Paladins a doomed job?

[Quanta]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

The problem with the elemental wheel, the NIN-specific debuffs, and all that is that most NINs aren't going to care enough to spend a small fortune in order to make full use of them, which is why you rarely see it. Not to mention that the ichi elemental ninjutsu does so little damage (but then again, this probably has much to do with NINs not levelling their Ninjutsu skill; casting Utsusemi over and over again will NOT help you cap it, believe it or not) that it hardly seems worth it.

I hear things get really good concerning the elemental ninjutsu in the 40s when you get the Ni-line, but honestly, if they didn't use it then, why use it now?

[dirtyclown]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

I think it's about time someone pro-NIN pops in and makes a huge explanation about how NIN have to be really skilled, PLD is subpar because of x reason, etc. (Takes skill to spend money, kids. Remember that. ^_~) You know what I haven't had in awhile? A nice discussion about tank gear. I just picked up a Bibiki Seashell from a new quest. Ammo slot, +4 VIT. Very nice indeed. On the subject of gear, I was looking at a few endgame sets that made me question a few things regarding HNM tanking, but this is hardly the time to get into that.

[Standablaze]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

PLD is anything but doomed. DDs that can potentially pull a lot of hate, in my own experience (being one of those DDs) prefere PLDs 10 times more than NINs. I'm not very fond of a NIN tank and will invite a PLD over a NIN unless I know the person in question. PLDs just hold hate better, allowing me to do more damage. Thats a simplified explanation.

I do like NIN tanks when I'm playing on my RDM however, but the reason for that is obvious; one less person to refresh, and one less person to cure as often. It mainly comes down to lazyness, I havent noticed any difference with PLD and NIN tanks when it comes to faster kills, it usually works out about the same give or take a few fights, I definetely feel safer with a PLD.

But this all depends on the party; I absolutely despise having a THF in a PLD-tank party. I don't want to be SATAed on so I nearly die, so a THF can do decent damage, this is because I can't pull hate from a PLD very easily. I would have to buff up with everything I have AND throw in a provoke, and hope for double attack to kick in while my buffs are up!! But when it comes to NIN tanks I can easily take hate and allow a proper SATA onto the ninja. So thats a plus for NIN that PLD cant compare too as good.

Luckily for me, I semi-static with a PLD friend when I'm playing DRK.

[dirtyclown]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

Lazy Red Mages make Clown sadface. D:

When you're partying with your DRK, why don't you (assuming you're subbing WAR) pop Defender and remove your equip that lowers defense? It'd make you last a bit longer for the THF to trick onto the PLD.

Also, I dunno what sort of strategy you usually do with a THF in the party, but with a good PLD the THF can just SATA onto you throughout the fight without worrying about pulling too much hate. If holding hate through a huge damage SC and an AM Burst is possible, then holding it through a SATA should be a walk in the park. If worse comes to worse, your PLD can just smack it with their shield and turn it back around.

[csBahamut]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

The really good PLDs know how to keep just the right amount of hate for letting melee turn the mob for SATA, but not lose hate to big WS or MBs.

[lufia22]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

Sure, NIN has great damage mitigation, but what about holding hate?

Your problem is context. The guy was commenting on NIN because he was a THF in a pre-37 NIN party where sticking hate on the NIN isn't exactly a good idea. Not only is the NIN holding hate problem much more evident pre-37, but the guy couldn't do his intended role, therefore making him almost a useless. Of course he is going to think NIN is total crap at this point.

I wasn't making any comment on which is better. I was making a comment on why his view was a little faulty.

[dirtyclown]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

The really good PLDs know how to keep just the right amount of hate for letting melee turn the mob for SATA, but not lose hate to big WS or MBs.

There's that option too. Sadly, I don't get the chance to have anything like this work out due to party config and a suicidal black mage in my static so I have to dominate enmity Ben Wallace style.

[DakAttack]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

People prefer Paladins in the mire, so I'm set for a while.

[ValisOfValefor]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

Man its been awhile since SATA for me, once i got outta the crawlers nest there hasnt been a single thf since. I've pretty much had to learn how to hold hate to the best of my abilities.

(and then there was that monk, who had already put merits in h2h and str and a couple other things, from another job in the 40s with pimped out equipment a PC, x2 snippers. eating meat. yadayadayada) Now that was a learning experience. About halfway through the party we both developed a system, of letting me gain enough hate, then she'd let loose these huge raging fists that consistantly hit in the 400s and higher.

Havent had anything that bad since though.

I still can't see us being doomed anyplace in the future.

(Ah yes now its time for the 50s, and the land of suicidal black mages, and blue mages (read:self destruct))

[Standablaze]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

Lazy Red Mages make Clown sadface. D:

When you're partying with your DRK, why don't you (assuming you're subbing WAR) pop Defender and remove your equip that lowers defense? It'd make you last a bit longer for the THF to trick onto the PLD.

Also, I dunno what sort of strategy you usually do with a THF in the party, but with a good PLD the THF can just SATA onto you throughout the fight without worrying about pulling too much hate. If holding hate through a huge damage SC and an AM Burst is possible, then holding it through a SATA should be a walk in the park. If worse comes to worse, your PLD can just smack it with their shield and turn it back around.

Thats been the plan so far Its still a bit dodgy though for the sake of hitting the mob a few hundred hit points when I can get a MNK or RNG to do even more, at these levels (50-60), granted, they will get hate easier though. With Defender up, and DEF gear on, I can't do my job, and to be quite honest, within the same time frame, I hit more with a few attacks than the SATA pulled off (90-100 per hit, and I dont miss a lot.)

In saying all this, THFs are pretty rare in PLD-tank parties. I've partied with two or three through the 50s. It seems once they hit 37 they die down, and once they hit 45, theres even less, which brings to question. Paladins doomed? I would say THFs are even lesser in numbers than Paladins

[dirtyclown]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

There doesn't seem to be a shortage of Paladins on Bismarck, at least in my experience. We're like roaches, we crawl around in your kitchen at night.

[Justanotherface]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

I'm glad someone bothered to point this post out to me...

Maju, I left that party that day because the party you formed had no chance of xping correctly on anything, let alone marids. It was a waste of my time, and quite franky, I didn't have time to waste.

Don't get me wrong, PLD is a useful job for end-game.. and I've said nothing bad about your job. I just don't think it's prudent for me to spend my time in a party making 6k/hr, when I can be refreshing a manaburn, or hasting a meleeburn for 8-10k/hr. With the little freetime I get outside of my Dynamis, Limbus, and HNM shells, I like to xp my RDM as quickly as it can be XPed.

By all means, complain all you want about me.. I'm such a horrible person for pointing out that your job is solely to sit there and get hit, while keeping hate. Something a ninja can do while doing damage in the process. For HNMing, PLDs are useful.. for xping, NINs are useful because they keep their hate equally through vokes and damage.. not through cures and flashes. I personally don't feel (because you always asked for haste) that you were worth 80 mp every 3 minutes, when refresh only ticked me back 180 mp over that time frame.

As for the WHMs preferring PLDs, I think you people should be committed. I don't understand how you can say a PLD is better to xp with at higher levels... I'm a 75 WHM, 75 BLM, and 69 RDM, and as a WHM, I heal meleeburns. I've done both kinds.. with and without paladins, and I've had to do more work, and burn more MP with paladins, while not being able to haste everyone. If I only have to worry about my melees taking damage every blue moon, I'm more free to toss hastes, cure statuses, and REST between fights... I can't understand how that's a bad thing.

[tvalenti]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

I have known jaf for awhile and pt'd with him many times. also camped alot of hnm's and ran thru dynamis w. him. He has also played many lvls and im sure he knows when to leave and when to stick it out. maybe it was just ur party setup or something idk.... but when he has little time as it is to lvl up because of all the ls events i dont blame him for leaving.

[nazlfrag]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

I hear things get really good concerning the elemental ninjutsu in the 40s when you get the Ni-line, but honestly, if they didn't use it then, why use it now?

I'm not a ninja <.< but I have partied with many. A ninja could awnser better, but here goes.. At 40, jobs start getting their more powerful abilities and weaponskills, making the NINs hate-holding job harder. The elemental wheel might not do great damage (the Ni level doesn't improve it much) but it gives decent hate(so I've heard). The Ni line of enfeebles are very strong on the hate grabbing, and potent at enfeebling, but short-lived compared to mage equivalents. (these annoy me a little as a RDM. We get shafted from using our only A rated skill. Where's my Paralyze II huh?)

I like ninjas that spam the wheel, though they are a rarity. It shows a dedication to play the job to its fullest. As mentioned, with a good NIN a RDM doesn't have much to do. Enfeebles are taken care of by the NIN, curing is almost non-existant, leaving a few party buffs, dispel and an enfeeble or two like gravity.

Instead, I try sticking my elemental enfeebles, and try to time them with the wheel (if you think timing a MB is tricky, try this for fun ^^). If things are going really smooth, I'll even try to free nuke a little (timed with the wheel again). Of course, this is dead last priority, but sometimes with a good NIN there is simply nothing else to be doing (well except melee, but I won't go there).

For the whole NIN vs. PLD thing, I read somewhere else 'A good ninja will never be hurt and occasionaly lose hate, a good paladin will never lose hate and occasionaly be hurt.' or something similar (I mean hurt as in 'in the red'). Sounds good to me, they are both the best tanks - one best at not getting hurt, the other best at not losing hate.

[dirtyclown]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

I'm glad someone bothered to point this post out to me...

Maju, I left that party that day because the party you formed had no chance of xping correctly on anything, let alone marids. It was a waste of my time, and quite franky, I didn't have time to waste.

Don't get me wrong, PLD is a useful job for end-game.. and I've said nothing bad about your job. I just don't think it's prudent for me to spend my time in a party making 6k/hr, when I can be refreshing a manaburn, or hasting a meleeburn for 8-10k/hr. With the little freetime I get outside of my Dynamis, Limbus, and HNM shells, I like to xp my RDM as quickly as it can be XPed.

By all means, complain all you want about me.. I'm such a horrible person for pointing out that your job is solely to sit there and get hit, while keeping hate. Something a ninja can do while doing damage in the process. For HNMing, PLDs are useful.. for xping, NINs are useful because they keep their hate equally through vokes and damage.. not through cures and flashes. I personally don't feel (because you always asked for haste) that you were worth 80 mp every 3 minutes, when refresh only ticked me back 180 mp over that time frame.

As for the WHMs preferring PLDs, I think you people should be committed. I don't understand how you can say a PLD is better to xp with at higher levels... I'm a 75 WHM, 75 BLM, and 69 RDM, and as a WHM, I heal meleeburns. I've done both kinds.. with and without paladins, and I've had to do more work, and burn more MP with paladins, while not being able to haste everyone. If I only have to worry about my melees taking damage every blue moon, I'm more free to toss hastes, cure statuses, and REST between fights... I can't understand how that's a bad thing.

SPOILERS: You fail at Red Mage.