Question to all the meat shields out there-

[galkaBST]

Hello,
Im an aspiring 72 galka warrior, soon going war/mnk once I can get in my unicorn harness for tanking purposes. I've seen the endless explanation on how Vit / Def works, but I was wondering if anyone could let me know what their defense / vit is as a 75ish pld? I think I can hold hate through damage/boost pretty comfortably with about 103 total vit... probably around 500ish def (which is probably on the low side compared to endgame plds). Planning to use this setup for tanking merit parties where shadows wont hold out, like AOE, ga spells, etc. and various other LS events. Figured if I wanted to know about meat tanking, this is the place to turn . Thanks in advance.

[iDrizzle]

Re: Question to all the meat shields out there-

The problem is, endgame pld look for hp > vit > def so most 75 plds that are tanking gods/hnm will have a nice chunk of HP gear.

I think on my pld (haven't actually had all my gear on for a long time because I find pld boring at times lol) I have 77+40 vit, and I think with defender on (since it has a timer that is the same amount as how long it stays on it is always on) I hit around 650-700 armor. Like I said though, most plds you'll find endgame will focus a lot more on HP than anything else. So I think my HP is like 1869 with food, which isn't as high as I'd like, but still not bad all things considering heh.

However, since you're talking about LS parties it is a whole different scenario. My pld is setup for HNM tanking, but if I was going to merit I"d have like 77+45 vit, same def, and only like 1700 HP with food. I'd also have about +9 more enmity though. Since tanking gods enmity really isn't an issue, because every DD will SATA onto the two tanks, you don't use much of that either.

I think a war/mnk could tank just fine. With 103 vit you're holding up pretty much to what I have now, and since you're not a mage class, you're not hindered by the MP issue like a galka pld is. The def really isn't that low, the only problem is you probably wouldn't be using defender, since it shoots down your attack, which you'd need as a warrior tanking. I"m also assuming you'd either use a one hander + shield or a gaxe? This would also effect def. If you used like a joyeuse + koenig, or an axe + shield, you'd get more def, and the chance to block some dmg. However, you wouldn't be able to keep up with the dmg as much as if you'd be able to do steel cyclone lol. So those are just a few things you could look into. I like the not relying on solely war/nin though ^^ props

[galkaBST]

Re: Question to all the meat shields out there-

Thanks for the good words / advice. As a galka war/mnk with my gear I should have around ~1600-1700 hp without food, but hopefully I wont be needing that much in an exp pt XD. For a weapon I'm using Gawaines Axe, great axe with +5 vit on it. I'll probably end up using full break for most situations since my main goal is to make stuff dead quicker, and without all my normal acc gear on it's one of the few ways Ill be able to hit to hold hate. Another question though, would you take +4 vit in a ring slot or a jelly ring in its place? Also, what would be an acceptable def number to have while tanking at this level with my ~100 vit? If I can I want to avoid using defender. I think I can hit 400 without food or defender pretty easily, maybe I should gear more into this? Thanks again

[Davitron3000]

Re: Question to all the meat shields out there-

Another question though, would you take +4 vit in a ring slot or a jelly ring in its place?

Situational in my opinion. I would use Jelly Ring over +4 Vit Ring unless you are
fighting something that casts really nasty magic. I differ with iDrizzle a bit about
enmity though, and I have pretty much replaced my Jelly Ring with a Hercules Ring.
I just don't like the +5% Magic Damage on the Jelly Ring. (Also I seem to have
become an +enmity whore lately). I have found that with a Hercules Ring + Sattva
Ring + High Breathe Mantle I can keep the mob's attention planted firmly on
myself. Mob on me = DD hold back less, Mob dies faster, I take less overall damage.
Also consider a Bomb Queen Ring for situations that you feel you need that extra
boost of hit points, but 1600-1700 should be plenty to keep from getting one
shotted.

All the above is for HNM tanking. I am maybe not understanding what you are
wanting to do (because I really can't think of a reason you wouldn't want to
go DD gear in a merit party).

Like iDrizzle, I am very happy to see you trying to do something besides sub /nin.
A Warrior in my LS has been talking about this alot lately, we just gotta help him
get some Unicorn stuff. Good luck to you, and please post your results.

[iDrizzle]

Re: Question to all the meat shields out there-

ATM my gear goes a little like this...

Joyeuse and koenig shield for merit, earth staff for hnms, koenig helm, iron musk gorget, pigeon X2, gallant chest, koenig gloves, jelly ring, bomb queen ring (hercules ring for any fire mobs, and if I"m in red/meriting), knightly mantle, warwolf, gallant legs, and crimson feet.

That setup isn't enmity friendly, but I've also merited some enmity (>.> which sucks when you try and lvl a support job lol).

I do agree with the above poster saying enmity is important. I've just found that while tanking things in a full alliance it is much easier if you just rely on the SATA to keep hate, being the dd party will have TP almost every 10 seconds if played right. Then you voke every 30, flash every 45, and use your job abilities in between. As well most tanks will start out with at least a ~700 spirits, sometimes a spirits plus invinsible.

Back to some more of your concerns. I honeslty don't like vit rings endgame, simply because there are so many rings to choose from. Jelly ring, bomb queen, bloodbead, etc. Also, since you are going to base your tanking on dmg, maybe look into a sniper + jelly, and then macro in two str rings, two vit rings, or one of each for WS? I know most warrior ws are based on str, but I think steel cyclone is 50% vit, 50% str, so maybe keep on the sniper + jelly, which would give you a little more acc, and also negate 5% dmg, and then macro in 5 str and 5 vit plus other gear for the ws? Also, Genbu's Kabuto gives something nuts like 50 HP and 15 vit...which would be awesome for a tanking warrior.

PS, Davitron, if you're talking about Faelorn being that warrior slap him for me...because fae always deserves to be slapped lol

[Davitron3000]

Re: Question to all the meat shields out there-

PS, Davitron, if you're talking about Faelorn being that warrior slap him for me...because fae always deserves to be slapped lol

It is not Fae, but you are correct he does deserve to be slapped, lol.

[galkaBST]

Re: Question to all the meat shields out there-

It's not that I want to go un-DD, it's that I want to be able to tank hits and work in counter as a hate-keeping device with added damage. My plan is to make DD tanking not dependant on shadows- open with a full break, have the mob dead before it has a chance to do too much (my theory being that by opening with an effective break, the mob dies faster than if all member are war/nin, or whatever). Ive noticed in most merit pts in the new areas that shadows aren't really _that_ needed, we usually have the mobs dead within 4-5 party attack rounds. Just looking for alternatives to war/nin ^^. I think it could really work, and with war/mnk, the hate can be concentrated instead of bouncing. While moving mobs dont present a problem most of the time, I like my mobs to stand still and die instead ^^. Plus, while boost is a hate keeping device at lower levels, at level 75 it could give me ~50 attack per boost, which I consider pretty damn incredible. It's like sushi while eating meat, from a statistical standpoint. Anyhow, Ill post results as soon as I get in my unicorn harness. War/nin is overused, and while it is pretty incredible when all merited out, I'm going to see what I can do with war/mnk and great axe fully merited (and if I cant get pts to do it, Ill just solo it on my bst and transfer the points XD)

[ZQM]

Re: Question to all the meat shields out there-

For things that hit hard (A.K.A. end-game activities), you are better off using Darksteel+1 (The level 65 set with -physical damage) then DEF/VIT equipment. This will reduce damage more then DEF/VIT will in those slots. The only downfall being you look really ugly, aswell as being a rare set. You'll either need to camp the AH or make friends with a high level smither.

For EXP parties and other things, you shouldn't worry about DEF/VIT very much. Things die fast regardless. It's better to go on the full offensive. You'll actually probably end up taking less damage in a full DD setup then deffensive setup do to the mob dieing faster.

Hell, even on some endgame mobs, it's best to go full offensive. I tanked Fafnir as WAR/MNK with AA Rot, and I used things like O-hat (0 deffense) and kept Berserk up to keep phenomimal hate. Ofcoarse this is with AA Rot, but Fafnir still hits for 300+ damage in an offensive set up and AA Rot is not very reliable at all.

Although it's by far not the best, it's a really fun combo.

[galkaBST]

Re: Question to all the meat shields out there-

Just a quick update, no unicorn harness on yet, still 1/2 way to 73, so Im lacking a bit, but I thought Id keep this alive for testing

Went to Caedera Mire to do some imps for exp with a war,war,war,drk,whm,rdm setup, and I ended up being the tank after some convincing /grin. Stacked on VIT til I had ~90, which is on the low end for me, and ate sushi because I didnt have my def food with me >.> lol, note to self. Anyway, /mnk tanking worked out perfect because of imps silencega ability, that easily went off once per battle. Hate was held really solidly, and I was taking on average about 50-80 damage a hit without defender (without my def gear on, this was about 150-180 a hit). Was holding hate against wars in full pimp gear- crit merits + joytoy, etc, with my great axe.

At first I thought maybe it was going to be too much of an MP drain on the mages, but then I realized that they didnt have to erase / silena 4 other people for bounce tanking, mp management was fine. Always helps to have rdm hit the paralyze and blind at the begining, tanking is a breeze. I'll post more once I'm in the full setup I'm working out, and I'll move on to some harder hitting mobs.

[Slip]

Re: Question to all the meat shields out there-

{Good Job!}

I'm not sure sushi was the wrong way to go there either. The damage you were taking sounds pretty reasonable so not too critical to buff your def further. On the flip side you really don't want to miss much with a slow delay, high impact weapon like a Great Axe. A few whiffs when the other wars are going crit and double attack happy and hate could be a bear to keep.

[Stromgarde]

Re: Question to all the meat shields out there-

Sushi also increases the occurance of counters somehow, although I'm not sure of the exact mechanic behind it.

[Lmnop]

Re: Question to all the meat shields out there-

don't quote me on this but it seems to be something like....

First there's a check to see whether or not Counter activates. if it activates, it makes a normal attack roll (acc vs evasion) and if successful, you'll counter the attack. So it's luck + acc.

So yea, that's what I gather but I could be wrong.

Next, I'm not so sure why the Unicorn Harness will improve your performance. The only real advantage I see in it over AF body is the +9 or so more defense. The added HP is meh and the VIT+ will stop working when you fall under 60% hp, no?

Well, that's the 2nd thing I've mentioned in this post of things I came across but never saw in-depth testing on, so I'ma just hit the submit reply button now.

[galkaBST]

Re: Question to all the meat shields out there-

You're right about the 6 VIT, but hopefully I wont be falling that low on a normal basis in exp pts. The other nice part of it is the regen, which, while it doesnt restore a ton of HP, every little bit helps. Put that with the DEF, and I think I'll see at least a bit of a boost in overall performance over my AF. Well, that and I love any HP I can get To me this is really an experament, but so far it seems at least a little promising. Once I hit 75 I'm going to grab Genbu's helm and some other stuff, hopefully get my VIT up to 120ish, boosting my chakras to 250~ hp a pop.

All this said, when things start hitting for 300 a hit with my normal HNM stuff, Ill prolly be forced to sub /nin for damage reduction again. However, if I can find a way to war/mnk tank there, Ill do it. Maybe set up a AA rotation as has been stated above, creating a different kind of support-nessesary tank (like war/nin needs stun, flash, haste, etc). I'll keep this updated.

Edit: Just thought about this a bit more. If I sport my Herc Ring while Im wearing harness I'll either have +6 vit 1 hp/tick or 4hp/tick regen active at all times, not too bad, especially for farming.

[Lmnop]

Re: Question to all the meat shields out there-

interesting tidbit about the regen trick.

If you have the resources, there's always AF+1 if you wanna Vit whore it.

[Elesirdur]

Re: Question to all the meat shields out there-

In full Vitality setup and a Tavnazian Taco I'm sitting at 75+71 VIT (including 2 VIT attribute merits). Normally, in XP setups I'll drop about 5 VIT to use a Shield Torque and Boxer's Mantle to replace the I.M. Gorget and Knightly Mantle from my VIT setup. To put into perspective, a regular hit from IT++ Kindred NMs in Ulegarand Range will range from about 70-100 dmg, and criticals will hit me for no more than 160. Now, that's with Defender up and a total Defense (armor, food, ProIV, and Defender) or around 800. I've seen other PLD's get hit for an easy 200+ on criticals and about 150/hit on regular strikes so stacking it up can make a big difference. Sure, I'm hitting those Kindred mobs for like 10-40 a hit, but I'm not draining my WHMs mp in two fights.

In any event, stacking VIT will make a significant dent in the amount of damage you'll take over time during XP or even longer BCNM runs. But, as you can find in all the threads like this you want HP over VIT or Defense for Gods, HNMs, etc.