Hard decision...

[Davitron3000]

Re: Hard decision...

We didn't need either of them in the first place. The shield rate improvement was nice, but both of those traits were unnecessary. That implies that we were weak to begin with, and that's just not true. Paladins have always been the way they should be, powering us up so that we're "on par" with a grossly overpowered job class is not the way to go.

I don't know if we needed them or not, but the shield update gave me the confindence to stop using that stick agains HNM and tank things with a Sword & Shield

[Maju]

Re: Hard decision...

It's entirely possible that the mob was turning back to you because you were on the threshhold, as you said. I've seen mobs run for a mage, smack them once, and run right back to me. Could be that their hate level was even with yours or just a little bit higher, and when they got hit and you just happened to be casting, the mob returned to you. I'm not trying to say that I'm right, actually I think both of us aren't very accurate. Who knows, though.

I'm pretty sure Itazura is right. Utsusemi creates enmity, but losing a shadow makes you lose an insignificant ammount of hate.

Paladins have always been the way they should be, powering us up so that we're "on par" with a grossly overpowered job class is not the way to go.

I agree, except shields really needed a boost because they totally sucked before.

[AmyRose]

Re: Hard decision...

OP: for what it's worth, I'm a level 58 Paladin on the Shiva server.

Whenever I don't have my flag up, I need to go on /anon or I am constantly sent tells consisting of {Party} {Do you need it?} or even blind invites. These are from people I've never partied with as well as people I have. Whenever I've put my flag up, I've had to wait half an hour at most for an invite.

I don't think Paladin is a dying class. Sure, nin is overpowered at the moment, but take for example my RL best friend's end game linkshell. They have one member that goes to god fights as a ninja, because it's the only job he has at 75. Do you know what he does during the fight? 2 hour and DD. That's all he can do. The paladins take care of the rest. If I've read correctly, Maju hasn't done Sky gods, so don't let his doom and gloom attitude bother you. You'll be fine. I know many 75 Paladins, none of which have had a problem getting to 75. When you're nearing the end levels, remember to get some DD gear, perhaps level a nin sub. Make yourself flexible, like every job has to. You'll have no problems.

Gogo Pally power!

[Karinya]

Re: Hard decision...

I've never been in Limbus either. I'd imagine the mob toughness is similar to Dynamis, though, which is pretty damn weak.

Depends on the area and floor. Mini-Faf is no joke (and I wouldn't want to see a ninja try to tank him; terrorize > no shadows > dead in seconds if they don't lose hate in time).
Also, the ability to 2hour every floor (since the healing chests reset all JA timers) can be a huge asset to PLD.

Yeah, I did 2-5 as PLD (not done with CoP yet as it's near impossible to find a PT during EU time) even though it's a NIN onry mission. I burned through a hefty ammount of potions and yagudo drinks despite having just about the best possible 40 cap gear, though. We had a DRG in the group also.

NIN only? what are you smoking? A NIN will get destroyed trying to tank 3 mammets at once. Unless you're going to have several extra party members doing nothing but kiting extra mammets around, a PLD is practically required.
And almost all CoP missions require a lot of consumables, so get used to it. >.>

What if there are no adds? Do you then feel proud of being a ghetto WHM since you'll get destroyed in seconds if you try to tank?

No you won't. Alastor Antlion doesn't hit that hard. Added effect petrify is nasty, but it's actually MORE dangerous to a ninja. Either way, if your WHMs aren't on the ball, you're in trouble, but a PLD can take quite a few hits from him if necessary.
I think you're overstating the supposed superiority of NIN at avoiding damage. They're very good on some mobs, but they're not supreme at everything. It *is* disappointing how many HNMs just have higher damage and still slow attack speed, but it's certainly not all of them. Ninjas are also more vulnerable to harmful status (paralyze, petrify, silence, stun, terrorize).
NIN can still do quite decent damage while tanking and PLD really can't, but PLD can put up more hate (on IT mobs or HNMs) allowing other party members to do more damage.

[Karinya]

Re: Hard decision...

Yes they have Adaman Hauberks and Ridills and stuff, but last time I checked none of those gave you more max HP, higher resists, more magic def or more utsu shadows. They only give you more damage output (the same goes for merits).
Link here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=aF0NtDdXP3c
They take Kirin from 100% to 40% in about 2 mins and 10 seconds. Apparently they did three runs like this in a row.

Meaningless. Anyone who has ever fought Kirin knows what the real challenges of that fight are: summons (obviously happened before this video started), spells especially Stonega IV (he didn't cast ANY? Did they kite him until he ran out of MP?), and Astral Flow (probably why the video ends with "And then the cameraman died", with that positioning AF is going to wipe half their alliance).

If he doesn't have any spells, straight tanking him is not hard, with or without shadows (Heat Breath and Great Sandstorm both go through shadows anyway; Stonega IV and Astral Flow wipe shadows and damage you at the same time.) Doing damage to him when he's unkited isn't that hard either.
A video of all the time from pop to kill would give a rather different impression.


P.S. Gear does affect Utsusemi. It's called Haste. There's also quite a bit of resist and HP gear, although I don't know if they would bother wearing it or not.

[Maju]

Re: Hard decision...

NIN only? what are you smoking? A NIN will get destroyed trying to tank 3 mammets at once. Unless you're going to have several extra party members doing nothing but kiting extra mammets around, a PLD is practically required.
And almost all CoP missions require a lot of consumables, so get used to it. >.>

Tank all 3? What are you smoking? You tank one at a time and kill it while two others are being either kited around by SMN or RDM or tanked by NIN. A NIN can lock a mammet down to DRG mode and take 0, yes, ZERO hits for as long as he has yellow liquids.

Meaningless. Anyone who has ever fought Kirin knows what the real challenges of that fight are: summons (obviously happened before this video started), spells especially Stonega IV (he didn't cast ANY? Did they kite him until he ran out of MP?), and Astral Flow (probably why the video ends with "And then the cameraman died", with that positioning AF is going to wipe half their alliance).

The summons did not happen. They managed to kill Kirin twice with only one lesser god summoned because he just died so fast. They did not kite at all. Simply voke and TP burn to death. The massive melee spam interrupted (according to one of the WARs) 80-90% of all Kirin's spell casts.

The video I linked to is the first run they decided to use Mighty Strikes in an attempt to break the 5 min marker. Unfortunately right before the video ends they got a Stonega IV + Astral Flow combo that killed some of the WARs and the 5 min time was not reached. They did manage to finish Kirin off, though.

If he doesn't have any spells, straight tanking him is not hard, with or without shadows (Heat Breath and Great Sandstorm both go through shadows anyway; Stonega IV and Astral Flow wipe shadows and damage you at the same time.) Doing damage to him when he's unkited isn't that hard either.
A video of all the time from pop to kill would give a rather different impression.
P.S. Gear does affect Utsusemi. It's called Haste. There's also quite a bit of resist and HP gear, although I don't know if they would bother wearing it or not.

They did kill him the same way at least twice before this video was made and it's from 100% to 0% straight meleeing in a TP burn fashion. The times were 12 minutes and then 8 minutes IIRC.

I believe they had two parties like this: 3x WAR/NIN, 2x BRD, 1x WHM.

And yes, my bad, haste gear does give an advantage. Luckily most of WAR haste gear is relatively easy to obtain.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Hard decision...

We didn't need either of them in the first place. The shield rate improvement was nice, but both of those traits were unnecessary. That implies that we were weak to begin with, and that's just not true. Paladins have always been the way they should be, powering us up so that we're "on par" with a grossly overpowered job class is not the way to go.

I don't consider NIN overpowering (NIN41 and PLD43 here); compared to PLD, it's a more risk for more reward--take less damage, do more damage, but offers party less safety, and restrict damage output of the DD's. The problem was PLD by contrast was preceived to be doing so much less damage while taking on so much more, making them seem a lot less desirable.

Auto Refresh and Shield Mastery now allow PLD to rest less and participate in SC more often, thus contribute more to damage by allowing more MB's, without radically altering the Paladin's own damage contribution or play style. It's a smart move on S-E's part to encourage more cooperative gameplay for PLD, and giving everyone else another solid support job choices at higher level.

Along with the higher shield proc rate, the two traits improved Paladin enough to make it easier for party leaders to choose PLD as tank. And, if you ask my PLD49 friend who returned after a year of absence from the game, they also make the job more fun to play. Now, that, may be more important than anything NIN can or cannot do compared to Paladin.

[dirtyclown]

Re: Hard decision...

I don't consider NIN overpowering (NIN41 and PLD43 here); compared to PLD, it's a more risk for more reward--take less damage, do more damage, but offers party less safety, and restrict damage output of the DD's. The problem was PLD by contrast was preceived to be doing so much less damage while taking on so much more, making them seem a lot less desirable.

Of course you don't think it's overpowered, you play the job. As you know, we generate huge amounts of Enmity through taking damage and curing it back. Everyone seemed to be aware of that before, but with the recent decline in player quality (lazy healers, people who want to speed through the levels, etc.) we get to deal with those dynamite individuals who give us backhanded comments and don't even give us a chance. People are too obsessed with how awesome they are, or how much exp they're getting compared to how much effort they're putting forth. I dunno about you, but I'm really tired of hearing about "NIN onry" missions, mobs, etc.

Just a little bit ago I was talking with a NIN friend of mine. He was in a party with a Warrior who had a Kraken club and was able to spam Rampage every 20 seconds or so. I felt sorry for him, because he was having a nightmare trying to hold hate through all this. I'd look at things like that as a perfect example of someone who doesn't give a crap about the party aspect and just wants to put out large numbers, which increases the size of his e-ponos but at the same time, makes him a complete pain in the ass to play with. A dynamite individual if ever there was one.

Auto Refresh and Shield Mastery now allow PLD to rest less and participate in SC more often, thus contribute more to damage by allowing more MB's, without radically altering the Paladin's own damage contribution or play style. It's a smart move on S-E's part to encourage more cooperative gameplay for PLD, and giving everyone else another solid support job choices at higher level.

Any Paladin with half a brain knows how to conserve MP well enough without an auto refresh trait. We didn't need it in the first place. All we needed was a competent Red Mage or Bard and we were ready to rock. All it does for us is make things more convenient, and even easier than before.

Along with the higher shield proc rate, the two traits improved Paladin enough to make it easier for party leaders to choose PLD as tank. And, if you ask my PLD49 friend who returned after a year of absence from the game, they also make the job more fun to play.

Know what I really miss? Back in the day when shields actually made sense and negated the damage you received and were a complete pain to skill up. The new formula is decent enough, but I wouldn't miss it if things went back to the way they were. I'm still firmly of the opinion that we were never broken to begin with.

[csBahamut]

Re: Hard decision...

Both NIN and PLD are good. Both work well in their own way. A lot of the new endgame content works great with both a NIN AND a PLD. How else did we beat Proto-Omega with 12 people, and have people calling BS on us? Because we know how to use EVERY job. Keeping hate in Limbus? Sure, I can do that while dishing out damage as well. Tank the bosses too? Easy. Need a hint? PLD is great at making spike hate. NIN is great at damage reduction when they can keep shadows up. Take the two strengths and you get a tanking team that will do better than any PLD onry or NIN onry team. For the regular mobs in Limbus, you only /need/ to tank like in Dynamis: keep it off the mages. The melees can handle a few hits, not that I'll let them get hit much anyways. Generally though, we let the NINs and WAR/NINs tank the regular mobs in Limbus, and the PLDs keep the adds off the sleepers. It really depends a lot on the available support.

I also get plenty of invites on PLD, as long as I start seeking at the right time (when people are just logging on and forming parties). And I generally get asked to tank as PLD/WAR for merits. Not only do I hold hate, but I deal damage AND keep my damage low enough to keep chains going. Add in that PLDs can hold hate with magic, or JAs on Imps, and you got a real nice tank.

While I think NIN is still better than PLD, it's not by much. The rest of the FFXI population just hasn't found it yet. I haven't even discovered everything yet, but I'm ahead of the times. From what I've read, Hankthetank and Davitron300 are as well. The shield updates, and the auto-refresh addition helped out a lot. Really, it's all about knowing your job. Knowing when to use what food, what SJ, and what gear is what defines a good PLD. People excel at NIN now because all the information on how to perform well is out there and well developed. PLD has recently had to adjust to account for the discoveries made with NIN, and the changes to PLD. This has mostly been an uphill battle because of just how effective Utsusemi makes NIN. No matter what we good PLDs discover, it's just not sellable to your common mindless gamer who sees 0 damage as always better than taking some damage.

The real problem lies with Utsusemi, like others have said, and I've been saying for like a year or so. People see 0 damage taken for no MP cost, what could be better? PLDs taking 0 damage hurts the job. We need to take damage so we can use our cures, otherwise having magic is pointless. I think something like making Utsusemi rely on Ninjitsu skill level more would be the best thing SE could do. NINs could still blink tank, but the whole /NIN thing would be all but practically shot out of the water. I also think exp/hr should be capped. That way, being overly powerful for meriting and exp would be pointless. Or it would allow people to kill stuff till the exp stops, then take a quick break until the hour is up. How much do players really learn by mindlessly spamming WS? The only ones learning anything are the mages, because they do most of the work.

[Aeni]

Re: Hard decision...

The real problem lies with Utsusemi, like others have said, and I've been saying for like a year or so.

I kind of thought about it and then something kind of struck me funny.

Make ninjutsu mana pool dependant.

OMG ... ?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Hard decision...

Of course you don't think it's overpowered, you play the job.

Have you ever thought about leveling NIN? It's quite fun (and exhusting), and you will discovered how much you'd miss the safety you can offer party members as a PLD. You'll also likely form some appreciation for the amount ingenuity it required to make NIN work as tank, and how much harder one has to work as NIN to be a tank.
(If anything, it's WAR/NIN that seems broken, rather than NIN/WAR.)

As you know, we generate huge amounts of Enmity through taking damage and curing it back. Everyone seemed to be aware of that before, but with the recent decline in player quality (lazy healers, people who want to speed through the levels, etc.) we get to deal with those dynamite individuals who give us backhanded comments and don't even give us a chance.

Your server is lucky the parties can afford to be so choosy with tanks; at the hours I can play on Ifrit, I'd be lucky if I can coax two WAR/NIN's to dual tank for me before my RDM perma finally found a static tank. We were basically camping for both PLD's and NIN's twice a week... Oh, our static tank turned out to be a PLD--and everyone in the group is quite happy with that, thank you. (With BRD and RDM in our static group, that PLD is the tank and the main healer.)

People are too obsessed with how awesome they are, or how much exp they're getting compared to how much effort they're putting forth.

Guilty as charged--then again, my PLD static group consistently gets chain#5's when we exp. Unfortunately, I can't take the credit for that with my PLD; it's due the entire group's effort, cooperation, and the lack of competitors at the offbeat camps we favor, that allowed us to achieve the good exp.

Any Paladin with half a brain knows how to conserve MP well enough without an auto refresh trait. We didn't need it in the first place. All we needed was a competent Red Mage or Bard and we were ready to rock. All it does for us is make things more convenient, and even easier than before.

The game has changed, and that includes expectations the parties have for their tanks; to ignore evolution and stubbonly cling to the notion that "everything is fine if we just nerf the competing job" is ultimately silly. Two tanking jobs is better than one for FFXI--it wasn't the original design for NIN to suppliment PLD, but it happened, and I think it turned out to be a good thing.

Know what I really miss? Back in the day when shields actually made sense and negated the damage you received and were a complete pain to skill up. The new formula is decent enough, but I wouldn't miss it if things went back to the way they were. I'm still firmly of the opinion that we were never broken to begin with.

Paladin was a well designed job, but taking it away from context of everything else--emergence of new tanking style, changing party expectations, new equipement, new mobs, new methodology to squeeze more damage and exp/hour from party, etc. etc.--then proclaim everything was fine the way it was except for NIN--is rather myopic. =/

[dirtyclown]

Re: Hard decision...

Have you ever thought about leveling NIN? It's quite fun (and exhusting), and you will discovered how much you'd miss the safety you can offer party members as a PLD. You'll also likely form some appreciation for the amount ingenuity it required to make NIN work as tank, and how much harder one has to work as NIN to be a tank.
(If anything, it's WAR/NIN that seems broken, rather than NIN/WAR.)

Been there, done it. Fuck that noise. I don't see how spinning the elemental wheel and juggling Shadows is diffcult, my time as a RDM made it rather easy to pick up and run with. lolskill.

Paladin was a well designed job, but taking it away from context of everything else--emergence of new tanking style, changing party expectations, new equipement, new mobs, new methodology to squeeze more damage and exp/hour from party, etc. etc.--then proclaim everything was fine the way it was except for NIN--is rather myopic. =/

Just making sure we're on the same page, I said everything was fine with Paladins, not everything else in the game. I'd rather not get into the other things that this game's community does that makes me want to kill them all with fire. Perhaps another day.

The game has changed, and that includes expectations the parties have for their tanks; to ignore evolution and stubbonly cling to the notion that "everything is fine if we just nerf the competing job" is ultimately silly. Two tanking jobs is better than one for FFXI--it wasn't the original design for NIN to suppliment PLD, but it happened, and I think it turned out to be a good thing.

When expectations change to "Shadows or GTFO", I think something's a bit wrong there. Especially when everything that these people profess as "This mob needs to be blinked. No other way is possible." are the same assholes who sung the praises of Rangers before their big "nerf". Now the only Rangers are the people who actually gave a damn about the job to begin with. Everyone else has either quit or switched occupations.

You're misinterpreting my anger. I'm not upset that the game is evolving and I'm afraid of competition. I'm upset because there are too many "me too" retarded sheep that listen to every word of popular opinion. I'm tired of hearing dumb shit about how I can't tank something that I've tanked before because I'm not a Ninja. And when I say I've been there and done that, I get called a liar. It's ok though, I'd rather not have anything to do with people like that.

The fact that we received a few gifts from SE implies to the average player that we were somehow lacking. We weren't lacking. We're even more capable now than before. But that's not going to change anyone's opinion of us. Hell, it's been 3 years now and people are just starting to get over the fact that Dragoon is one of the best underrated DD out there, along with Warriors. Eh..It's pointless to argue. Brb, going to tank some "Ninja only" mobs. :3

[raidenn]

Re: Hard decision...

Who are the people who claimed that there are 'ninja only' mobs?

Tried Paladin and Ninja before. I have to say Ninja abilities are pretty unique. Armor selection needs a little work though. Played as Rdm before, its not the same. I have seen a LS member who is a level 70s Rdm go as a Nin in another BCNM event. Messed up so bad that it caused a wipeout.

[dirtyclown]

Re: Hard decision...

Who are the people who claimed that there are 'ninja only' mobs?

Tried Paladin and Ninja before. I have to say Ninja abilities are pretty unique. Armor selection needs a little work though. Played as Rdm before, its not the same. I have seen a LS member who is a level 70s Rdm go as a Nin in another BCNM event. Messed up so bad that it caused a wipeout.

Playing Red Mage helped me learn how to multitask better. Guess it didn't work for your LS mate? Also, um..I'm not going to go out of my way and save chat logs just to prove something to you.

[raidenn]

Re: Hard decision...

You dont have to prove anything. Just by playing Rdm doesnt mean you can be a good ninja.

If you have a hard time trying to find a party who arent 'close minded' and would prefer a ninja to tank certain NMs , then form your own party.