tank at once. It is either all out DD gear or all out Tank gear. Trying to equip half-asssed DD gear and half-assed Tank gear will fail (deal little damage and take a lot of damage).

2. There is no food that gives WAR to boost DD and Tank at the same time. It is either DD food or Tank food.

3. The combination of DD gear with Tank food or Tank gear with DD food does not work well. In exp. party, a damage dealer uses DD gear and DD food, a PLD use Tank gear and Tank food.

With the introduction of BLU from ToAU, I believe Cocoon can make WAR/BLU possible to tank in exp. party, even beyond level 30+:

1. 50% defense boost. It is better than any defensive/tank food in this game at this moment. Unlike most defensive/tank food, it has no DEF+ cap.

2. Low mp cost. Cocoon is a level 8 BLU spell, that only need 10 mp to cast, and last over 1 minute.

3. There are BLU spells that comes with VIT+ bonus when you "equip" it. Like Cocoon gives VIT +3, Wild Oat gives VIT +1, etc.

With WAR/BLU, it is possible to obtain 50% Def+ from Cocoon, VIT+ bonus from BLU's spells, and focus on DD from gear and food. At least on paper, it looks good to me~

[Slip]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

What does a Warrior have outside of Provoke? If player X is taking a wallop, what can Warrior do to get a lot of hate back?

What does a War have? Well, how about more +Emnity than a Paladin? (Check out the AF stats and see for yourself). How about more damage than a Paladin (check out any parser you wish - Axe or G Axe both whoop Sword outside of odd cases like Ridill and such). How about Warcry? How about Berserk? How about Defender. And since we're talking War/Blu how about all of the /Blu spells the War will be spamming which will each benefit from the higher +Emnity they have? Cocoon itself, should act as a nice aggro boost - hell I was duoing Smn this weekend and Carby was losing hate to my whm partner just for Protect 1 being cast - at +50% Def Cocoon should have a truckload more hate than Prot1.

Arguably, a NIN will also face a similar situation, but since they can negate damage far better than a main WAR can and the fact we're not discussing about them at the moment, let's leave them out of the picture. A Warrior will bleed HP profusely. A WHM or any other main healer will take on loads of enmity keeping the WAR's HP up to safe levels (read: avoiding the one-shot syndrome) Provoke is on a 30s timer so in the mean time, what does the WAR do? This is what I've witnessed in the past 20 times I've been seduced ( ) into an exp situation where the main tank was a WAR between levels 50 and 70 on two accounts. Without a proper offtank, mind you.

War's will bleed hp profusely? Really, so you've seen one tanking with Cocoon and Defender up? Or you're pulling that "fact" out of experiences you've had that may be entirely different from that matter under discussion?

And you would have all discussion and testing of the idea dropped because of this "experience"? I doubt that's what you mean but that's about the only way I can interpret what you've written.

My point is is you Do Not Know that War/Blu, or Pld/Blu won't work. Writing as though it's an already proven conclusion that it can't work is useless at best and actively harmful at worst.

A useful this to do would be to question any issues you see, that would help refine the testing more so that we can see whether those challenges can be overcome or not. "How will you hold hate" is a useful question. "War's can't hold hate" is a useless and inaccurate statement. See the difference?