PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

[Celeal]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

For MP usage, could V. Cloak (has Refresh effect) take care of this problem for PLD/BLU? I know V. Cloak is expensive (T_T)... but with Cocoon, Defense should not be a problem?

[Armando]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

That's a tough one to answer. In theory, the Refresh effect would allow me to 1) use more expensive spells or 2) cast more spells, but I'd be losing out on the +2 enmity from a coronet, and the 12.5 Attack/Acc and 5 STR/DEX from Haubergeon (I mean, if I had it.) It wouldn't be a bad choice, but I'd be more inclined towards a Haubergeon. It's got less strings attached and is just an overall more solid/multipurpose piece of equipment if you ask me. Plus, it'd help out with Vorpal Blade. I was hitting some pretty nice Vorpal Blades on those spiders, I think I almost broke 400 on one of them

[Slip]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

Once you get a chance to try it in a party setup I'll be curious to here how mp-draining Pld/Blu turns out to be. Pld/Rdm sounded neat because the spells were cheap enough that stacking a lot of refresh-like effects could cancel out the cost. It doesn't sound like that will be the case with Pld/Blu though it may also not be too horrible either. The real litmus test will be can you hold out till the end of chain 5 while holding hate the whole way.

[Armando]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

Actually, I think the MP drain isn't that bad, but just like PLD/RDM I really don't see this job combo taking off at all without Refresh. I made a critical error in my earlier calculations on the simplest of things - I added the MP costs wrong. A Bludgeon + Headbutt cycle costs 28 MP, not 38. I'll edit the earlier post.

When Hasted, I can do the cycle every 10 seconds. I get back 16 MP per 10 secs. Although, in ToAU areas, I'm very likely to have Sanction Refresh more often than not (since my MP will be slowly but constantly depleting), which'll get me 20 MP back per 10 secs. An 8 MP loss every 10 secs isn't that bad. In any case, if I'm running low on MP, I can drop Head Butt and stick to Bludgeon. I should still be able to do decent damage while slowly gaining MP.

In that same example with the Aht Urhgan Attercop, my average Bludgeon damage was 58.21. Bludgeon's recast is 11.75 secs, and costs 16 MP. I'd do 8.67 * (11.75 - 0.5) = 97.54 melee damage in those 11.75 secs. The total is 155.75 damage every 11.75 secs at a cost of 16 MP. That's still a 52.89% damage increase when compared to just meleeing (155.75/101.87 = 1.5289.) I'd be expending 16 MP every 11.75 secs, but with Auto Refresh + Refresh I'd get back 18.8 in that same ammount of time, and with Sanction Refresh, 23.5. Realistically speaking though, I'd have Haste, dropping down Bludgeon's recast to 9.98 secs; that's still a break-even 16 MP without Sanction Refresh and 20 MP with Sanction Refresh, though. I'd also be throwing out Flashes every 37 secs, but that pays for itself. If I play more conservatively (Bludgeon only,) the only drain would be Cures, which may not be that much of a drain either if I can hold hate well enough through damage. Since Bludgeon is more efficient (more damage per MP), I could be aggressive when my MP is high, and then stick to Bludgeon as my MP starts to go under 50%. That should give me a good balance, I think.

Speaking of efficiency, if Bludgeon + Headbutt results in an average of 85 damage for 28 MP, that's 3.04 damage/MP. And if Bludgeon alone does an average of 58.21 damage for 16 MP, that's 3.64 damage/MP. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that make it just as efficient as BLM nuking if we ignore the time factor?

[Raydeus]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

Actually, I think the MP drain isn't that bad, but just like PLD/RDM I really don't see this job combo taking off at all without Refresh.

How about Spirit Taker, did it help at all?

Although using an Earth Staff would kill your melee damage, or you could use a pole with better damage but at the cost of taking more damage yourself.

[Icemage]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

I don't think staff isn't an option for this build.

- For PLDs, Staff is less accurate than Sword.
- Staff is much slower than Sword, which means fewer chances to take advantage of Enmity+.
- Staff damage is about the same as 1H swords per hit, maybe slightly better at higher levels, but the damage per second is also lower.
- Losing a shield means fewer opportunities to block additional damage, unless you're using Earth/Terra Staff at 51+ (and even then is only comparable to a shield as far as overall damage reduction, if that).

Spirit Taker only really is useful in XP parties when fighting things that are weak to blunt damage, like Skeletons or Pots. Otherwise the damage is low, the MP return is equal to the damage, and it's not a particularly accurate WS to begin with.


Icemage

[Armando]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

I'm still a couple of levels too low to use Spirit Taker. If I were to try, though, I definetely wouldn't use an Earth Staff. That would totally kill my melee damage. I'd try to get the highest DMG/sec pole I could find. Still, I don't think it'd be worth dropping my melee DoT, increasing my damage taken, and missing out on Shield Mastery. If my blue spells did more damage, then I could justify trying to maximize the MP I get (Spirit Taker/Vermillion Cloak). Another reason is that doing less damage and taking more damage at the same time certainly won't help with holding hate.

Edit: Icemage beat me to it, lol.

[Celeal]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

I don't think you would need both Spirit Taker and Vermillion Cloak. I had party with some BLU that uses Vermillion Cloak, and they did fine in terms of mp recovery.

If WS was used at the end of battle, maybe using a Dark Staff after the battle is enough.

P.S.
I am thinking about WAR/BLU tanking at end game using Rune Chopper, and have a reason to demand Refresh from RDM ...

[Lmnop]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

As of Spirit Taker, you could use a high damage staff like you detailed for chain #1. In other words, you do your first chain entirely, you use chain #1 with staff because you have lots of time for the chain. Fire off one Spirit Taker (pray it hits) and have plenty of mp for the rest of the chain.

I say Chain #1 and not #0 because more often than not, you're actually going for the small chance of chain #6 and thus, you're still trying to kill as quick as possible. When you inevitably fail, you can swap to staff for the new chain.

I guess this isn't really the place for it but... Haubergeon seems like it'd significantly kill the advantage of Flash x.x (I really like the idea of it for damage mitigation instead of hate only. It's another perk of of AGI+ layouts for taking advantage of shield block).

[Releena]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

Practically all non-AoE physical blue spells will delay your autoattack timer for only 0.5 second. This "lock period" as you call it is purely due to the animation. The animation could last half an hour if SE decided it so, and you'd be unable to move for that entire half hour, but you would continue to autoattack and be able to use other spells and JAs after the spell's 0.5 second casting time is done. Taking that into consideration, you'd need to cast about 19 spells to detract one full Great Axe swing's worth of time from your autoattacking. I'm pretty sure those 19 spells would add up to more than one Great Axe swing's worth of damage.

You're saying that there is no stoppage at all, and you only lose 0.5 seconds from the casting time. However, there is a lock period where your cast bar is gone, there is only animation, and there is still some time where you are unable to cast spells. This is incredibly obvious if you're a RDM and you use Chainspell as it is impossible to cast 60 or even 30 spells during those 60 seconds. Hours of BLU soloing confirms a pause in autoattack for me, and I see the same pause when casting Utsusemi Ni on other jobs.

Joyeuse can't really be compared to Bludgeon because you can do over 100 total damage in 2A which gives the mob somewhere near half the TP of Bludgeon as well as giving you 1/10 of the TP needed to WS.

[Armando]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

You're saying that there is no stoppage at all, and you only lose 0.5 seconds from the casting time. However, there is a lock period where your cast bar is gone, there is only animation, and there is still some time where you are unable to cast spells. This is incredibly obvious if you're a RDM and you use Chainspell as it is impossible to cast 60 or even 30 spells during those 60 seconds. Hours of BLU soloing confirms a pause in autoattack for me, and I see the same pause when casting Utsusemi Ni on other jobs.

Yes, there is certainly an ammount of time after a spell's completion during which you can't use another spell, JA, WS, or item. I've measured this time to be somewhere between 2 and 3 seconds. However, this ammount of time is fixed for all spells, is independent from the spell's animation, and does NOT stop your Autoattack timer. Bludgeon's animation takes over 3 seconds - I can (and have) hit the mob with a melee attack during the Bludgeon animation, and started casting spells before the animation is over. Try it yourself - figure out your weapon's delay in seconds (Delay/60 * (1 - Haste%)), start autoattacking something, and after you hit the mob, start counting until there's less than a second left for your next attack. Cast Bludgeon. Your melee attack will come up during Bludgeon's animation. Now, cast Bludgeon again. From the second the spell started casting, count 3 seconds, and on the third, cast something else.

Again, the animations have nothing to do with it. You can skip a spell's animation by changing visible equipment right before the spell is cast; you will notice the damage show up on the chat log the instant the spell finishes casting, and your character will be back to its neutral animation even though you still can't cast spells. If you skip the animation, you can also start running as soon as the spell is complete, and won't be locked down for those few seconds. More proof is in WS. One of SAM's most challenging methods of self-skillchaining involves using your WS right before your next autoattack, so that they can get an extra hit in (for TP) DURING their WS animation (and WS do give some post-use delay.) Another method of testing can be items with long post-usage delay. Engage a mob, use a Signal Pearl or Empress Band, and quickly go to your JA or Spell menu and keep trying to use it. You'll notice that you'll get in an autoattack before the game will allow you to perform another action.

Moreover, if autoattacking truly did stop during those 2-3 seconds you can't perform actions or throughout the spell's entire animation (you seem to think they're equivalent,) then I'd never be able to achieve so much melee damage, since each Bludgeon + Head Butt cycle would be subtracting about 6 seconds of autoattacking time out of every 11.75 seconds. My meleeing time would be cut in half, and I'd probably end up doing more magic damage than melee damage as a result. My TP gain would be much slower. NINs would have much lower damage output as well, since they're constantly casting Utsusemi.

Trust me on this. As a player who is obsessed with formulas, game mechanics, and optimal performance, those issues had been bothering me a lot. I've tested them over and over until I could reach a conclusive answer. See for yourself; this game is often deceiving. Hell, the game waits until a spell's animation is over to show its effects on the chat log, for Christ's sake (i.e. it always shows the effect a few seconds later than they actually happened, unless you skip the animation entirely.)

Joyeuse can't really be compared to Bludgeon because you can do over 100 total damage in 2A which gives the mob somewhere near half the TP of Bludgeon as well as giving you 1/10 of the TP needed to WS.

But a WAR/NIN with Joyeuse will give the mob 10 TP per hit as well, and if you have 2 or 3 WAR/NINs in the same manaburn party...

I don't think you would need both Spirit Taker and Vermillion Cloak. I had party with some BLU that uses Vermillion Cloak, and they did fine in terms of mp recovery.

If WS was used at the end of battle, maybe using a Dark Staff after the battle is enough.

Very good point. Although, as for WS, if I were tanking and the mob is dying, I'd probably save it and open the next fight with it. The more hate I can secure right off the bat, the better.

P.S.
I am thinking about WAR/BLU tanking at end game using Rune Chopper, and have a reason to demand Refresh from RDM ...

Hah, that'd be awesome, although the drain from the Rune Chopper would probably keep you from casting other spells, since your MP regen rate would be so low ; ;

As of Spirit Taker, you could use a high damage staff like you detailed for chain #1. In other words, you do your first chain entirely, you use chain #1 with staff because you have lots of time for the chain. Fire off one Spirit Taker (pray it hits) and have plenty of mp for the rest of the chain.

I say Chain #1 and not #0 because more often than not, you're actually going for the small chance of chain #6 and thus, you're still trying to kill as quick as possible. When you inevitably fail, you can swap to staff for the new chain.

Another perfectly good point. I got so hung up on the fact that I don't like losing all that from swapping to staves that I forgot I don't have to keep the staff equipped at all times...even just a 100-200 damage Spirit Taker could really keep one going.

I guess this isn't really the place for it but... Haubergeon seems like it'd significantly kill the advantage of Flash x.x (I really like the idea of it for damage mitigation instead of hate only. It's another perk of of AGI+ layouts for taking advantage of shield block).

And you'd be right. That's why I'd swap out the Haubie and Woodsman right before casting Flash, and at the same time take advantage of the fact that I'm swapping out to throw in my AF Body and add a bit more enmity to it ;3 (and then switch AF body for Jaridah Peti and get back some Acc and Attack in the meantime.)

EDIT: Oh, yeah, all spells have casting bars longer than their casting time. For really slow spells like Raise, you can actually start casting another spell before the casting bar is gone.

[Celeal]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

I have another question.... do you gain TP from BLU's physical attack spell? Or how much TP is gained for each BLU's physical attack spell?

To be honest, when I play BLU/WHM in Dunes I did not play attention to TP anyway, because I rest for mp after each battle... which translated to WS once in a blue moon (+_+)

If TP return from BLU's physical attack spell is low or zero, I would rather let my sword to deal damage, and reserve BLU's spell for effects, like Head Butt to stun, Cocoon for Def+, etc.

For WAR/BLU tanking at end game using Rune Chopper, I would push for full Haste build, let the G.Axe do the DD, and the limited mp pool for Cocoon and Head Butt only.

As for swapping Hauby for Flash, it can be annoying to "blink" in and out when your mage is trying to cast spell you. Imagine swap hauby in and out for every 37 seconds (if Hasted), it is a good way to kill your keyboard ( *joke* XD ).

[Zamphire]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

No TP gained from blu spells

[Celeal]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

If no TP gained from BLU spells... well, I guess TP and MP do not mix well in this game after all.

Is it also true that each melee attack gives mob 3 TP, each spell gives mob 10 TP in general?

I have a feeling that WAR/BLU may work much better that PLD/BLU... if the WAR/BLU can push his damage taken around 30 ~ 60 per hit at level 60. I don't know... maybe size 1 shield + axe + Cocoon + capped shield skill + some WAR AF can do that.

[Armando]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

If no TP gained from BLU spells... well, I guess TP and MP do not mix well in this game after all.

If BLU spells gave any visually observable ammount of TP, they'd be broken. Example: Bastard Sword +1 gives me 6.8 TP per swing (4.3 secs between swings.) That's 1.58 TP/sec. Almost any physical blue spell I cast will detract 0.5 secs from my meleeing. In other words, I lose a theoretical 0.79 TP. If a physical blue spell gave that much, I wouldn't lose TP from pausing my autoattack timer (due to casting the spell) at all, and if it gave any ammount more than that, it'd be a direct increase to my TP gain. Moreover, Bludgeon would give three times as much TP for the same ammount of casting time, further increasing my TP gain. So, not only would spamming blue magic be a direct increase to damage output, but to TP as well. Even so, I wouldn't consider TP and MP that incompatible - we just need 4+ MP/tick Refreshes to keep the MP strain at a minimum.

Is it also true that each melee attack gives mob 3 TP, each spell gives mob 10 TP in general?

Melee attacks give the mob the attacker's TP gain (pre-Store TP) + 3. Spells that land for more than 0 damage (causing DoT upon landing does not count as landing for damage) will give the mob 10 TP per hit. Physical Blue spells follow this rule, and will give 10 TP per hit. Subtle Blow affects both melee and magic. Finally, when a mob hits you, it gains TP based on its Delay, just like players. Most mobs have 240 Delay (4 secs of delay, 6.4 TP per hit.)

I have a feeling that WAR/BLU may work much better that PLD/BLU... if the WAR/BLU can push his damage taken around 30 ~ 60 per hit at level 60. I don't know... maybe size 1 shield + axe + Cocoon + capped shield skill + some WAR AF can do that.

WAR/BLU would hold hate better, would have to cast less, (limited MP pool means that as long as he's not gaining MP over time, he/she'll have to stop casting at one point or lower MP consumption to match MP regen rate,) but would have more meleeing power to fall back on. WAR/BLU could also increase the power of his spells and melee (as well as the rest of the party's damage) via Armor Break if using a Great Axe. PLD/BLU would still have an edge on damage reduction (Flash, Size 3 shield.) Also, Size 1 shields are horrible, if a WAR/BLU were to go Axe + Shield he'd better be using at least a Size 2, and if he's higher than 48, he better be using Hard Shield or the new Size 3 IS shield.