Paladin guide 2.0

[Cadee]

Re: Paladin guide 2.0

Excellent, I'm glad to read guides like this since I plan on taking PLD as soon as I can. I meant to do it when I first played, and just about got to 30 on WAR, ready to unlock extras when I left the game.

I'll refer to this a lot when the time comes, so thank you.

[dirtyclown]

Re: Paladin guide 2.0

New section added, not sure if I'm going to take it any further. I'd like to do some more testing, but Leviathan's a bad place to ask for halp.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Paladin guide 2.0

Hook up a macro like so-> /ma "Cure III" <stpc>. Spam this at your puller, the Red mage as he converts, and any melee who steals hate or loses HP from an Area of Effect attack. Keeps you at the top of the hate list, and generates more hate than it would if you were curing yourself.

The magnitude of enmity generated depends on the amount cured, and the level of the target; a PLD75 curing RDM75 for 200HP generates the same amount as curing himself for 200HP.

Subs:
Oh lawd, is dat sum limited choices? Why yes, it is. Warrior will be your standard choice for exp parties. If you're looking for an experiment, check out this. Armando's onto something here.

/WAR:
You've got Provoke, Double Attack, Defender, Warcry, and Berserk among other things. Berserk can be safely used along with Sentinel as well as Flash, and it's quite likely that you'll be at the defense cap anyway, so taking a little bit more damage isn't an issue if you know how to mitigate it correctly. Don't rely on your support members for this, by the way. If you start taking too much damage, peel off Berserk and cure yourself.

This guide is limited to exp only? Even so, should mention Lv.74+ /NIN is perfectly fine--assuming one can get a (non-synch'ed) party as PLD74+.

This guide does touch upon creatures using Hundred Fists, so I guess it's not strictly exp only. In that case, the lack of /NIN is a big omission. (Not imply /NIN helps for Hundred Fists or anything silly like that, but it is a really widely employed support job.)

--------
Hate tools:
[...]
Cover,
[...]
Reprisal
[...]
Holy circle - [...] Also adds the undead killer trait to allies in the area of effect.

Cover and Reprisal are not tools for generating enmity. Cover is for when someone in party step over the line (or a DD tool when using Save the Queen), and Reprisal is more of a damage mitigation tool. One doesn't really "keep more hate" with Reprisal either; since a PLD/WAR is hit all the time, there's really not much CE to keep to begin with.

If you can hit 6 people, Holy Circle is 20 x 6 = 120 VE. In a typical party, the average would be closer to 4 people, so 80 VE. Provoke is 1800 VE, so HC is not even 1/20th of a Provoke. Enmity wise, Holy Circle is almost a placebo effect, so wouldn't really call that a "hate tool" either. It is good for fighting undeads (but helps party only--not 'allies'), of course.

Maybe shouldn't label the section 'Hate tools".

[dirtyclown]

Re: Paladin guide 2.0

There are many things that I should do, and there are many things that I will not do.

Maybe shouldn't label the section 'Hate tools".

Bitch about semantics some more, it will make me want to rename the section even less.

This guide is limited to exp only?

It's a guide to the job up to around level 60ish. I purposely left out endgame stuff because it would just end up bogging down the guide and I have somewhat limited space to work with as is. I know you really like /NIN so much that you have to talk about it in every post, but it's not a very useful subjob until late game, and this guide has nothing to do with that.

The magnitude of enmity generated depends on the amount cured, and the level of the target; a PLD75 curing RDM75 for 200HP generates the same amount as curing himself for 200HP.

Show me proof with actual numbers and I'll change it. It was written based on personal tests.

[hexx]

Re: Paladin guide 2.0

The magnitude of enmity generated depends on the amount cured, and the level of the target; a PLD75 curing RDM75 for 200HP generates the same amount as curing himself for 200HP.



This guide is limited to exp only? Even so, should mention Lv.74+ /NIN is perfectly fine--assuming one can get a (non-synch'ed) party as PLD74+.

This guide does touch upon creatures using Hundred Fists, so I guess it's not strictly exp only. In that case, the lack of /NIN is a big omission. (Not imply /NIN helps for Hundred Fists or anything silly like that, but it is a really widely employed support job.)


Cover and Reprisal are not tools for generating enmity. Cover is for when someone in party step over the line (or a DD tool when using Save the Queen), and Reprisal is more of a damage mitigation tool. One doesn't really "keep more hate" with Reprisal either; since a PLD/WAR is hit all the time, there's really not much CE to keep to begin with.

If you can hit 6 people, Holy Circle is 20 x 6 = 120 VE. In a typical party, the average would be closer to 4 people, so 80 VE. Provoke is 1800 VE, so HC is not even 1/20th of a Provoke. Enmity wise, Holy Circle is almost a placebo effect, so wouldn't really call that a "hate tool" either. It is good for fighting undeads (but helps party only--not 'allies'), of course.

Maybe shouldn't label the section 'Hate tools".

/NIN is no good for PLD in a general exp setting, where the hell you get that idea? Its good for endgame, where long fights are expected agains certain gods and HNMs, but agains a mob that is gonna die in about a minute or so? Yeah right, try keeping even a shred of hate as PLD/NIN. Hell, why even bother with a tank in that case and just toss in another DD. Anything that generates hate is a "hate tool" why dont you quit BEING a tool and provide some useful information, instead of just copying and pasting from another endgame forum?

Yes, the amount cured will determine how much hate you grab, but curing someone else will ALWAYS generate more hate than curing yourself, otherwise, how else would you explain a PL grabbing hate by JUST curing someone?

/NIN is a widely employed sub, FOR DDS not for a tank. Remember this guide is mainly for exp UP TO level 60, not once will you see a pld sub anything but war until lvl 75 (unless its for solo situations and whatnot).

Quit putting your foot in your mouth k? I can stand idiots, but not idiots who give othesr bad advice.

[Armando]

Re: Paladin guide 2.0

/NIN is no good for PLD in a general exp setting, where the hell you get that idea? Its good for endgame, where long fights are expected agains certain gods and HNMs, but agains a mob that is gonna die in about a minute or so? Yeah right, try keeping even a shred of hate as PLD/NIN. Hell, why even bother with a tank in that case and just toss in another DD

It's called merit parties. A well-geared DD PLD can put up good numbers while helping the back line cure. Some people are willing to sacrifice their EXP/hour a little bit to let a sub-optimal job get some merits.

Anything that generates hate is a "hate tool" why dont you quit BEING a tool and provide some useful information, instead of just copying and pasting from another endgame forum?

Sorry but Holy Circle will never be a hate tool.

[Taskmage]

Re: Paladin guide 2.0

It's called merit parties. A well-geared DD PLD can put up good numbers while helping the back line cure. Some people are willing to sacrifice their EXP/hour a little bit to let a sub-optimal job get some merits.

I just got out of a 25k/hr party as 73pld/nin. One member commented that it was easier to keep chain by repping the last DD with me because they didn't have to hold back to keep from clearing the place before the pops were ready lol. A sprinkling of Cure III meant less dying to Pecking Flurry and of course there was no need to hold hate. So that's why a party would add a pld/nin instead of another heavy DD, and sacrificing exp/hr doesn't even necessarily enter into it.

[Vevau]

Re: Paladin guide 2.0

Quote:
The magnitude of enmity generated depends on the amount cured, and the level of the target; a PLD75 curing RDM75 for 200HP generates the same amount as curing himself for 200HP.
Show me proof with actual numbers and I'll change it. It was written based on personal tests.

Kanican - Enmity Table (Curing)

[Taskmage]

Re: Paladin guide 2.0

More to the point: Kanican - Enmity Testing (Part VIII)

[dirtyclown]

Re: Paladin guide 2.0

I just took a look at the Enmity testing post and it changed the way I look at a few things. It doesn't quite prove everything for me, but it's good enough that I'll change the wording in my guide where it's mentioned.

Sorry but Holy Circle will never be a hate tool.

I'd say it's more of a defensive buff, but I thought that it would be fine to toss all of our abilities into one category. Apparently I've underestimated this community's case of OCD by a great deal.

Edit: I think that I'm going to start rewriting this guide and adding more information. As I said earlier, my space is not limitless, so some things have been left out completely, and other sections had to be shortened. Other parts of the guide have strange wording that I'd like to correct, and there's a few organizational changes I'd like to make. I'd also like to add some larger sections centered around the events that I'm currently actively participating in, as well as some other miscellaneous stuff that I've encountered which I feel needs to be mentioned. I might start a blog or something.

[Armando]

Re: Paladin guide 2.0

I'd say it's more of a defensive buff, but I thought that it would be fine to toss all of our abilities into one category. Apparently I've underestimated this community's case of OCD by a great deal.

I was more pointing it out in response to Hexx's comment (I could tell from the description that you were describing it primarily as what it is - a nifty and situational buff.) Many abilities (e.g. Defender) generate so little hate that calling them a hate tool is ludicrous. But it's probably better to separate them anyways; newbies might get the wrong idea. I myself like to think of Cover as a hate tool. It serves the same purpose as one. Maybe "hate management tools" would be a better term, but who wants to say three extra syllables?

Also, I've done a bit of enmity testing based on Kaeko's findings and methodology and I can vouch for his (and his contributors') numbers and findings to be spot-on.

[Nuriko]

Re: Paladin guide 2.0

I'd say there's no difference between curing yourself and curing another PT member, except for this: to cure damage, it generally is taken first, and THAT will knock off a chunk of CE besides the CE you're gaining from the cure. Not only are you gaining CE, but the person who was just nailed for crossing the hate line is losing it from the hits they're taking...

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Paladin guide 2.0

Others already covered enmity testing by Kaeko, so I'll skip that.

PLD isn't really a tank today in most exp/merit parties by the late 70's. It's not even a tank in light events like Nyzul Isle Investigation, if you have anything close to a decently geared DD in the party. (And, you'll want those decently geared DDs, Nyzul Isle or exp/merit parties.)

For exp/merit partys Lv.75 and near Lv.75, PLD's duties are:
1. Pry the critter off the (BRD) puller.
2. Contribute to HP recovery.
3. Contribute to damage output.

A lot of DD PLD proponents tend to focus on #3, but #1 and #2 are actually a bit more important. #2 also implies curing more than the amount of damage one takes, by the way. Anyway, on the subject of contributing damage, I do what I can:

TP: FFXIGEAR.com
WS: FFXIGEAR.com

Though not ideal, I don't think it's a 'gimped' setup. However, if I output more than 15% of a party's damage output in a merit/Nyzul party, I would consider the DDs weak. (Should be around 10% or under with really strong DDs in party.)

That's how I use/see PLD/NIN.

Can PLD/WAR do the same? Sure. The problem is with duty #2; if the DDs don't take the critter off of the PLD fast, it's easy to lose more HP than one can cure back over time--there's no point using a PLD instead of a WAR/NIN if the front line has a worse HP lose/regain balance over time with the PLD in it curing away.

That's the main reason I prefer /NIN over /WAR in merit parties and even some light events.

Bitch about semantics some more, it will make me want to rename the section even less.

Semantics matters, in my opinion. Oh well.

It's a guide to the job up to around level 60ish.

/WAR:
You've got Provoke, Double Attack, Defender, Warcry, and Berserk among other things.

There seems to be some confusion.

I'd say there's no difference between curing yourself and curing another PT member, except for this: to cure damage, it generally is taken first, and THAT will knock off a chunk of CE besides the CE you're gaining from the cure. Not only are you gaining CE, but the person who was just nailed for crossing the hate line is losing it from the hits they're taking...

That's good point; though it doesn't affect the enmity generated, curing the person hit will help the PLD get above his/her TE. (Just keep it'd have the same effect as curing a WHM procing Devotion set macro to create space on HP bar, or PLD doing the same with HP+ gear, though obviously curing the DD is more 'useful' in the sense of keeping his/her HP from reaching 0.)

[dirtyclown]

Re: Paladin guide 2.0



Now that I've had some time to cool off, I'll actually reply to you.

I'd like to think of this guide as a general information guide on what our job does featuring tips for using our abilities effectively. That's a very broad topic and I've got a bunch to work on before this is complete.

Anyway, You quoted the mention of Warcry as a sub ability and were trying to make some point about my previous comment regarding the general level range of my guide, and at the same time attempt to justify why there should be a section dedicated to the Ninja sub, while also trying to poke holes in my posts by quoting something that was written nearly three years ago. I will get around to adding sections on everything you've mentioned eventually, but before I do you need to stop being so fucking obnoxious. Thanks in advance for your cooperation.

[Callisto]

Re: Paladin guide 2.0

I'd say there's no difference between curing yourself and curing another PT member, except for this: to cure damage, it generally is taken first, and THAT will knock off a chunk of CE besides the CE you're gaining from the cure. Not only are you gaining CE, but the person who was just nailed for crossing the hate line is losing it from the hits they're taking...

That's what Cure Cheat macros are for. My Cure3 macro swaps in Serket Ring to shave off a bit of HP, then swaps in Ritter Gorget/BQ Ring/Gigant Mantle, free 202 HP worth of Cure hate without needing to take damage or find someone in the party/alliance who has. Every PLD above 70 should have a similar macro.