Hard decision...

[Zamphire]

Re: Hard decision...

Sure, it's basic human nature, but it is this that skews game balance. My own opinion? NINs should never have been born in the first place and SE should just improve the WAR class to add in tanking options (As WAR/MNK)

I'll go for that. Good suggestion if you ask me. Too bad NIN is already here.

[Stooky]

Re: Hard decision...

To me its total matter of opinon. Pld and nin tank totaly different, one is the normal tanking style while the other blink tanks. What i dont like is how EVERY job will throw /nin on it at end game and find something ridiculous they can do with it. I do not like nins and i dont really consider them a TRUE tank since they were not origonaly created as one, but I really wish the moved utsu ni to 38 just to make all those /nin people not as powerful and nin be the only job to be able to use utsu ni. But yeah I think i just rambled.... sorry ~(~.~)~
Also, War should be a effective tank as well since well them and pld were orginal tanks but war died out as tank and could use a tune up o.o

[Reldin]

Re: Hard decision...

In my opinion SE just added the wrong skill to paladins...
Instead of Auto Refresh they should have added Provoke so Paladins could finally pick up the rolle as REAL tank again and don't relly on subbing WAR.
I mean c'mon they could have give them a skill that draws even more hate but what is auto refresh for I mean c'mon its not that useful for you as tank...

[Icemage]

Re: Hard decision...

I don't see shadows as breaking the game. I honestly see it as a help in many places, especially for soloing.

I agree that /NIN is great for soloing, but that in no way refutes the claim that it is too good and is a game breaking mechanic.

Lets take your god battles. Lets just say no more shadows. Lets fight Byakko. Ok, you're going to need at least 4 PLDs I say to take it straight up. At least one WHM per PLD, probably need more back up healing because they are going to take a beating. You're going to need at least one Refresh to refresh each party, so 2-3 dedicated refreshers. That's 11 people just to tank it. Leaving you with room for only 7 damage dealers. Probably more around 5 damage dealers because you're going to need another healer or two to keep all the melees and damage dealers alive form AOEs and stray spells.

4 PLDs on Byakko is totally overkill unless players suck at playing their jobs. I've done Byakko with as little as 2 PLDs and no NINs - and one of the PLDs was Tarutaru at that. It's a bit risky due to his annoying Triple Attacks sometimes dealing enormous damage, but with improvements to Shield skill and Phalanx II it's not as hard to PLD-tank him as you might think.

Meaning God battles are going to be alot harder. This might not nesessarily be a bad thing, but what's wrong with having all the melee sub nin so they take little to no damage, and throwing in a few more DD.You might could even have 1 NIN (with shadows) and 1 PLD dual tank it making more room for damage.
AS far as your beast analogy. Taking out shadows would change the dynamics of the game entirly. It'd be like taking the bullet out of the beast, and at the same time, giving him 3 hearts, gills, and some other stuff to completely rework his system.

I do agree that Utsusemi's mechanic is built very solidly into many otherwise balanced parts of the game, and making a drastic change to it will adversely affect those other elements. Doesn't mean it isn't broken; just that fixing it will break a great many other things.

As it stands now, there isn't a whole lot wrong with this game. One job isn't as good of a tank as the other job. Lets make that tank job better instead of changing the game entirely. Alot less trouble.
Taking shadows out of the game wont hurt one job, it's going to hurt almost everyone in the long run.

Personally, I think FFXI is too easy at end-game, with the exception of a handful of restricted battles. Utsusemi is at the core of much of this problem, but correcting it at this late date will have ripple effects all out of proportion.


Icemage

[raidenn]

Re: Hard decision...

Well they could have done that. Then paladins could just sub ninja and become a truly effective tank right? That will definitely throw the whole game off balance. Im just glad there are more choices than paladin for tanks these days. In the beginning after the beta, the paladin makes or breaks the party. There have been white mages who wouldnt join a party unless the tank is a paladin.

[ValisOfValefor]

Re: Hard decision...

In my opinion SE just added the wrong skill to paladins...
Instead of Auto Refresh they should have added Provoke so Paladins could finally pick up the rolle as REAL tank again and don't relly on subbing WAR.
I mean c'mon they could have give them a skill that draws even more hate but what is auto refresh for I mean c'mon its not that useful for you as tank...

Im sorry, but for us Elvaan and Gilka Paladins Auto Refresh is a gift from the gods themselves.

Im sorry but from my view point ninja has already screwn up the game enough and something has to be done about it. Not just give Paladin provoke and force them to sub it too.

[Maju]

Re: Hard decision...

Im sorry, but for us Elvaan and Gilka Paladins Auto Refresh is a gift from the gods themselves.
Im sorry but from my view point ninja has already screwn up the game enough and something has to be done about it. Not just give Paladin provoke and force them to sub it too.

I agree. If PLD had its own voke everyone would be running around as PLD/NIN and then we'd have a cookie cutter sub that partially overrides the main job. Now that would be silly game design. It would be like boosting BLM melee ability so much that they deal higher melee damage than magic damage against most mobs. BLMs would end up using their magic only against elementals and other similar enemy types.

Besides, auto-refresh together with the shield changes have allowed the paladins of today to gear themselves more offensively and significantly contribute to the party's damage output. It's a very useful trait.

[dirtyclown]

Re: Hard decision...

Actually, you'e dead wrong about my "Delicious Shadows." The only jobs I have high enough to take advantage of Ichi and Ni are BRD and WHM, and of course NIN at 40. BRD doesn't use /nin often, as with whm. So me loving my "Delicious Shadows" isn't the case here. If I'm biased at all, I'm biased towards PLD, with it being at 62.

I don't see shadows as breaking the game. I honestly see it as a help in many places, especially for soloing.

You like easy. That's understandable. You're missing my point though.

Lets take your god battles. Lets just say no more shadows. Lets fight Byakko. Ok, you're going to need at least 4 PLDs I say to take it straight up. At least one WHM per PLD, probably need more back up healing because they are going to take a beating. You're going to need at least one Refresh to refresh each party, so 2-3 dedicated refreshers. That's 11 people just to tank it. Leaving you with room for only 7 damage dealers. Probably more around 5 damage dealers because you're going to need another healer or two to keep all the melees and damage dealers alive form AOEs and stray spells. Meaning God battles are going to be alot harder. This might not nesessarily be a bad thing, but what's wrong with having all the melee sub nin so they take little to no damage, and throwing in a few more DD.You might could even have 1 NIN (with shadows) and 1 PLD dual tank it making more room for damage.

Do I get access to all of those neat new merit abilities? If so, I'd be all over it. Triple attack isn't so horrible, people just act like it because they're used to damage being completely negated. I'll most likely duo tank this with another Paladin when the time comes. When it does, I'll be sure to post the video and send you in particular lots of .

AS far as your beast analogy. Taking out shadows would change the dynamics of the game entirly. It'd be like taking the bullet out of the beast, and at the same time, giving him 3 hearts, gills, and some other stuff to completely rework his system.

Getting rid of Utsusemi would kill the game. Period. I've been saying that, there's nothing we can do about what's already happened. It is possible for SE to rework the system though, like you said.

As it stands now, there isn't a whole lot wrong with this game. One job isn't as good of a tank as the other job. Lets make that tank job better instead of changing the game entirely

Let's power up job X because job Z is better? Game balance is an issue that needs to be considered, and wasn't even bothered with when SE tried playing both hands and introduced tanking gear for Ninjas. Then they say they want Paladins to be the better tanks, so they give us a recycled Job Trait, a Trait that improves our TP gain (lol guys, srsly) and then they rework the shield system. They're fixing what isn't broken, and giving us a half assed apology "sorry guys, we didn't mean to try and cater to the majority because it gives us more money at the end of each month. here, have a cookie." Thanks for that slap in the face, SE. Much appreciated.

[Davitron3000]

Re: Hard decision...

Triple attack isn't so horrible, people just act like it because they're used to damage being completely negated. I'll most likely duo tank this with another Paladin when the time comes. When it does, I'll be sure to post the video and send you in particular lots of .

My LS usually uses 2 Paladin on all the sky gods. (we kite Kirin with Paladin that have Crimson Legs, Ninjas, and War/nin. Paladin handle the summons)
I have done Byakko numerous times, duo tanking with another Paladin. We usually have an alliance + at Gods and at least one back up tank. (it really depends on who shows up)

I know some people say that Sky is so easy, but I have a lot of fun doing it.
2 Paladins tanking Byakko Movie if you care to download a big file - http://files.filefront.com/CTBvsByak.../fileinfo.html

Note: this was made before I thought I could tank with sword and shield against HNM and before the shield updates. My poor Earth staff has been neglected as of late

[Raydeus]

Re: Hard decision...

Hmm... after all this time I still think all PLD needs to be on par with NIN is a change so VIT/DEF stats play a more decisive role in damage taken.

[Aeni]

Re: Hard decision...

I know some people say that Sky is so easy, but I have a lot of fun doing it.
2 Paladins tanking Byakko Movie if you care to download a big file - http://files.filefront.com/CTBvsByakkowmv/;4738510;;/fileinfo.html

I know what you mean. Yes, Sky is looked down upon as a "newb end game event." You know what? When it was the first REAL end game event, everyone bitched about how difficult it was.

NO ONE complained about how the fight went because the Paladin was at fault. Just that people despaired because they didn't get their way all the time.

When a strat finally was developed and enough players had skills to play their job classes in a way that brought forth pride in their individual roles, the Gods went down without second thoughts.

Compare this to EVERY SINGLE new content SE has placed since then. Dynamis. Limbus. Sea. KS99.

I personally feel that Sky can still be difficult given circumstances and situations where players start to get careless. Heck, I remembered my first time up there being afraid, despite the assurances that the LS leader gave with saying that 40% of those attending that first "big" run were vets.

We wiped on Zip.

Goes to show that there's a big difference between cautiously optimistic and arrogance.

I only see arrogance when NIN vs. PLD threads crop up. I hope to god enough of these arrogant players leave the game, but alas, they constitute the majority of the reasons why SE needs to keep adding perversely difficult content just to keep these people as paying customers.

-----------------------

And then on the flip-side. To go back to Zamp's response about fixing WAR. I had been thinking about this, in the "what if" scenario. I do know that the 3 RoZ classes were added, not from necessity, but they were born from nostalgia. I still stand by my opinion that they should never have been added, as to achieve game balance now would be the equivalent of sterilizing EVERY SINGLE job class in this game.

Warriors are suppose to be masters at weaponry. Hence their abilities to receive skills from so many different weapons. In order to have preserved game balance from a tanking perspective (And to not inadvertantly add a crucial ability to be "abused" by every other non-tanking job class) SE should've beefed up the Warrior.

Simply put, increasing a WAR's potential in these skill areas makes the most sense then introducing several new job classes just to accomplish one singular goal (tanking)

Improved Parrying An A to A+ skill would have just been what the doctor ordered. As it stands now, the only classes that have this skill at a respectable level are both SAMs and NINs (Warriors get a wtflololol C-). If these classes were nullified, then the skill should've gone to Warriors (See, game balance is a horrible tragedy once you expand the number of classes from "just right" into wtforznovelty)

This then can tie closely with an introduction to a change to the job class system.

Each job subbed will bring a meaningful set of skills for the main job it is attached to directly. That means, you can now wield a great sword as a BLM if you're subbing DRK, only with a totally gimped skill to go with it. However, this can play a vital role in game balancing.

Let me use the Warrior for example. If he subs Monk, he immediately gains these skills:

-Guarding. Now, he can get skills in it as well as the natural proccing, albeit on a toned down level.

-Ditto for countering procs. It is increased because Monk is subbed.

What do you get with some of these changes? You get a Warrior tank that can nullify physical damage through avoidance. Sure, he won't mitigate it completely like a NIN can already, but then if you were able to do so, you'd be breaking the game balance. This will allow Warriors to be able to go into defense posture and backup tank or perform in exp parties and not being "gimped."

I'm not a big fan of "total damage mitigation." It's like playing a WOW tank only with 5 more shielding abilities and each shield lasting 5 seconds more when fully specced.

[Raitox]

Re: Hard decision...

I would like to see Utsusemi: Ichi have a 30% chance of shadows failing to activate, and Utsusemi: Ni have a 20% chance of shadows failing to activate.

[Maju]

Re: Hard decision...

I would like to see Utsusemi: Ichi have a 30% chance of shadows failing to activate, and Utsusemi: Ni have a 20% chance of shadows failing to activate.

Or scrap Utsusemi entirely and give NIN a JA similar to Defender that gives a fixed evasion rate boost of 40% or something. So if the NIN has an evasion rate of 15% against a certain mob, activating the JA would boost it to 55%. Using the JA would then bring penalties to offense. Perhaps a lowered attack speed or a lowered atk stat.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Hard decision...

I'm pretty sure they lose hate while casting it, not while it's up. I think it works the opposite way a spell normally would. I think of it as a line graph, making spikes when you cast spells, use JAs, etc. From what I've read and seen for myself, a spell makes 2 spikes. The initial cast, and the effect it has on it's target. I believe SE just inverted the spikes that Utsusemi used to create when being cast. By the way, I could be inaccurate so take what I said with a grain of salt.

That description of Utsusemi and enmity is incorrect. I level my NIN to 41 after that update, and Utsusemi's enmity works like this:

1. You gain enmity for casting Utsusemi; I've had monsters turn/run (back) to me right after casting Utsusemi while playing NIN/WAR, WAR/NIN, MNK/NIN, and WHM/NIN (don't ask ).
2. You lose (tiny bit of) enmity when the monster takes down a shadow. The amount lost is negligible, unless you're right at the threashhold and bouncing the mob between pet and yourself on BST/NIN or something.

When someone gets hit by a monster (anyone) you lose some amount of hate (this amount is effected by CHR which is why CHR is good for tanks.)

I've heard of this CHR theory before, but never seen any data. Can you point to some solid experiments which show the effect of CHR on enmity?

Before the update that changed Utsusemi, when a shadow would take the damage it would count as a miss, which reduces no hate. So, what the update did, was count shadows as a hit so it reduced hate just like if you were actually hit.

That is an exaggeration of enmity loss from losing Utsusemi shadows. ^_^; Honestly, the enmity loss from dropping shadows is nothing compared to actually getting hit.

This was done in an effort to make tanking for balanced between the two. NIN = No damage, low hate. PLD = Lots of damage, lots of hate.

I find that difficult to believe; I don't recall NIN's crying out about big nerf of their tanking ability, beyond the placebo effect. I followed Allakhazam's NIN forum closely shortly after the update, and the general concensus (after the initial outcry died down) was that the Utsusemi enmity change didn't affect tanking much, if at all, IIRC.

If anything, it's the Auto Refresh and the Shield Mastery job traits that evened the playing field between PLD and NIN tanking a bit. That, and the ever increasing shield proc rate.

* * *
Getting back on topic, though; PLD has seen enough improvement in terms of job traits, shield mechanism tweeks, and equipement additions (e.g. Lv.29 Kamph set) on top of solid tanking game it always had to maintain viability as exp party tank from Lv.10-70+.

So, to OP, once again: if you want to play Paladin, go for it. It's a fun job, and
becomes more fun with more aggressive and powerful damage dealers in party. ^_^

[dirtyclown]

Re: Hard decision...

That description of Utsusemi and enmity is incorrect. I level my NIN to 41 after that update, and Utsusemi's enmity works like this:

1. You gain enmity for casting Utsusemi; I've had monsters turn/run (back) to me right after casting Utsusemi while playing NIN/WAR, WAR/NIN, MNK/NIN, and WHM/NIN (don't ask ).
2. You lose (tiny bit of) enmity when the monster takes down a shadow. The amount lost is negligible, unless you're right at the threashhold and bouncing the mob between pet and yourself on BST/NIN or something

It's entirely possible that the mob was turning back to you because you were on the threshhold, as you said. I've seen mobs run for a mage, smack them once, and run right back to me. Could be that their hate level was even with yours or just a little bit higher, and when they got hit and you just happened to be casting, the mob returned to you. I'm not trying to say that I'm right, actually I think both of us aren't very accurate. Who knows, though.

If anything, it's the Auto Refresh and the Shield Mastery job traits that evened the playing field between PLD and NIN tanking a bit. That, and the ever increasing shield proc rate.

We didn't need either of them in the first place. The shield rate improvement was nice, but both of those traits were unnecessary. That implies that we were weak to begin with, and that's just not true. Paladins have always been the way they should be, powering us up so that we're "on par" with a grossly overpowered job class is not the way to go.