what if?

[Feba]

Re: what if?

ones I can think of:

-utsusemi based on ninjutsu skill; takes more shadows during AoEs with lower skill
-/NIN utsu:ni capped at 3 shadows
-hate lowered when you lose a shadow

[Bishop]

Re: what if?

I was under the impression aoe took off all shadows completely? Ex: people spamming poisonaga to kill ustsu.

Edit: I remember them changing that (aoe killing all shadows) a long time ago. So if the amount of shadows taken off were based on ninjutsu skill, then that wouldn't be a nerf, but in fact be a slight improvement.

I'm sure the list of nerfs would probably total up to 3-4, but I just wanted to see them myself since my memory isn't exactly the best. In all honesty, I thought these were more of a job balance than actual nerfs. Not very many exp mobs spam aoe, and even if they do, a quick stun would get the ninja back on track. The job seriously would be overpowered if it was like the past, you kinda have to admit that.

[Ziero]

Re: what if?

They changed it so AoE spells strip all shadows
They changed it so many melee moves will strip all three shadows
They changed it so losing shadows loses enimity instead of building it

I don't think nin should be touched, just buff Pld

I can think of two unique, yet not over powering things to give Plds to buff their dmg mitigation skills

Runic: A 2-3 minute JA that will turn the next magic dmg dealt to the Pld into MP restored. They pop it before a mob casts a spell, get hit with the spell and instead of taking Dmg they gain MP. With a timed ability recast it can't be spammed, but it can negate big spell Dmg and regen their MP thus covering two 'weaknesses' of Plds.

White Wall: A self buff spell, something Plds have no uniqueness with currently, that for as long as it's on negates all dmg done through shield blocks. MP dependent, semi long recast, long casting time, Pld only. Seeing as you gain no TP from taking no Dmg, it will also be a drawback in that sense. But it again allows for a stronger form of Dmg mitigation, the biggest advantage nins have over plds.

I had a third idea, but can't remeber it now O.<

Double Post Edited:

I was under the impression aoe took off all shadows completely? Ex: people spamming poisonaga to kill ustsu.

Some TP moves can remove 1-3 shadows depending on the mobs accuracy. Gob rush for example can take all three normally, but will often times only take 2 or 1 due to evasion.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: what if?

I was under the impression aoe took off all shadows completely? Ex: people spamming poisonaga to kill ustsu.

I think Feba meant AoE physical attacks. One example I encountered recently was Empty Seed attack from Memory Recepticles (??) in Promyvion area. It would usually take off 2 or even just 1 shadow when I was on NIN/WAR, while tended to stripe all three on WAR/NIN.

Ga spells (like Sleepga) will stripe all shadows.

[Khevn]

Re: what if?

OK can some one explain to me how a PLD thread turned in to a nin thread, please talk about nin in the nin channel thanks, now that this thread has completely lost it's intent just close it...

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: what if?

>_> I thought it was implied the purpose thread was to discuss how make PLD as appealing as NIN.

That's why it's good to clear up misunderstandings about NIN before getting back on topic.


p.s. PLD35, NIN41, and WAR36--very experienced lowbie tank, at your service.

[Sabaron]

Re: what if?

Here are things I'd like to see for the PLD:

Auto-Regen (maybe even Auto-Regen II, III) in addition to Auto-Refresh (maybe add Auto-Refresh II as well). Auto-Regen, incidentally, sounds more appropriate to me for a Paladin who takes lots of damage than to a White Mage who is probably the most treasured and protected member of the party.

Lower the timer on Sentinel.

Shield Mastery change to make PLD like unto a God similar to methods suggested above.

An Awe Job Ability that acts like Killer abilites but that works on all enemies so that when the paladin has hate, the monster will be paralyzed with fear and unable to damage him, thus preventing the monster from nullifying his existing hate.

A change in the Cover ability that makes it last longer so that a PLD can opt to cover multiple targets. For instance, Cover lasting 90 seconds, recast every 30 would allow the PLD to cover 3 targets. A more conservative timer would be Duration 30 seconds, Recast 10~15 for two targets. [EDIT] This might cause problems with Continual Covering of mages and make the PLD too powerful... I'll have to think about it.

Another neat idea:

Divine Intervention: A spontaneous instant Reraise Job Trait that goes off when the PLD dies that does not erase his hate. Chance of it going off would be % based on level.


[EDIT: Strike the Shield Mastery Modification]

The Paladin, with A+ skill is already a god with a shield. Giving him Utsusemi-like abilities on his shield simply bows down to the idea that NIN tanking is better. The Paladin's hate mechanism relies on him taking damage and then subsequently curing it; therefore, the paladin cannot be like the Ninja because he can't spam scrolls. Obviously he could use Flash spam, but that's just not the Paladin way. The Paladin Way is to bleed (a lot) to protect his friends.

Maybe a twisted version of Subtle Blow that reduces the Paladin's hate loss from taking damage.

[EDIT: Yet again]

Cures that are self-only and reduced cost/faster cast like some of the Blue Mage's or how the Red Mage has self-only versions of the White Mage's Bar- spells.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: what if?

I don't know about making PLD more NIN like by giving it more and more ways of escaping damage or do damage. Why have two different jobs thich are basically the same in potential to mitigate damage and deal damage?

PLD's specialty is enmity, and I want PLD to get even better at it instead.

Maybe something more like Counter, but instead of countering with sword, do a Shield Bash. And, instead of countering on evade, counter shield bash can only activate when shield blocked successfully, and only sporadically. (Maybe it can activate on parry? Whatever, as long as it's sufficiently different from MNK's version.)

[Sabaron]

Re: what if?

I don't know about making PLD more NIN like by giving it more and more ways of escaping damage or do damage. Why have two classes that are basically the same in potential to mitigate damage and deal damage?

PLD's specialty is enmity, and I want PLD to get even better at it instead.

Maybe something more like Counter, but instead of countering with sword, do a Shield Bash. And, instead of countering on evade, counter shield bash can only activate when shield blocked successfully, and only sporadically. (Maybe it can activate on parry? Whatever, as long as it's sufficiently different from MNK's version.)

Too fast for me. ^^ I had an afterthought, read above.

[Khevn]

Re: what if?

I don't know about making PLD more NIN like by giving it more and more ways of escaping damage or do damage. Why have two different jobs thich are basically the same in potential to mitigate damage and deal damage?

PLD's specialty is enmity, and I want PLD to get even better at it instead.

version.)

We have tons of hate and control, but we can hold a monster all day and it seems we still aren't appealing to specialty classes anymore. Unless our mitigation is increased, we're still going yo be second rate at 70+ for exp, so having more hate and enimty garnering really isn't helping us become more appealing for EXP, we're one trick ponies apparently from everyone's point of view. What sucks is after 2 years of playing the class and seeing what the nin can do first hand in EXP parties, I pretty much have to accept that, reliable as we are, we're still second rate. So sad how we're used for HNM but we're shunned from doing what can increase our potential at doing this. Welp guess i'll go back to killing Dc's for my merits... Later

[Slip]

Re: what if?

I got an option for you: Forget mitigation. What we're really in need of is something to make the downtime a party experiences with a Pld (or any mp user) similar to what a party experiences with Nin and everyone /Nin. Easy answer there - add a new class of MP Refresh juices 1/tick - 5/tick that aren't a "Refresh" effect. That way a Rdm can still stack Refresh on you and they don't lose their place in parties either. If you want to be really kind let these drinks stack to 99 in the gobbie bag too.

Say you're earning back 9 mp tick, how many Cures and Flashes could you afford to spam in your average fight then? How much downtime would you have? Basically Nin's get to spend all their "downtime" outside the party while they farm or do whatever for the gil to pay for their tools. So add some option for Plds to throw money at their downtime too and things will be more even without breaking either job.

[Taskmage]

Re: what if?

Nah, that factor of downtime being outside the party may be nin's most attractive trait, but the other side of the coin is the expensive, which is many people's least favorite thing about nin and also the reason there are so many second rate ninja out there. I don't think anyone would jump up and down to have that feature added to another job.

I think we may be thinking too inside the box with the ideas presented so far. One class is always going to be better on damage mitigation. I think we're stuck on the idea that that class is supposed to be paladin when that front is a lost cause. What pld really needs, I think, is a unique ability that will give them a tanking niche that would make them hands down better in certain situations.

For example, AoEs are a nin's weakness. What about an ability like a super Cover that would let the paladin take extra damage from the next area attack while completely shielding the rest of his party from it? You'd have to stock up on HP to keep from getting one-shotted, but you save a lot of downtime and possibly shield the other party members from a nasty status effect.

There's a shield at higher levels with charges of contagion transfer, which seems to dump your negative status on the target. What if paladin got that as a job ability? That would make certain mobs like coeurls much easier to exp on. Or better yet, what about an innate trait that gives a chance to reflect status attacks, possibly on the condition of a shield proc. That would make it more effective against paralyze and let it actually work against sleep and petrification.

This is thinking back along the lines of damage/mitigation, but if pld needs more damage, what about a revenge type skill that deals damage proportionate to the damage you've taken?

[Rodin]

Re: what if?

Some interesting things I've thought of for Paladins:

"Wall" Spell - Takes 1.5 seconds to cast, gives Stoneskin and Phalanx, and adds enmity to the paladin. Costs 30 MP. But with a 45 second recast.

Give them that and an A+ Enhancing Magic skill, and they'll be AWESOME tanks.

New Job Trait:

Frontline Charge - Randomly allows the player to attack for 5x damage (Recieved at level 38, so PLD onry).

This would make them be able to do some nice damage with a sword.

Also, about the shield blocking, SE won't change it back, because then it won't have a hidden effect for it's Relic Shield, and it would make Shadow Mantle useless. -_-

[Taskmage]

Re: what if?

Runic: A 2-3 minute JA that will turn the next magic dmg dealt to the Pld into MP restored. They pop it before a mob casts a spell, get hit with the spell and instead of taking Dmg they gain MP. With a timed ability recast it can't be spammed, but it can negate big spell Dmg and regen their MP thus covering two 'weaknesses' of Plds.

I somehow missed this post. Runic is a great idea.

[Rodin]

Re: what if?

I somehow missed this post. Runic is a great idea.

I can see it now:

Kirin casts Stonega IV.
Paladin recovers 800MP.
<Paladin> WAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA.
<Ninja> ; ;

Of course, the only problem I see with that is the majority of mobs you fight, don't use magic. And the ones you do, don't always use the right magic, lol. So it would still be the same issue of, Paladins are wanted for everything EXCEPT XP parties. :/