The end Game PLD role in Melee burn parties?

[Khevn]

I guess, what I'm asking is what can we as PLD's do to market ourselves as a functioning DD support in non-linear parties? Because, we're obviously, at this point in time, not considered up to par in this aspect. What would be considered correct equipment to increase our DD role to a point where we put out beneficial numbers, what Wep skills do we need to make ourselves more well rounded for multiple melee party types (Sword, GS, Staff, clubs) so we can Skill chain and not limit ourselves to specific burn types, and maybe a how to on correct party etiquette. I get the feeling that alot of PLD's and those around us are limiting us and our abilities do to Historical themes and class stereotypes. So Personally, I think we're pidgeon holing ourselves into beleiving that we're walls, we'll always be walls and walls are the only thing we can do.

If your a PLD like me whose seen signifgant drops in EXP groups after lvl 75, or your another job class with positive theories with how this can be accomplished, Post up! I believe there has got to be a way to make us more viable in a changing end game exp gaming enviroment that doesn't require nerfing of others or leveling a less desirable class. I think we as a community should be looking for a way to conform to the now and exploit it. If we can get enough info maybe we can create a FAQ that can benefit all end game PLD's.

[csBahamut]

Re: The end Game PLD role in Melee burn parties?

Lots and lots of gear. Gear for defensive tanking when needed. Gear for offensive tanking, especially on T-VT mobs in WS-burn parties. And gear for strait DD'ing (with a bit of side curing/flashing).

Having all these options, and showing how well you can do in all three will get you those invites.

[Icemage]

Re: The end Game PLD role in Melee burn parties?

PLD/NIN. Get a good greatsword and some attack gear and pretend you're a DD (I joke, but actually Paladins turn out quite good damage with a greatsword). You won't be tanking in a burn party anyway, and you can offer backup cures too.


Icemage

[csBahamut]

Re: The end Game PLD role in Melee burn parties?

If you're going to use a Greatsword (which I think just doesn't cut it), you're better off going /WAR or /THF.

PLD/NIN is for dual swords, specifically Company Sword + Joyuese (I haven't heard much about Justice Sword + Joyuese). With full sword merits, Sword skill = 276+16 = 292. Compare that with a base Greatsword skill of 250. Even with full Great sword merits, you can't get above 266, which is still less than PLD's base staff/club skill of 269. So with full sword merits, there's a diferent of 42 skill. That's several levels worth of difference! It's also about 42 atk/acc that you lose by using a Greatsword over Sword. PLD doesn't have all those nifty +atk/acc gear and job abilities like WAR or DRK. So every bit of acc and attack you can get is important. Plus, the more natural acc you have, the less +acc gear you need. This let's you go with +atk/STR/haste gear, instead of piling on the +acc to hit with a GS. With my current set of DD gear, I can get away with meat on T-VTs. With a GS, I'd have to use sushi just to build TP, but then my regular hits would suck, and WS would be underpowered to what they can really do. In my opinion, GS is just a toy for PLD.

[Kirk]

Re: The end Game PLD role in Melee burn parties?

If you're going to use a Greatsword (which I think just doesn't cut it), you're better off going /WAR or /THF.

PLD/NIN is for dual swords, specifically Company Sword + Joyuese (I haven't heard much about Justice Sword + Joyuese). With full sword merits, Sword skill = 276+16 = 292. Compare that with a base Greatsword skill of 250. Even with full Great sword merits, you can't get above 266, which is still less than PLD's base staff/club skill of 269. So with full sword merits, there's a diferent of 42 skill. That's several levels worth of difference! It's also about 42 atk/acc that you lose by using a Greatsword over Sword. PLD doesn't have all those nifty +atk/acc gear and job abilities like WAR or DRK. So every bit of acc and attack you can get is important. Plus, the more natural acc you have, the less +acc gear you need. This let's you go with +atk/STR/haste gear, instead of piling on the +acc to hit with a GS. With my current set of DD gear, I can get away with meat on T-VTs. With a GS, I'd have to use sushi just to build TP, but then my regular hits would suck, and WS would be underpowered to what they can really do. In my opinion, GS is just a toy for PLD.

I agree with this. I recently pt'd with a DD Pld. He was /nin and was using dual swords, SH, Turban i think. Anyway, his damage wasn't spectacular by any means compared to the other DD's I was nin/war and we had a war/nin as well, but he we doing ok and his flash a and cures were helpful at times.

In terms of DD, I would give him a C+ maybe. Not great, but totally not being a leech either. If you decide to go this route, be prepared to form your own pt's. Few would take a PLD/NIN over a WAR/NIN or NIN/WAR and there are always tons of them seeking for tp burners.

[Icemage]

Re: The end Game PLD role in Melee burn parties?

I've had PLD/NINs with greatswords in a couple of merit burn parties. The damage wasn't anything to really write home about, but the backup cures were definitely appreciated. I agree that Company Sword + Joyeuse would be a good combination, although I would point out that Spinning Slash is very much stronger than Savage Blade. It'd be interesting to see what the difference in damage parses out to.

Realistically, though, with a RDM in a burn party, a PLD becomes more of a healer with damage rather than the other way around. The damage is important, but it's not as pertinent as relieving some of the pressure off your (usually) overworked RDM + BRD.


Icemage

[Credos]

Re: The end Game PLD role in Melee burn parties?

TP gain on GSWD is too slow for a good TP burn PT. This is why you see DRK/NIN uses axes and not GSWD or Scythe.

If you sub NIN you dual weild, pretty much end of story. If you want to use two hand weapon use /THF sub.

[tdh]

Re: The end Game PLD role in Melee burn parties?

I've partied with a PLD/NIN once. He was pretty well equiped, but I can't really speak on how much DD he did. No parser for PS2, and we were fighting Imps. So the NIN tank yielded to Garuda who tanked fights after 1k+ Predator Claws. So the kills were really fast. But I do recall some decent Swift Blade numbers.

I did a merit/EXP party last night, and honestly the only PLD I saw seeking at the time was a little low for where we going. There seems to be an abundance of NINs for parties these days, which didn't seem to be the case when I was Lv.72. AS a RDM I've started to do TP Burn Merit parties, but I do sometimes build more conventional parties, and it's suddenly "Where did all the PLDs go?" And WHMs for that matter.

[Khevn]

Re: The end Game PLD role in Melee burn parties?

All right I'm taking all the info so far and i'm going to organize it, If anyone can give there take on body equipment, IE scorp harness over hauby, sniper over flame and prefered back pieces, when each is best implemented that would be much appreciated. I would like to get together with other PLD's and try out different equips and do some number crunching, weigh some benefits over outputs. But this will take some planning and organization so if others would like to work with me on this, feel free to send me an E-mail at Ch1m3ra69@yahoo.com. Like the Hawthorne theory states, processes improve because they are observed, so if we can try a few things and get some hard facts then we can seek improvements.

[csBahamut]

Re: The end Game PLD role in Melee burn parties?

I've had PLD/NINs with greatswords in a couple of merit burn parties. The damage wasn't anything to really write home about, but the backup cures were definitely appreciated. I agree that Company Sword + Joyeuse would be a good combination, although I would point out that Spinning Slash is very much stronger than Savage Blade. It'd be interesting to see what the difference in damage parses out to.

Savage Blade is utter crap. It's only good for making a Skillchain. A 300% Savage Blade ~= 100% Vorpal Blade or Swift Blade. Vorpal Blade is the best WS for a PLD. Swift Blade is only better if your accuracy is bad. I don't have any numbers offhand for PLD/NIN Vorpal Blade in exp, but I do remember getting 400+ pretty consistantly in Dynamis (no BRD). In my DD tanking setup (PLD/WAR) using a Joyuese (a lot lower base damage than a Company Sword in a full party), I was getting 300-600( no BRD) (the one 600+ suprised me). I think Vorpal Blade was in the 400-800 damage range as PLD/NIN, depending on if there's a BRD or not. It would be interesting to compare how I do to a WAR/NIN, NIN/WAR, and MNK/whatever. I just get burned out by Burn parties really easily, so I merit like once a week at most. Plus, I don't run parsers or anything else.

Basically, Vorpal Blade from a PLD/NIN will be around the same as a Spinning Slash from a PLD/WAR, but DoT will be better from PLD/NIN who uses a Joyuese. That's because of double attack from Joyuese. Can't forget that a GS weilding PLD could not use meat either, further decreasing DoT.

[Maju]

Re: The end Game PLD role in Melee burn parties?

/NIN is only good if you off-hand a Joyeuse, right? I don't think PLD/NIN could outdamage a PLD/WAR without it simply because Attack Bonus, Double Attack and Berserker combined are way better than DW2.

[Khevn]

Re: The end Game PLD role in Melee burn parties?

I think the two options would be very dependent on party builds, A faster chaining party will benefit more from quick in a hurry TP, while a slower party would benefit from higher out put per TP use. So knowing your party and being flexible will put you at a great advantage.

[Aeni]

Re: The end Game PLD role in Melee burn parties?

PLD/WHM + RDM/BRD = awesome combination for TP burn PTs. If too much curing makes PLD steals hate ... so wtf? He can tank D: PLDs have autorefresh and a lot of PLDs in meripo have access to VC/RC. Ballads and a refresh works wonders here and with a hasted flash can help melees with recasting utsu ichi/ni (Since a lot of melees sub NIN) PLDs can also melee if they want. My favorite is the gsword capped PLD. Puts out a decent amount of damage and you won't ever see a WHM melee in meripo PTs ever (Unless they're named Kona and has a WHM Hauby as a /NIN and spams Hexastrike faster than a DRK/THF can get TP up for Ground Strike >.> )

[Lmnop]

Re: The end Game PLD role in Melee burn parties?

just a couple things:

1) yes, w/out Joyeuse, /war should outdamage a /nin. Even w/out Joyeuse though, most burn party layouts really function best when all the melee are breathing shihei.

2) drk/nin with scythe > drk/nin with axes, typically. the 20ish inherent acc/attack advantage is just too profound. big delay weapons get big tp so it all comes out even. However, dual wielding stat bonuses are absurd. no 2 handed weapon has even 1/3rd the stat boosts that a Juggernaught has (short of relic), let alone pairing the juggy with a high damage main hand for stupid high damage.

[Jei]

Re: The end Game PLD role in Melee burn parties?

I saw a shout in whitegate once forming a PLD burn PT. I think the set up he was looking for was like this.
pld/nin x4
pld/whm
pld/brd
No idea how it worked out. Should work fine maybe.