Hard decision...

[Davitron3000]

Re: Hard decision...

Ok, let's say 15 mins. Having the best gear and full merits has about 0 effect on your survival since it's all about buffs and Utsusemi. It will simply take a bit longer as a new 75 war.

So the the best gear and full merits doesn't increase your survival? Also, please give me the link to this 'Kirin burn'. I have heard about it but have never seen it. I am willing to bet the war/nin have Adaman Hauberk, Ridill, etc... Like I said, just picking a job doesn't give you a free pass. You don't see all Redmages soloing stuff like that one Redmage does. (Avesta I think is the redmage) Do you persnally know anyone in game that has done a 'Kirin burn'?

Yes, I know subbing NIN does work better in many situations. It might even work better than NIN/WAR or the new and popular NIN/DRK. However, you're still playing more with your sub than you are with your main since blinking attacks circumvents most of the PLD's strenghts.

Please explain how subbing Ninja circumvents a Paladin's strengths. I sub Ninja to help my main job (Paladin) just like I sub Warrior to help Paladin. No matter what sub I am still using my Paladin job abilities and job traits to tank, aided by the abilities, spells, and job traits of my sub.

I could for example never tank Zilly Zilla (or whatever its name is) but a NIN can do it without breaking a sweat. The same goes for Charybdis and many other NMs.

Are those the harder NM you were speaking of earlier?

Anyways, I agree that it can be discouraging that Utsusemi can be so powerful. That doesn't stop me from participating in endgame events though. Also, it seems people think that blink tanking is easy, well I don't think it is. Right now for me tanking as ninja is much harder than tanking as Paladin. Well, at least I have fun playing Paladin

edit: Kirin Burn link - http://faranim.livejournal.com/122966.html

[Maju]

Re: Hard decision...

So the the best gear and full merits doesn't increase your survival? Also, please give me the link to this 'Kirin burn'. I have heard about it but have never seen it. I am willing to bet the war/nin have Adaman Hauberk, Ridill, etc... Like I said, just picking a job doesn't give you a free pass. You don't see all Redmages soloing stuff like that one Redmage does. (Avesta I think is the redmage) Do you persnally know anyone in game that has done a 'Kirin burn'?

Yes they have Adaman Hauberks and Ridills and stuff, but last time I checked none of those gave you more max HP, higher resists, more magic def or more utsu shadows. They only give you more damage output (the same goes for merits).

Link here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=aF0NtDdXP3c

They take Kirin from 100% to 40% in about 2 mins and 10 seconds. Apparently they did three runs like this in a row.

Please explain how subbing Ninja circumvents a Paladin's strengths. I sub Ninja to help my main job (Paladin) just like I sub Warrior to help Paladin. No matter what sub I am still using my Paladin job abilities and job traits to tank, aided by the abilities, spells, and job traits of my sub.

The paladin is characterized by its high defense and expertise with shields. Shadows bypass both of those checks.

Are those the harder NM you were speaking of earlier?

Not really. They have relatively low HP (at least Zilla) and no massive TP moves or spells. They simply have too strong melee attacks for paladins except perhaps if you have a whole alliance there.

[Zamphire]

Re: Hard decision...

Let me ask you something Dirty. This isn't about whether PLDs are broken or not or whatever. But say this. If utsusime broke the game like you said, where would we be if they took it out?

We'd be down to one tank and one tank only... PLD. Now, this is great for all you PLDs out there, but now everyone is going to complain that there aren't enough tanks, because there wont be. No longer will you be able to do most tp burns so those are out, exp is going to slow back down to the normal 4-5k an hour, and the lower levels are going to be horrid because there wont be enough PLDs to support all the partys. Warriors work as tanks till maybe 35ish, after that they really start to slack off. PLDs are great tanks, dont get me wrong, I am one. But, you need at least two of every roll to make this game succesful. PLD and NIN both have their pros and cons, but taking out utsusemi may solve one problem, and yet create many more. We ran into that problem with refreshers, it got to the point where you really needed one and Bards were rare and there weren't enough RDMs. Now that they've put in COR it's gotton better, but not perfect. Killing one job to help others isn't the way to go. Utsusemi did not "break" this game, in many ways, it helped it, alot.

[Maju]

Re: Hard decision...

No longer will you be able to do most tp burns so those are out, exp is going to slow back down to the normal 4-5k an hour, and the lower levels are going to be horrid because there wont be enough PLDs to support all the partys.

Oh please. Most of my parties break 8k/h and I haven't done a single TP burn.

Killing one job to help others isn't the way to go. Utsusemi did not "break" this game, in many ways, it helped it, alot.

[sarcasm]
Yeah it helped lots. It made tanks entirely useless and made damage absorbing so effortless that SE had to design so tough enemies that non-blink tanks can't handle them. Wonderful, right?
[/sarcasm]

[eticket109]

Re: Hard decision...

Its been said ad nauseum... but I'll say it again anyway.

You play the game. You pay for the game. Since you are paying to play the game, play the job you want to play. It's good to have advice but in the end your opinion is the most important.

[Davitron3000]

Re: Hard decision...

Yes they have Adaman Hauberks and Ridills and stuff, but last time I checked none of those gave you more max HP, higher resists, more magic def or more utsu shadows. They only give you more damage output (the same goes for merits).
Link here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=aF0NtDdXP3c
They take Kirin from 100% to 40% in about 2 mins and 10 seconds. Apparently they did three runs like this in a row.

You can merit HP last time I checked. Can you honestly say that only Utsusemi had to do with that group killing Kirin so fast? You would honestly say that all that great gear and probably merits didn't help? I am willing to bet that most Linkshells can't kill Kirin this fast. Of course I don't know that for a fact. Are you upset your Linkshell doesn't let you fight Kirin? Why not just ask them to let you or find a new LS that utilizes Paladin?

The paladin is characterized by its high defense and expertise with shields. Shadows bypass both of those checks.

If I am tanking as Pld/nin, I still use my shield and I still use high defense. I am not talking experience parties here...

Not really. They have relatively low HP (at least Zilla) and no massive TP moves or spells. They simply have too strong melee attacks for paladins except perhaps if you have a whole alliance there.

So which HNM were you referring to compared to the 'easier' HNM in sky?

Ok, I am done now, sorry...

[dirtyclown]

Re: Hard decision...

Let me ask you something Dirty. This isn't about whether PLDs are broken or not or whatever. But say this. If utsusime broke the game like you said, where would we be if they took it out?

We'd be down to one tank and one tank only... PLD. Now, this is great for all you PLDs out there, but now everyone is going to complain that there aren't enough tanks, because there wont be. No longer will you be able to do most tp burns so those are out, exp is going to slow back down to the normal 4-5k an hour, and the lower levels are going to be horrid because there wont be enough PLDs to support all the partys. Warriors work as tanks till maybe 35ish, after that they really start to slack off. PLDs are great tanks, dont get me wrong, I am one. But, you need at least two of every roll to make this game succesful. PLD and NIN both have their pros and cons, but taking out utsusemi may solve one problem, and yet create many more. We ran into that problem with refreshers, it got to the point where you really needed one and Bards were rare and there weren't enough RDMs. Now that they've put in COR it's gotton better, but not perfect. Killing one job to help others isn't the way to go. Utsusemi did not "break" this game, in many ways, it helped it, alot.

Buck up, son! The dark times are coming! Remember back in the day when we had Warriors performing tank duties, and it wasn't all too uncommon for a Monk to switch to tanking gear on certain things? I can. Actually, I don't believe I ever mentioned that Utsusemi or the Ninja job itself needs to die, but rather that it has made everyone who plays this game feeble. It's a crutch. "Throw more blink tanks at it while we stand and watch" is common strategy these days, at least from what I can see. Remember back when everyone had to sub Ninja to do promyvion, because it was the "only way"? Those were good times. Especially when people started figuring out better ways to do it rather than having everyone throw up blink and limp their way through to victory.

I'd also like to point out that if Utsusemi were to be killed, it wouldn't kill the Ninja job. Ninjas would just need to find a new way to go about things, like all of us Paladins had to when people started giving us flak for our job choice. We suck, we're not able to completely avoid damage, we aren't like unto Gods, etc. Limitations are what stop us. We require a party to help us bring mobs down, we can't just let everyone else in our party stand there with their thumbs in their asses like a Ninja can. Utsusemi broke this game. And laziness is what will kill it.

[Maju]

Re: Hard decision...

You can merit HP last time I checked.

WARs don't need to merit HP and even if they do it's only +80.

Can you honestly say that only Utsusemi had to do with that group killing Kirin so fast? You would honestly say that all that great gear and probably merits didn't help?

No, I'm saying Utsusemi is what made the strategy viable. They killed it very fast thanks to gear and merits, yes, but even less well geared shells could do the same thing, only slightly slower. Perhaps it would take your average LS twice as long to kill Kirin, but it would still be ridiculously fast compared to what people are used to.

I am willing to bet that most Linkshells can't kill Kirin this fast. Of course I don't know that for a fact.

Not this fast, but using this strategy.

Are you upset your Linkshell doesn't let you fight Kirin? Why not just ask them to let you or find a new LS that utilizes Paladin?

I have a social LS that doesn't do Sky or camp HNMs and a Dynamis shell. I have never fought Kirin and my experience with fighting the lesser sky gods is very limited. I'm not worried about my end game role as far as my LS goes. I'm actually more interested in missions, assault and BCNMs and other miscellaneous activities.

If I am tanking as Pld/nin, I still use my shield and I still use high defense. I am not talking experience parties here...

When a shadow absorbs the hit you're not using your defense or your shield. Sure, you'll probably let some hits through, but the point in subbing NIN is to not get hit at all, thus defense and shields lose most of their potential and simply become your safety net when things don't go the way they should.

So which HNM were you referring to compared to the 'easier' HNM in sky?
Ok, I am done now, sorry...

Genbu, Seiryu, Byakko and Suzaku. Those four are no match for most shells that hunt them. CoP wyrms would be the 'hard' HNMs.

[Zamphire]

Re: Hard decision...

The lack of high defense gear will pretty much prevent a ninja from reliably tanking if utsusemi is killed. They do have the highest evasion in the game yes, but like a 75 NIN once told me "Evasion doesn't mean shit against a level 85 mob."

Yes, I remember war tanks, and MNK tanks, but I dont remember WAR or MNK solo tanking after crawlers nest. When leveling WAR I actually subbed MNK until 31, tanking almost the entire time (WAR/MNK is awsome for holding hate but I wont go into that now.) But once I got to Sauramong/Garliage and started taking 80+ a hit I quickly gave that up and went with dual /nin or a PLD.

No, you didn't say utsusemi needed to die, but you did say the addition of Utsusemi broke the game. So by this statment, as long as utsusemi is in the game, the game is broken. Therefor in order to fix the game, utsusemi needs to be taken out.

[dirtyclown]

Re: Hard decision...

No, you didn't say utsusemi needed to die, but you did say the addition of Utsusemi broke the game. So by this statment, as long as utsusemi is in the game, the game is broken. Therefor in order to fix the game, utsusemi needs to be taken out.

You've got the Gestapo mentality down pretty well, I like that. If Utsusemi were to be taken out at this point, the game would die. Here's a metaphor: The aging beast has a festering wound in it's side. The hunter has observed this beast, and has seen the effects a festering wound can have on the body. Through observation, the Hunter discovers that the wound has affected the beast in ways that he never conceived before. Faced with two choices, he could let the beast carry on with it's miserable existence and eventually die, or put a bullet through it's brain.

The "bullet" would be the devs at SE getting rid of Utsusemi. This game, or the "beast", will die if things keep going the way they are. There is a middle road here, and given time SE will figure something out. The problem that started when people realized what could be done with Utsusemi was not put in check for so long, SE wouldn't dare to do something rash about it now. They'd rather throw off game balance further by powering up other jobs to match the godly might of the shadows.

[DakAttack]

Re: Hard decision...

First we just threw Rangers at everything, then we threw Black Mages at everything, and now we throw shadows at everything.

Ninja is a broken job in concept, theory, and practice. It's too broken to fix now, because the entire game revolves around it in one way or another.

If the amount of shadows employed by Utsusemi was directly related to the Ninjutsu skill things might be a bit more fair. Ninjas would have to rely on their skills like any other job, and people subbing it wouldn't get the most out of it because of the halved skill.

[Zamphire]

Re: Hard decision...

You've got the Gestapo mentality down pretty well, I like that. If Utsusemi were to be taken out at this point, the game would die. Here's a metaphor: The aging beast has a festering wound in it's side. The hunter has observed this beast, and has seen the effects a festering wound can have on the body. Through observation, the Hunter discovers that the wound has affected the beast in ways that he never conceived before. Faced with two choices, he could let the beast carry on with it's miserable existence and eventually die, or put a bullet through it's brain.

The "bullet" would be the devs at SE getting rid of Utsusemi. This game, or the "beast", will die if things keep going the way they are. There is a middle road here, and given time SE will figure something out. The problem that started when people realized what could be done with Utsusemi was not put in check for so long, SE wouldn't dare to do something rash about it now. They'd rather throw off game balance further by powering up other jobs to match the godly might of the shadows.

I think the solution is not to touch the ninja job at all, but do something so that paladin is better at negating damage. Maybe put it back so that we can negate all damage with a shield block. With the new shield addition I think that'd help PLDs alot.

Nurfing any job is not the way to fix another job. No matter what job it may be.

[dirtyclown]

Re: Hard decision...

I think the solution is not to touch the ninja job at all, but do something so that paladin is better at negating damage. Maybe put it back so that we can negate all damage with a shield block. With the new shield addition I think that'd help PLDs alot.

Nurfing any job is not the way to fix another job. No matter what job it may be.

You only say that because you love your delicious shadows. Dak nailed it, we used to throw massive amounts of certain jobs at things, and now it's the Ninja's turn to get smashed with the bat. Bringing back the old damage negation formula would make everyone use bucklers over heavier shields due to it's higher proc rate, forcing us to run around wearing master shields or something similar. Perhaps if all damage negated was put only on the heavier shields then it would work. Otherwise, I dunno. Nerfing one job to fix another job is one thing. But nerfing one job to fix the game itself is another entirely.

[Zamphire]

Re: Hard decision...

You only say that because you love your delicious shadows. Dak nailed it, we used to throw massive amounts of certain jobs at things, and now it's the Ninja's turn to get smashed with the bat. Bringing back the old damage negation formula would make everyone use bucklers over heavier shields due to it's higher proc rate, forcing us to run around wearing master shields or something similar. Perhaps if all damage negated was put only on the heavier shields then it would work. Otherwise, I dunno. Nerfing one job to fix another job is one thing. But nerfing one job to fix the game itself is another entirely.

Actually, you'e dead wrong about my "Delicious Shadows." The only jobs I have high enough to take advantage of Ichi and Ni are BRD and WHM, and of course NIN at 40. BRD doesn't use /nin often, as with whm. So me loving my "Delicious Shadows" isn't the case here. If I'm biased at all, I'm biased towards PLD, with it being at 62.

I don't see shadows as breaking the game. I honestly see it as a help in many places, especially for soloing.

Lets take your god battles. Lets just say no more shadows. Lets fight Byakko. Ok, you're going to need at least 4 PLDs I say to take it straight up. At least one WHM per PLD, probably need more back up healing because they are going to take a beating. You're going to need at least one Refresh to refresh each party, so 2-3 dedicated refreshers. That's 11 people just to tank it. Leaving you with room for only 7 damage dealers. Probably more around 5 damage dealers because you're going to need another healer or two to keep all the melees and damage dealers alive form AOEs and stray spells. Meaning God battles are going to be alot harder. This might not nesessarily be a bad thing, but what's wrong with having all the melee sub nin so they take little to no damage, and throwing in a few more DD.You might could even have 1 NIN (with shadows) and 1 PLD dual tank it making more room for damage.

AS far as your beast analogy. Taking out shadows would change the dynamics of the game entirly. It'd be like taking the bullet out of the beast, and at the same time, giving him 3 hearts, gills, and some other stuff to completely rework his system.

As it stands now, there isn't a whole lot wrong with this game. One job isn't as good of a tank as the other job. Lets make that tank job better instead of changing the game entirely. Alot less trouble.

Taking shadows out of the game wont hurt one job, it's going to hurt almost everyone in the long run.

[Aeni]

Re: Hard decision...

Utsusemi broke this game. Anyone who disagrees with that only does so because they love their delicious shadows. Ignorance and laziness broke it further. SE dumped gas on this burning, sinking ship by trying to play both hands. Introducing gear that assists with blink tanking, and then trying to win the hearts of PLDs with Public Relations faggotry. Just recently they said "Opps! Sorry we screwed you guys over and left you out to dry. Here, have a few job traits." But you know what? We weren't "broken" or in need of a fix. We can do what we've been doing since the beginning just as well now as we could back in the day. The only thing that holds us back is public opinion.

dirtyclown is very right and I bolded a part for emphasis.

No, Paladins were never broken. We did everything (Up to a certain point before enough high level NINs were well versed in tanking - most NINs at the time were subbing THF and were out DD'ing)

Every - EVERY - end game LS at one point or another during those times required PLDs. Multiples. No one bitched about how PLDs were "useless" or complaining about "how much MP it took."

People still got l33t gear for their efforts. Sky was still being run. Bosses taken down. No one complained.

Then NINs became better and better at tanking. They subbed WAR and figured out the intricacies of tanking. Eventually SE broke down and had to "improve" on gear for NINs so they can properly tank (aka an admission that there was no way to prevent players from filling a role in a way that was not intended to be filled)

Blink-tanking was born.

Now I go back to what I said earlier.

People like easy.
Everyone wants more for less.

Sure, it's basic human nature, but it is this that skews game balance. My own opinion? NINs should never have been born in the first place and SE should just improve the WAR class to add in tanking options (As WAR/MNK)