what if?

[Khevn]

Re: what if?

Wall and Barrier are interesting concepts, and there are notably missing from the spell list. What if the gave the Paladin Break abilities like in FFT. Speed break, Mind Break etc. those would increase a paladins stlye of tanking effectiveness. Speed break - reduces enemy attack speed and such and make it a shield based Weaponskill. And then make it all EX and SP to PLD like the ranger WS's.

[Liquidedust]

Re: what if?

Wall and Barrier are interesting concepts, and there are notably missing from the spell list. What if the gave the Paladin Break abilities like in FFT. Speed break, Mind Break etc. those would increase a paladins stlye of tanking effectiveness. Speed break - reduces enemy attack speed and such and make it a shield based Weaponskill. And then make it all EX and SP to PLD like the ranger WS's.

The breaks are actually weaponskills which are attributed to Greataxe. So they are already in the game but is a Warriors plyaing field (and to a certain extent DRK).

Shield Break
Armor Break
Weapon Break
Full Break

On an interesting note though, PLD did have Greataxe skill and could use these weaponskills before the Zilart release.


But to get back on topic, what I feel Paladin needs aren't means to migrate more damage they need faster ways to recover and/or reduce mp usage.

What I would like to see for PLD is Clear Mind and Conserve MP or an Auto-Refresh II at 60 for 2mp/tick. While auto-regen is nice it actually means we generate less hate as PLDs (less hp lost) I would rather focus on regaining mp since that is where hate comes from as PLD.

Basically there is nothing wrong with PLDs, it is just that players doesn't like them overall for exp since eventually there will be downtime with a PLD no matter how you twist and turn it.

[Credos]

Re: what if?

Paladin doesn't need damage, they just need to nerf Utsu. If one job is basically invulnerable, then it doesn't matter how much defense another job has, they're still taking damage, and that's worse. Paladin has enough tools to hold hate without a boost to damage output.

As far as en spells, RDM ONRY txs. There's at least one NPC who talks about how red mages are scary or weird or something because they enchant their swords with magic.

Pretty soon the only thing that rdm can do uniquely (outside of JAs) will be gravity and phalanx. Cocoon is kind of like phalanx, so that leaves gravity, AND THEY NERFED GRAVITY ALREADY.

BLU STOLE MELEE MAGE

DAMNIT STOP STEALING OUR STUFF!

NIN is far from invunerable. If they mess up they can die very fast.

OP - En spell damage is hate free, therefore it serves no purpose for a PLD to have it.

As far as the only things that a RDM can do uniquely. How about duoing Zip, Soloing Genbu (among other things), getting the highest amount of MP/tick refresh out of any job in the game, the wide scope of sub jobs a RDM can choose from.

Griping about RDM is like a king complaining that his ass isn't being wiped by silk.

[dirtyclown]

Re: what if?

Complaints, complaints, complaints. Come on people, quit wasting time with speculation on what you think this job needs. Go out and tank something. -_-

[tdh]

Re: what if?

I like the idea of Enlight, or Enholy, but for PLD Lv.70+. A means for PLD to do more damage is what's needed.

People are saying that PLD and NIN do the same amount of damage, but I've been seeing other wise. PLD w/ Defender on 100%, NIN w/ Berserk on 66%. Swift Blade for less than 100dmg, Blade: Jin for 300~700dmg. (Depending on Crit Merits)

EXP changes at Lv.70, and in some instances in the mid-60's, parties go for speed kills, killing more mobs faster instead of killing stronger mobs a little slower for higher EXP per kill. Well when a NIN can do 25~35dmg each Katana Vs a PLD who's only doing 20dmg with 1 swing. So from my experience, NIN does do more damage than PLD, costing less MP to maintain.

I think the issue of DD comes into play only when it's Merit time. I have yet to merit with a PLD. Since I hit Lv.75, I almost never see any PLDs seeking at all. In the 50's PLD is king, they keep hate, and let everybody else do the killing. NIN hasn't really entered their DD stage in the 50's. They do damage about as much as PLDs do, and often times keep "just enough" hate. For me adding more DD options comes down to Lv.70+.

Some interesting things I've thought of for Paladins:

"Wall" Spell - Takes 1.5 seconds to cast, gives Stoneskin and Phalanx, and adds enmity to the paladin. Costs 30 MP. But with a 45 second recast.

Give them that and an A+ Enhancing Magic skill, and they'll be AWESOME tanks.

This is an interesting idea, however I think it should be called Divine Wall, and should be Divine Magic based, not Enhancing. But giving it a 45 second recast, and only costing 30MP may need to be adjusted, but I like the idea.

For example, AoEs are a nin's weakness. What about an ability like a super Cover that would let the paladin take extra damage from the next area attack while completely shielding the rest of his party from it? You'd have to stock up on HP to keep from getting one-shotted, but you save a lot of downtime and possibly shield the other party members from a nasty status effect.

This is another interesting idea. Give it a /recast like Shield Bash I'm thinking, and even do a damage multiplier. Eba uses a Grim-something AoE that did 400+dmg to anybody in range. So PLD uses Super Cover, and everybody in range has a high chance of tanking 0dmg while the PLD takes a percentage of everybody else's damage. (Only problem is the PLD could then take 1k dmg if 4 people were in range pretty easy. Imagine a 1100 Goblin Bomb in the Bay times 3~4 people. Maybe this isn't a good idea. haha)

An Awe Job Ability that acts like Killer abilites but that works on all enemies so that when the paladin has hate, the monster will be paralyzed with fear and unable to damage him, thus preventing the monster from nullifying his existing hate.

This is an idea, just wondering how often it would proc. With the way it's suggested, the more hate you have, the more you'd paralyze mobs, forcing PLDs to over Cure spending more MP.

My idea for Awe would be a built in Holy Spikes. Has a /random chance of firing off and will intimidate the mob for the next attack. Give it a proc rate about like Double Attack I'm guessing. Doing damage upon hit can be debatable. Low damage, or no damage at all. Just an idea.

I think they went about the Shield Nerf a little wrong. Nerf shield for RDM, WAR, WHM, and whom ever else, but leave it the way it used to be for PLD. I liked the shield size adjustment they just added. Further reinforcement that size does matter. (lol)

There were times during my RDM career that I really hated PLDs, and others where I really hated NINs. Now that I'm Lv.75 only options I can find are NINs. I'd like to have some merit parties with PLDs. I sometimes EXP with a BLM friend, and NIN has a hard time keeping hate after a 1600 MB, even with a THF. Those crazy Tarus!

[Maju]

Re: what if?

I like the idea of Enlight, or Enholy, but for PLD Lv.70+. A means for PLD to do more damage is what's needed.

People are saying that PLD and NIN do the same amount of damage, but I've been seeing other wise. PLD w/ Defender on 100%, NIN w/ Berserk on 66%. Swift Blade for less than 100dmg, Blade: Jin for 300~700dmg. (Depending on Crit Merits)

EXP changes at Lv.70, and in some instances in the mid-60's, parties go for speed kills, killing more mobs faster instead of killing stronger mobs a little slower for higher EXP per kill. Well when a NIN can do 25~35dmg each Katana Vs a PLD who's only doing 20dmg with 1 swing. So from my experience, NIN does do more damage than PLD, costing less MP to maintain.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Most other people in this thread seem to have completely missed the massive gap between PLD and NIN damage. I tank in hauby, amemet +1 and so on and I usually use sushi for food. Do I touch the damage output of a NIN tanking in haste gear and eating sushi? Hell no! If I was wearing full DD gear, would I touch the damage a NIN deals in full DD gear? Hell no!

Damage mitigation is rarely an issue since if you have a rdm + whm/rdm/brd/cor and they put any effort into the game you won't run out of MP and have to rest anyway, but NIN still pulls ahead because it deals more damage. NIN also can usually get away with having a single RDM as the only source of healing and MP, which isn't always possible for PLD.

[Sabaron]

Re: what if?

I don't think Paladin was intended to be a Damage Dealer class. His damage is secondary to his ability to hold enmity and use white magic. I doubt that having an Enlight spell with damage similar to the other En- spells would significantly increase his damage as it is the current suggestion that he does 33% the damage of a ninja. Adding another 5-10 damage per hit would only get him to 41% to 50% and wouldn't solve your problem. I suppose you could sub NIN and get dual wield to bring him up to speed, but then you lose Berserk, Provoke, Warcry, Defender, Double Attack and his shield which is definitely not good--you'd have taken an excellent tank and made him into a lackluster one with similarly lackluster damage dealing capabilities and even lower damage mitigation.

The idea is not to turn the Paladin into a ninja, but give him something that you really want to have in a party to speed things up. A paladin has about 1/2 the mana of a white mage, so his high-end spells are far more costly than his magical peers. A ninja on the other hand, can use his spells as he pleases without downtime for mana refresh (expensive, but not expensive enough that he's going to wince every time he throws a Jusatsu. A Taru-taru Paladin can throw down some very nice magic, but his hit points are less than stellar and he causes a lot less melee damage, and a Galka Paladin would be lucky if he could tie his shoes with his tiny mana pool. The Ninja's tools remove this "trade-off" by making the tools merely cost money. Money can be acquired in advance and saved up whereas you can't "store" mana. Therefore, the Paladin needs an ability, not a spell, that makes him "cooler".

Maybe....

Paladin (68~70): Altana's Grace: When resting, the Paladin's aura increases the rate of mana and hit point regeneration of all nearby party members by +5. TP is not lost during resting.

Allowing the ability to stack with cookies/crackers would make it very nice.

[Empedocles]

Re: what if?

Paladin (68~70): Altana's Grace: When resting, the Paladin's aura increases the rate of mana and hit point regeneration of all nearby party members by +5. TP is not lost during resting.

Allowing the ability to stack with cookies/crackers would make it very nice.

I like that. But would it be close to overpowering? Would the no-TP-loss thing effect the jobs around the Paladin?

[Sabaron]

Re: what if?

I like that. But would it be close to overpowering? Would the no-TP-loss thing effect the jobs around the Paladin?

I don't really have the capacity to test it or the data to number crunch it. Yes, I'm suggesting that the no-TP-loss would be for everyone--it would be a great benefit. If it was too powerful it could simply be "reduced" TP loss. The strength of the ability would have to be set at some point in a harmonious balance with the other high-level character powers.

[Liquidedust]

Re: what if?

I don't really have the capacity to test it or the data to number crunch it. Yes, I'm suggesting that the no-TP-loss would be for everyone--it would be a great benefit. If it was too powerful it could simply be "reduced" TP loss. The strength of the ability would have to be set at some point in a harmonious balance with the other high-level character powers.

Sadly this wont work well with a PLD at all, since when we rest we do switch to a Dark Staff and loose TP that way. And if you touch the TP lost on weapon swap you open a whole other can of worms (TP building in fast-hitting weapons to then switch on WS for example).

So I don't really see how this would work in the PLD favour since we basically always have to swap to a dark staff while resting (sure the hmp wouldn't be bad but we would never be able to stack it for our own purposes).

[Mog]

Re: what if?

>_> I thought it was implied the purpose thread was to discuss how make PLD as appealing as NIN.

Congratulations. You have just created another NIN vs PLD thread.

In the future.....there should be a rule that prohibits people from saying NIN in a PLD thread and vice versa.

[dirtyclown]

Re: what if?

You see kids, this is why we don't make threads with vague titles. People make assumptions and a NIN vs. PLD thread is born! This unholy bastard lovechild is a beacon to all trolls, most of whom either a) Don't care about either job, b) Don't even play the game anymore or c) talk out of their ass. C happens to be my favorite, by the way.

This thread is now about cats. Thank you, and have a nice day.

[little ninja]

Re: what if?

To make ninja an Plds equal you have to ajust it so that plds downtime is reduced. auto refresh will help out to some degree. something i heard S.E was gonna do, but has not. so it just depends on the number of mana per tick they give ya. to tell if it will be useful or not. But why not have Shield drain trait. the shield block would drain a certain amount of hp or mp from a mob. also in doing so would cause a small hate spike. higher your shield skill the better the % of a drain for a decent amount.

[Armando]

Re: what if?

Maybe I misread, but S-E DID give PLD Auto Refresh already.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: what if?

Congratulations. You have just created another NIN vs PLD thread.

In the future.....there should be a rule that prohibits people from saying NIN in a PLD thread and vice versa.

T_T I didn't mean this thread should be a vs. thread (or to offend anyone). I just thought the reason for this thread is because people wanted to "improve" PLD's standing against the other tank job(s).

I'm a NIN41 and a PLD35, and I'm perfectly happy knowing there are strengths and weaknesses unique to each job. If anything, I'd like to see the two jobs become more different, not less--though both are lot's of fun to play with as they are.

A "draw in" ability may be neat... set it on 5 min timer, and watch us tractor live mobs!