Hate Tool Power

[Lmnop]

Re: Hate Tool Power

I wish there was a nice (non-condescending) way to tell every PLD I party with about the <stpc> tag. having a /ma "Cure" <stpc> macro to hit the puller who's at the bottom of white HP w/out regen or something... you know.

Icemage, do you happen to know abouts when that update could have happened about Sentinel? I've never doubted anything you posted for a second, but I can't believe something like that wouldn't slip past my sight.

[Armando]

Re: Hate Tool Power

Slip: I consider Shield Bash to be equal in enmity to Sentinel for all intents and purposes. I haven't done any controlled testing on it, but at the very least I can say they're both potent (i.e. Shield Bash is not weak, like your post implies.) The main difference, to me, is their applications.

Shield Bash will always grab hate only from a single target, but the target doesn't have to be on your hate list - if it's not on your hate list, it'll put you on it. Sentinel, being a self-buff, will generate hate for an indefinite number of mobs; however, they must be on your hate list first (just like with Invincible/Rampart/Warcry.) Also, Shield Bash requires you to be in meleeing range and with the target within your field of vision; Sentinel (and the other self-buffs) will grab hate from as big a range as the mob can track your actions, provided it's on your hate list. That being said, Shield Bash is best used as the first resort against single targets, and Sentinel is best used for controlling multiple mobs, especially those you're not currently engaging (when that hard-to-sleep bat link goes for the BLM, Sentinel will put it in its place again.)

If anyone wants to do actual testing to compare the hate quantities, I'll be looking forward to the results (I'm levelling RDM right now, sorry!)

Regarding Sentinel: I do believe I recall reading that in the patch notes years ago. When I'm not feeling lazy I'll try to dig it up at the official site.

<stnpc> rocks. I use it in practically all my macros. Even my WS macros (it comes in handy for links.) <stnpc> is a MUST for Cover in my opinion. Having a set macro with the player most likely to grab hate would be marginally faster, but when you need to Cover someone else...

EDIT: Oh, and Flash lasts 12-13 seconds unresisted. I don't know why you say it "knocks off 2-3 seconds off of the Provoke timer," Slip.

[samarium]

Re: Hate Tool Power

This is a great thread. I found myself wanting to do pld after an inspiring performance by one in an exp party couple days ago. All these hate-holding tips are exactly what I was looking for before I started the job!

Tarutaru pld ftw!

-sam

[Slip]

Re: Hate Tool Power

Slip: I consider Shield Bash to be equal in enmity to Sentinel for all intents and purposes. I haven't done any controlled testing on it, but at the very least I can say they're both potent (i.e. Shield Bash is not weak, like your post implies.) The main difference, to me, is their applications.

Interesting difference in our perceptions of it. Out of curiosity, which race are you? I'm wondering if a difference in our base stats may account for the difference in perceived hate level.

For example, if you're Elvaan, perhaps your higher Strength does more damage and yields more hate as a result (not the Shield bash is all that damaging but even a point or two extra may have a magnified effect).

Also to be fair, I haven't done any good rigourous scientific testing on the two of them, and they do seem close to each other even to me.

Shield Bash will always grab hate only from a single target, but the target doesn't have to be on your hate list - if it's not on your hate list, it'll put you on it. Sentinel, being a self-buff, will generate hate for an indefinite number of mobs; however, they must be on your hate list first (just like with Invincible/Rampart/Warcry.) Also, Shield Bash requires you to be in meleeing range and with the target within your field of vision; Sentinel (and the other self-buffs) will grab hate from as big a range as the mob can track your actions, provided it's on your hate list. That being said, Shield Bash is best used as the first resort against single targets, and Sentinel is best used for controlling multiple mobs, especially those you're not currently engaging (when that hard-to-sleep bat link goes for the BLM, Sentinel will put it in its place again.)
If anyone wants to do actual testing to compare the hate quantities, I'll be looking forward to the results (I'm levelling RDM right now, sorry!)

/Nods in agreement here. Ultimately whether they're exactly the same in aggro or slightly different, the way you use them makes each valuable in it's own set of situations.

EDIT: Oh, and Flash lasts 12-13 seconds unresisted. I don't know why you say it "knocks off 2-3 seconds off of the Provoke timer," Slip.

I wrote "times" - meaning refer back to what I had written about Provoke, knock 2-3 seconds off the time I feel a Provoke will hold a mob for and you'll have the time I feel a Flash will hold the mob for. Or in other words, Flash hate lasts just a little less than Provoke hate does.

I'd just like to remind PLDs, Cures can be cast on other players. Take THAT hate-grabbing BLM!

From last night:

Lesser Colibri hits Puller takes 100 damage
Lesser Colibri hits Puller takes 80 damage
Lesser Colibri hits Puller takes 92 damage
Lesser Colibri hits Puller takes 103 damage.
Slip begins casting Cure IV on Puller
Slip Casts Cure IV.
Puller regains 354 hp.
Slip uses Provoke on Lesser Colibri.
Whm>> Dammit are you stealing my job now! (said in jest)

The little birdies were barely scratching me in some of the fights but if I could drop a nice meaty cure on the puller on the way in that bird was mine from then on. Man did I miss our Brd who was absent for the night though. I've gotten lazy about timing my casts thanks to Carnage Elegy. Without that those birds were a real pain sometimes.

[EuphoricOni]

Re: Hate Tool Power

ok this is a now noobish question what does <stpc> target ? i can't even assume... i learned all my macroing abilities from a friend and he never mentioned that one but if it helps that will be a great thing to add to my arsenal ... please don't flame me for a silly question!! Thanks ^_^... Also thanks alot to Armondos input on the "Hate-List" topic its something i would vaguely thinkg of but would'nt really keep it in mind (being lvl 28 i really am not in multiple mob situations yet)

I wish there was a nice (non-condescending) way to tell every PLD I party with about the <stpc> tag. having a /ma "Cure" <stpc> macro to hit the puller who's at the bottom of white HP w/out regen or something... you know.

Just to further add to that from what i said above about cureing the the stpc command and just to make it seem as a courteous(sp.?) type thing imho if someone said somethin like that to me i would take it as help to not only me but to the pt so there is some pressure off the mages and i can keep hate on me as its meant to be ...

[Armando]

Re: Hate Tool Power

Interesting difference in our perceptions of it. Out of curiosity, which race are you? I'm wondering if a difference in our base stats may account for the difference in perceived hate level.

For example, if you're Elvaan, perhaps your higher Strength does more damage and yields more hate as a result (not the Shield bash is all that damaging but even a point or two extra may have a magnified effect).

Also to be fair, I haven't done any good rigourous scientific testing on the two of them, and they do seem close to each other even to me.

I AM Elvaan, but I'm pretty sure Shield Bash isn't influenced by any of the stats. I haven't done any testing either, it's just that in my experience Shield Bash has always been just as reliable for turning mobs as Sentinel has been. There could be a difference, they could be the same, but as far as I'm concerned they're close enough to use any (although, like I said, I'd give Shield Bash priority when fighting a single target.)

I wrote "times" - meaning refer back to what I had written about Provoke, knock 2-3 seconds off the time I feel a Provoke will hold a mob for and you'll have the time I feel a Flash will hold the mob for. Or in other words, Flash hate lasts just a little less than Provoke hate does.

Oh, ok. I understand now.

ok this is a now noobish question what does <stpc> target ? i can't even assume... i learned all my macroing abilities from a friend and he never mentioned that one but if it helps that will be a great thing to add to my arsenal ... please don't flame me for a silly question!! Thanks ^_^... Also thanks alot to Armondos input on the "Hate-List" topic its something i would vaguely thinkg of but would'nt really keep it in mind (being lvl 28 i really am not in multiple mob situations yet)

The <stpc> tag, when used as the target for spells and abilities, brings up the blue "target select" cursor you get when using spells and abilities from the normal menu, so that you can choose who/what you want to use it on. /ma "Cure III" <stpc> would let you choose between all nearby PCs, as opposed to /ma "Cure III" <me> or <p2>, which don't give you a choice. /ma "Cure III" <stpc> is a generally more useful macro, since it lets you heal anyone on the fly. Likewise, /ma "Flash" <stnpc> lets you choose from any nearby mobs (good for links.)

[EuphoricOni]

Re: Hate Tool Power

Alright thanks alot Armando for both replying to it promptly and not being mean about it ^_^ i will deff keep that in mind now ... and also Woot we made this thread 2 pages!!! /logout select character onitata /panic /joy /clap (taru dance) ok im really sorry about that one ... Small input of mine i really don't see anything that has affect my shield bashes yet but i, like everyone else, have by no means researched as soon as i get my modem working i will definitly remember to see any of this ... tomorrow they should fix me up ... and if any of you are from odin (have'nt been checkin sidebar) see you tomorrow night~!