PLD Hate Control

[WishMaster3K]

Re: PLD Hate Control

Karinya: How does Defender become detrimental? I was under the impression that it would help us out in the long run, mainly because it's constant, and we can constantly increase our Defense by (what I think is about-) 33ish%

Or is it that it's not really that noticable on certain mobs?

Double Post Edited:
Nvm, PTT just answered >.> thankx

[Murphie]

Re: PLD Hate Control

On Shield Bash: Karinya brings up a very useful point: If you're fighting spellchucking mobs, save Shield Bash for when they pull out their super-spells. This is -incredibly- useful and lifesaving if you get into a bones party in Garliage Citadel's basement during your mid-50's. Getting Tornado'd and Earthquake'd and whatever else the Mage Skeletons can do HURTS very much at that level.

So true. That and Flat Blade saved my life (and the life of my party) several times throughout my levels.

Defender: Another useful point. Useful for Dynamis and HNM tanking, Defender can hurt your hate keeping by A) Lowering your damage output to something pitiful, especially on crabs, and B) Can perhaps cause you to take so little damage, that your Cure-hate takes a nosedive. It's situational, but can come in very handy nonetheless.

I think I can count on one hand the number of times I used Defender in an exp party. Definitely situational. Good tool when used correctly though.

Finally... the poor view of Paladins is both a blessing and a curse. On the one hand, we get passed up for the first Melee/Ninja or Ninja/Melee that comes along on most things. On the other hand... When you do get invited, and you do a good job tanking, oddly enough, people will remember you. It's surprising and wonderful at the same time <:O

You make a really good point here. The good PLD people party with will be a lot more memorable than a bunch of mediocre tanks. Then again, the same applies to NIN. I remember my exceptional NIN tanks as much as the exceptional PLDs.

[Armando]

Re: PLD Hate Control

Flash is AWSOMe. 25 MP is basically what Cure II is, and I can dodge about 1-2 hits. Also, like said before, you can Flash and Cure easier because they'll miss.

Flash lasts 12-13 seconds, it can last through 3 attack rounds (sometimes avoiding 4 attacks if one of those attack rounds happens to Double Attack.) Awesome indeed ^^

As for me, I don't have a set pattern, as each party is different. I generally start off fights with Provoke + Flash (Provoke first because it's instant and doesn't have that 2-3 second wait spells do afterwards,) then reuse them ASAP, throwing out Cures in between to hold hate. I save my JAs for when I need a big hate spike (SATA'd Skillchains on a DD, AM bursts, etc.) Of course, there are exceptions to everything; if my hate level is stable, and I'm expecting a big hate spike within ~10 seconds of Provoke/Flash being ready, I'll generally wait until the hate spike happens. If I feel I need more hate, I'll hold off on Flash to let myself take some damage and be able to cure early, or cast Flash early (while the pull is still coming in) so it wears off sooner. If I'm expecting a TP move that's Flashable, I'll be sure my timer is up for that, etc. However, I'd like to talk about some finer nuances of Shield Bash and Sentinel. Let me quote myself from the "Hate Tool Power" thread...

Slip: I consider Shield Bash to be equal in enmity to Sentinel for all intents and purposes. I haven't done any controlled testing on it, but at the very least I can say they're both potent (i.e. Shield Bash is not weak, like your post implies.) The main difference, to me, is their applications.

Shield Bash will always grab hate only from a single target, but the target doesn't have to be on your hate list - if it's not on your hate list, it'll put you on it. Sentinel, being a self-buff, will generate hate for an indefinite number of mobs; however, they must be on your hate list first (just like with Invincible/Rampart/Warcry.) Also, Shield Bash requires you to be in meleeing range and with the target within your field of vision; Sentinel (and the other self-buffs) will grab hate from as big a range as the mob can track your actions, provided it's on your hate list. That being said, Shield Bash is best used as the first resort against single targets, and Sentinel is best used for controlling multiple mobs, especially those you're not currently engaging (when that hard-to-sleep bat link goes for the BLM, Sentinel will put it in its place again without you having to move, face the bat, or even know where it is.)

In the event that I need to use one of my JAs, I like to toss out Shield Bash first; if a link happens, it's easy for me to put myself on its hate list (<stnpc> a Provoke/Flash on it, if they're both down just toss a Banish I, or simply Cure I the BLM/RDM/BRD after he/she puts the link to sleep) and then I can use Sentinel to generate hate towards both targets.

Another thing: if the mob turns from a hate spike so big that you'd need to use more than Provoke + Cure + Flash or you'd have to resort to blowing TWO JAs just to turn it back on you, just use Cover. Cover, hit it some, buy some time, Cure, Flash, Provoke, and you may end up saving your 5-minute JAs for a more needed situation. Plus, Cover generates some hate just from using it as well. On the other hand, Cover is a very valuable tool, so don't blow it if you could easily turn the mob with something else!

Oh, and yes, while it's unreliable for Bomb Toss, for some reason Shield Bash always seems to stop pells. I don't think it's failed me so far.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: PLD Hate Control

But WHMs hate working hard. That's why they choose WHM -.-.

What do you mean by that? Every career WHM I know would feel horrible if people die on their watch, and would rather get themselves killed than failing to cure a party member.

In fact, every random WHM or RDM we picked up so far in my 5/6 static party tend over cure, and never under cure; the healers on my server are hardly lazy bums. (Even if they do make holding on to the mobs harder for me...)

[Slip]

Re: PLD Hate Control

Yeah, Whm is definitely not a job for the lazy. Between Cures, Buffs, Debuffs and Status removal a decent whm is as busy or more than a Pld is. Whm, again like Pld, is one of the jobs where it's real easy to see when somebody sucks at it or isn't putting much effort into it.

[Keon]

Re: PLD Hate Control

Whm, again like Pld, is one of the jobs where it's real easy to see when somebody sucks at it or isn't putting much effort into it.

Very true. I have pt with the good, the bad, and the ugly. The job of healing/tanking is not for the closed minded. As pld we are the first to battle and first to die in order to protect pt. The whm is keeping us alive and has to be willing to drop benediction to save pt, even if will cost them their life. That is why I love invincible for ultimate hate to save our fragile mage.

One a side note, thank you to all who have responded to this thread.

[samarium]

Re: PLD Hate Control

What do you mean by that? Every career WHM I know would feel horrible if people die on their watch, and would rather get themselves killed than failing to cure a party member.

In fact, every random WHM or RDM we picked up so far in my 5/6 static party tend over cure, and never under cure; the healers on my server are hardly lazy bums. (Even if they do make holding on to the mobs harder for me...)

<- career whm

It's pretty rare when I have a party member die on me given a competent tank.

You think my job's easy? All you paladins have to do is hit Flash every minute and provoke every 30 seconds, heal yourself when you get hit, and swing your sword. Sounds pretty cakewalky to me.

I never heal my Paladins until they hit orange (about 50%), unless the mob has a particularly nasty 1-shot TP move.

I also always try to alternate Flash with my paladin unless I'm busy doing something else and lose track of my timers - he's Hasted and counts down faster than I do, and most of the time if I start having to sling heals or status cures or refresh my enhancements I end up Flashing just as his timer runs out and block him out of it, so I skip one.

-sam

P.S. As indicated by the winky face, the comment about pld being easy was just to show how silly generalizations that end in -.- are. I know how involved tanking can be!