The Gluttony sword

[Armando]

Re: The Gluttony sword

About the swords: leave it to Armando to find how miniscule a gain Gluttony would have over TM Espy. At any rate, I was mainly just thinking about the concept of as heavy a hitter a sword you could get paired with the highest possible shield block rate. Basically, if your damage output is normally something like 80% DoT/ 20% WS, with a layout like this it'd shift to something closer to 70/30. But still achieving an effective defense. At any rate, Gluttony would need another couple base damage before it would seem plausible that it could equal damage of a Bastard Sword, and even then, Armando would probably prove me wrong.

Nah, there's not much to prove wrong. That's basically it, it needs a few more DMG to be able to keep up. To be exact, it needs to be 48 DMG to have equal DMG/sec as NQ Bastard Sword, and about 51 for HQ Bastard Sword. While we're on the subject of different playing styles and the way you distribute your damage...when changing to a weapon with higher DMG and lower DMG/sec, and thus shifting the weight of your damage output more towards WS, it becomes even more important to WS at 100 TP as often as you can. After all, damage usually scales slower than TP (i.e. a WS at 200 TP will usually do less than twice the damage it does at 100 TP). If you're touchy about your damage, I wouldn't use a Gluttony Sword in a situation where you might be waiting on someone else to Skillchain. That wasted TP is going to bite you in the ass. Weapons with higher DMG/sec don't suffer as much less a smaller portion of their total damage comes from WS.

From my test, I also notice that the additional shield skill +10 from Master Shield does not affect the proc-rate.
/em runs to AH and sells the Master Shield ... (>.<*)

So, here's another question, as a PLD should one really go out of the way to get equipment that has + shield skill? I always just stuck with AGI boosts as a good way to have Shield blocks proc. and you should usually stick with the larger shields due to the advantage of added DEF. But, I could be totally off base.

Currently, my theory is that in the last patch, S-E set the bar for the shielding cap low enough that a PLD will hit with simply capped skill and AF boots on anything he/she'd EXP on. +Skill would only benefit you against HNMs, or if you're a non-PLD job. Of course, I could be wrong, since so far we have no tests vs IT mobs - I'm just basing this on the fact that shielding rates appear to be capped vs T mobs, or at least that +Skill doesn't help against T mobs.
You should stick to the larger shield regardless of Defense, though. For example, early on I always see people in Decurion's Shields and Bastokan Targes. Yes, it has more Defense than a Mahogany Shield, but 2 or 3 Defense won't make enough of a difference to make up for the fact that you'll only reduce damage by about ~10% overall with a Size 1 shield, as opposed to ~15% with a Size 2. Even if Master Shield had, say, 20 Defense, it'd still perform worse than an R.K. Shield (14 Def.)

By the way, my BLU is 29. Just one more level and it's technically capped as a sub for my 60 PLD. Except a few damage tests and Head Butt proc rate tests in the near future ;3

[Celeal]

Re: The Gluttony sword

For comparing DoT generated by Gluttony Sword with other swords, in my opinion, base damage from the sword of alone is not enough to determine which sword is more practical or "better".

If the PLD has very poor accuracy against the exp mob, regardless of what base damage of sword the PLD has, he will miss the mob most of time. Missing the hit with a Gluttony Sword is the same as mssing the hit with a other sword: no damage, no TP gain.

Let stay the PLD land a hit on the mob. If the PLD is using a Gluttony Sword, the potential damage from the hit is range from 0 dmg to its critical hit. Same can apply to other sword: The potential damage from the hit is range from 0 dmg to its critical hit <insert the formula here>. PLD's base STR and Attack, and mob's base VIT and Defence have a huge influence in here.

If we try to take the advantage of the high DPS swords (high base damage and low delay), in my opinion, the 1st priority is accuracy, the 2nd priority is STR and Attack. If we are comparing a 44 base dmg sword to a 10 dmg sword, then I have nothing to say. If we are comparing a couple points of base dmg or a few base delay, first take care of base accuracy, STR and Attack, then we start to examine DPS.

If we examine TP gain from a traditional PLD/WAR tank, a significant portion is generated by taking hits from the mob. And also, a sword with higher delay would gain more TP per hit. If the PLD received Haste from whm or rdm, the impact of sword's delay is even lower.

The Gluttony Sword is valuable to PLD. It is because whenever the mob hits the PLD, the VIT bonus from Gluttony Sword applies. At level 57, there is no other gear for PLD that has VIT +7 in a single slot. The Gluttony Sword gives PLD freedom to free VIT+ gear from other slots, for other bonus (ACC+, STR+, ATK+....).
Even if the PLD wants to go for higher DoT setup, Gluttony Sword is still a "good option" between certain levels: good base damage, high VIT+ to cover other gear slots for ACC+, STR+, ATK+.

If the PLD has too much total VIT+ gear, to a point where the bonus of Gluttony Sword has no impact, it is not sword's problem.

[dirtyclown]

Re: The Gluttony sword

What exactly would be the ideal range of bonus vit? I've always thought the "ideal" amount would be about half of the character's base vit. For example, if it's 60 base then +30 would be the "optimal" amount of extra vit. I haven't had the opportunity to test it out with more vit on top of that, but with +30 my damage taken was relatively lower than previously. I have yet to notice a very significant change to my damage taken though. I'm assuming that it's based on a curve just like accuracy, right?

[Karinya]

Re: The Gluttony sword

Well, it depends on what you're tanking, but I'm not sure that a VIT cap is even reachable on exp mobs. You have to have VIT quite a bit higher than attacker's STR and when the attacker is 8 levels higher than you, that's a tall order.

But then, I leveled up old school, before TAU easymode. In the high 50s - low 60s I was tanking Teriggan pugils and then Valley of Sorrows raptors and big birds; hits from those things were no joke (and probably still are, which is why those areas are deserted now). Reducing your damage taken actually reduced downtime (remember when downtime existed?) and improved your party's exp - more than the improvement you would have gotten by trying to do more damage as a PLD.

Gluttony used to be useful in its level range, but back then it didn't have to compete with Dragvandil, TM Esp+1/+2 and a bunch of other stuff that didn't exist. And mob targets were different - if it wasn't high attack it was high defense, and PLD is not doing decent damage to an exp crab or crawler no matter what sword they use, so there was no reason to choose a sword for its damage potential. Softer, lower level targets and healers with basically infinite MP change the whole landscape. So it's possible that gluttony is good for a playstyle that nobody uses anymore.

Bottom line: if conserving your healer's MP doesn't matter, then taking less damage doesn't matter as long as you keep hate, so feel free to shift to a more DD-oriented approach (and a faster sword will probably be one of the first things you change). But if you want a pure tank setup, don't underrate 7 VIT.

[Raydeus]

Re: The Gluttony sword

Back in my Gluttony sword days I tanked using it with a life belt (to make sure I hit often) and it really worked for me, dmg was nice while I got Espadon +1, and I never had hate troubles.


But then again I'm not a DD PLD so my priority list goes pretty much like this:

+Emnity > +DEF / +VIT > +ACC


Like Davitron said, it really depends on your tanking style, right now I'm using a Durandal (DMG 40, VIT+7 Emnity +1) and I'm very happy with it.

[Davitron3000]

Re: The Gluttony sword

Back in my Gluttony sword days I tanked using it with a life belt (to make sure I hit often) and it really worked for me, dmg was nice while I got Espadon +1, and I never had hate troubles.
But then again I'm not a DD PLD so my priority list goes pretty much like this:
+Emnity > +DEF / +VIT > +ACC
Like Davitron said, it really depends on your tanking style, right now I'm using a Durandal (DMG 40, VIT+7 Emnity +1) and I'm very happy with it.

I used to use Durandal, but I finally got rid of it and bought a Macuahuitl +1. I avoided this sword because I think it is really ugly (looks like a spiked beaver tail), but now that I have it, I will not carry anything else in a big fight because the + enmity is just too much to pass up. If I need damage I use a Company Sword.

[Armando]

Re: The Gluttony sword

The Gluttony Sword is valuable to PLD. It is because whenever the mob hits the PLD, the VIT bonus from Gluttony Sword applies. At level 57, there is no other gear for PLD that has VIT +7 in a single slot. The Gluttony Sword gives PLD freedom to free VIT+ gear from other slots, for other bonus (ACC+, STR+, ATK+....).
Even if the PLD wants to go for higher DoT setup, Gluttony Sword is still a "good option" between certain levels: good base damage, high VIT+ to cover other gear slots for ACC+, STR+, ATK+.

If the PLD has too much total VIT+ gear, to a point where the bonus of Gluttony Sword has no impact, it is not sword's problem.

Kinda repeating myself, but I have to disagree on a few things For one thing, Haste affects weapons of all Delays evenly, so the weapon's speed will never matter for that. The other thing is that while it may free up slots that would otherwise be tied down by VIT, you take such a big hit in DoT by using Gluttony over the higher DMG/sec swords that whatever slots you freed up (most likely your rings) won't be able to make up for the DoT you lost. In other words, Bastard Sword + VIT rings is more efficient than Gluttony Sword + STR rings, for example.

As for the ideal VIT and Defense levels, it's really hard to say. Mobs don't seem to use the same PDIF ranges as us (in fact, mobs seem to have a PDIF max of 4.0, at least when it comes to hitting other much lower level mobs.) However, I can say with certainty that Defense scales up really damned poorly once you start going into what the mob would consider High Defense. A few months back I was fooling around with a friend in Altepa Desert and picked a fight with what I think was a DC (or maybe T) Manticore. I decided to see what the difference was between no buffs, Defense food, and Defense Food + Defender. My min/max damage taken really didn't lower by a very appreciable ammount. I think they dropped by about 5 damage, which really sucks considering I had stacked +56% Defense.

Another big problem is that the way the damage formulas work, VIT technically becomes less efficient the more Defense you have. That is, if the mob's (average) PDIF is 2.0, lowering its fSTR by 1 will result in shaving off 2 damage per hit, but if its PDIF is 0.75 you'll be shaving off 0.75 damage per hit. Also, mobs seem to have disgustingly high DMG (which is why they hit for fair numbers even when your Defense is really high) so lowering their fSTR by one has a smaller impact on their total DMG.

Testing COULD be done on the impact of Defense and VIT on the enemy's damage, but unfortunately the game doesn't give away even the slightest hints on the mob's Attack, like it does for its Defense. All I know is that I've become highly disillusioned in the stat. I just make sure I have plenty of them and then start building more offensive stats.

[Celeal]

Re: The Gluttony sword

If the PLD has enough accuracy and attack, then Bastard Sword + VIT rings maybe more "efficient" than Gluttony Sword + STR rings. In practice, can PLD equip enough accuracy and attack while tanking in exp parties? It is arguable to use Gluttony Sword + 2x Sniper Rings too, if the impact of Def+ after lvl 60 is really diminished.

I am not trying to say which sword is better or worst. I am trying to ask: Is it practical? Or is the difference noticable?

If the damage output increased while the damage taken remains the same, then it is great. If the damage output increased while the damage taken is also increased, then we have to see how much the damage is actually increased, and how much damage taken is actually increased.

When I was leveling my WAR and SAM, I switch from +attack food to sushi at lvl 57. Even with sushi, I was still using 25+ acc to maintain a good hit-rate, then the rest of the slots use +STR and +Attack. Otherwise multi-hit WS like Rampage will suffer. For single-hit WS without using Sneak Attack, I would need a balance of STR+ and Attack+, and enough acc+ so that I don't miss the WS.

I am not saying VIT+ > all for PLD tank. My PLD usually uses +14 VIT in gear for exp parties at my level. I can add more VIT, but I don't really see the affect of more VIT. I fill up the rest of the gear slot with other bonus, base on situation.

But to ditch Gluttony sword before switching to Esp. +1 at lvl 66 (O.o)? I would really want to see a full description of gear/food combination, exp mob and location, party setup, before I would say other swords is better.

[Lmnop]

Re: The Gluttony sword

The other thing is that while it may free up slots that would otherwise be tied down by VIT, you take such a big hit in DoT by using Gluttony over the higher DMG/sec swords that whatever slots you freed up (most likely your rings) won't be able to make up for the DoT you lost. In other words, Bastard Sword + VIT rings is more efficient than Gluttony Sword + STR rings, for example.

This would be true, if the only 2 stats you cared about were Damage increasing (Str/attack) and damage reducing (vit/defense). However, if you look at Celeal's case, you see an interesting balance where she (excuse me if you're actually a guy, I just see the female avatar) has so much Agi/skill+ that the +7 VIT is definately doing something. +14 VIT in gear when you could easily have over 30 (errr... I think).

I actually quite like Celeal's layout. I've seen things from 75 PLDs in merit parties (I believe csBahamut was talking about this on these forums at some point) about them using full DD gear set-ups but with some gear set aside for upping shielding rate (such as AF boots and maybe some items with AGI+ in addition to DD stats). Of course, that's much harder in the upper 50s and lower 60s when mobs consistently hit me for 3 digits in my best defense layout ( Warrior ; ; ) I would definately let her tank for me and be happy. For that layout, I can definately see Gluttony being good, though like someone else mentioned, I'd hate to have a Gluttony and no Lifebelt.

Re: Armando and his shield skill cap.

I can at least come close to cap on evasion against T mobs with D rank Warrior Evasion. My whm friend and I do some rather fun duoing with my evasion set on. My evasion rate is so good on T (and decent on VTs which I don't like unless I also have a defense macro set up) that I think it might actually make me avoid one hit/fight against ITs instead of 1 hit/7 fights. Still not worth it

So before I got to my point, I may have already proved myself wrong but let's see if I can remember what my point was anyway.... oh yes! I can cap on T pretty easily, but it still has very little effect on IT. Granted, Shield is A+ for PLD, but I still think capping on T cannot equal capped on IT. I'd think you'd need to devote at least 6 slots to shield skill/agi in order to consider capping on IT.

You would be the ideal candidate to test, Armando, but your exp party time is pretty much dominated by testing of funny SJs. :D The funny thing about you going gung-ho pld/rdm and testing pld/blu is that you were never that sort of person to do things just because the kids on KI told you you couldn't ("my story as a rdm/war" etc). Kinda just fell in your lap, did't it? I can just image you realizing how good Pld/Rdm is and saying "well shit, I guess this means I have to test it."

[DakAttack]

Re: The Gluttony sword

People should really be investing in Parry Earrings and Shield Earrings, as well as a Parry Torque and/or Shield Torque. Paladins can easily stack a lot of Vitality through their equipment and food, but in a party I've barely noticed any different between +30 Vit and +40. I'd say even around +20 Vit it's safe to start switching in some +Agi and +Shield, +Parry, and +Evasion if they feel the need. Parry is hard as hell to skill up, but it's definately better than shield blocking because you mitigate complete damage and can continue through casting.

[georgs]

Re: The Gluttony sword

Currently, my theory is that in the last patch, S-E set the bar for the shielding cap low enough that a PLD will hit with simply capped skill and AF boots on anything he/she'd EXP on. +Skill would only benefit you against HNMs, or if you're a non-PLD job. Of course, I could be wrong, since so far we have no tests vs IT mobs - I'm just basing this on the fact that shielding rates appear to be capped vs T mobs, or at least that +Skill doesn't help against T mobs.
You should stick to the larger shield regardless of Defense, though. For example, early on I always see people in Decurion's Shields and Bastokan Targes. Yes, it has more Defense than a Mahogany Shield, but 2 or 3 Defense won't make enough of a difference to make up for the fact that you'll only reduce damage by about ~10% overall with a Size 1 shield, as opposed to ~15% with a Size 2. Even if Master Shield had, say, 20 Defense, it'd still perform worse than an R.K. Shield (14 Def.)

By the way, my BLU is 29. Just one more level and it's technically capped as a sub for my 60 PLD. Except a few damage tests and Head Butt proc rate tests in the near future ;3

So in essense, or at least the impression that you're under is that the Shield skill and Shield + is like the Cure skill and MND, a soft cap that can go either way, it's just a matter of how your stats look and the equipment you have? If that's the case, I could understand searching for a shield that has a Shield + bonus, but not sacrificing def. for.

As for the BLU, I'd like to hear how that works out, it seems interesting, especially with how the skills you equip affect your stats. Drop a few notes about the PLD/BLU set up after you've given it a test drive.

[Karinya]

Re: The Gluttony sword

People should really be investing in Parry Earrings and Shield Earrings, as well as a Parry Torque and/or Shield Torque. Paladins can easily stack a lot of Vitality through their equipment and food, but in a party I've barely noticed any different between +30 Vit and +40. I'd say even around +20 Vit it's safe to start switching in some +Agi and +Shield, +Parry, and +Evasion if they feel the need. Parry is hard as hell to skill up, but it's definately better than shield blocking because you mitigate complete damage and can continue through casting.

The torques maybe, but the earrings are like 5 mil for 2 skill... forget that. Anyway, the torques are level 65, so kind of beyond the scope of a discussion on gluttony sword (unless you want to wear it all the way to Durandal).

One parry is better than one shield block (the shield block does give you TP, but so what), but two shield blocks are better than one parry. Shields proc much more at a given skill level.

But there aren't any swords that give +Shield skill, so why is it even entering into this discussion? At gluttony sword's level, it is the only sword that will (slightly) reduce the damage you take. It does less damage than some other swords. Whether this tradeoff is worthwhile depends on your party setup, choice of mobs etc. (and is also to some extent a subjective judgment).

[Celeal]

Re: The Gluttony sword

With current proc-rate of parrying, I only see it as a "bonus" while tanking. It is very nice when parry triggers, but I really cannot depend upon it.

For complete damage negation, I would depend on Flash + capped evasion skill, with some AGI+ gear. It is so reliable that, multi-hit special attack like Goblin Rush or Raptor's tripple attack can completely missed, when I cast Flash in ahead of time.

I am not saying to go crazy for evasion. Since evasion skill capped much faster that parrying skill in general, I would choice evasion first between those two.